ND Oversold on Kelly?

[goldandblue]

Of course we are going to be lights out next year, thats what every cubs fan says every august. Lets focus on this year. What can BK do to improve on this year with what he has. Im slightly concerned about no practice during the bye week. I understand the healing aspect of it, but i hope we dont come out flat.

We have practiced every week this season. Does it not seem that we always come out flat???

 

[IrishFan4L]

I don't think there is any reason to think that Golson would do anything but progress from last years season. I think most would agree that with Golson leading the offense we would put up a touchdown or 2 more then what we are averaging this year. Looking back at the Michigan game I think it's safe to say we convert a few more times on 3rd down & in the red zone which could ultimately change how michigan would try & attack our D. Same thing with OU. Look at Texas A&M without Johny Football I think it's safe to say they wouldn't be where they are right now and more like 5-5 maybe a game better or worse. I'm not saying Golson is as good as Manziel but there games are definitely similar and defenses have to scheme differently to stop a Mobil qb. It's definitely not to far fetched to think that Golson could out score opposing defenses with the athletes ND has on O which ultimately makes the D better.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Putting this here since this is the most recent thread I can recall discussing JuCos in. OFD's Eric Murtaugh just published a good article breaking down JuCos by conference/ team, and discussing why ND can't use them:

The research for this post began because I was curious about which programs have the most junior college transfers and also I wanted to know what the JUCO numbers look like in each of the 5 power conferences. It then expanded to to include a few more topics on maintaining roster health in college football.

If you're an Irish fan I'm sure you are aware that Notre Dame doesn't have any JUCO players on the football team and hasn't for many years. The reason is that anyone who is forced to go the JUCO route out of high school will be so far behind the junior-level course work at Notre Dame that it's virtually impossible to graduate over their final two years on campus. This also assumes an athlete will still want to stick with the Fighting Irish after 2 years anyway. In short, it's just not worth the coaching staff's time and the subsequent admissions headaches.

But other schools admit junior college transfers. Some use them to plug roster holes from time to time while others use the JUCO ranks as a first-stop in recruiting.

Here's a look at the total number of junior college transfers in each of the major football conferences:

...

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm curious, do Stanford, NW, Duke and others accpet Jucos???....

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm curious, do Stanford, NW, Duke and others accpet Jucos???....

According to Eric's research, probably not. Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt don't have a single JuCo on their rosters. Neither do most of the ACC, Duke included. So ND isn't alone in this restriction.

 

[ACamp1900]

According to Eric's research, probably not. Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt don't have a single JuCo on their rosters. Neither do most of the ACC, Duke included. So ND isn't alone in this restriction.

I would be curious to knwo what, if any, other schools actually have that as a set policy... also, ND does accept transfer students, do they not consider JC credits at all in that circumstance??

 

[IrishLax]

I'm curious, do Stanford, NW, Duke and others accpet Jucos???....

Duke = yes.
NW = no?
Stanford = no?

Someone confirm on Stanford/NW for me, but I can't remember them signing a JUCO since I've followed recruiting.

 

[IrishLax]

According to Eric's research, probably not. Stanford, Northwestern and Vanderbilt don't have a single JuCo on their rosters. Neither do most of the ACC, Duke included. So ND isn't alone in this restriction.

Duke has signed a JUCO before. I'm 100% positive. Let me look it up.

EDIT: Yup, here it is: Duke adds junior college transfer - ACC Blog - ESPN

 

[gkIrish]

I thought there were only 3 schools that have never signed a Juco. ND, USC, and ?

Could be completely wrong.

 

[IrishLax]

I thought there were only 3 schools that have never signed a Juco. ND, USC, and ?

Could be completely wrong.

That's never played an FCS. ND, USC, and UCLA.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Duke has signed a JUCO before. I'm 100% positive. Let me look it up.

EDIT: Yup, here it is: Duke adds junior college transfer - ACC Blog - ESPN

Doesn't really prove anything. ND's signed some JuCo-like transfers in the past, but upon closer inspection, each one was a special case.

Murtaugh has put forth some pretty compelling evidence that most football programs even remotely like ND's simply don't use JuCos to much effect.

 

[IrishLax]

Doesn't really prove anything. ND's signed some JuCo-like transfers in the past, but upon closer inspection, each one was a special case.

Murtaugh has put forth some pretty compelling evidence that most football programs even remotely like ND's simply don't use JuCos to much effect.

This isn't ancient history, it's 2009. With the same coach they have now. It was asked whether or not Duke signs JUCOs... the answer is yes, and very recently. He just finished his eligibility, and was an NFL caliber player... so he was one of (if the not the single best) player at Duke during his time.

When was the last time ND took a JUCO?

I don't think people believe ND should goes balls to the wall taking a half dozen JUCOs a year... but the fact remains that there would be very little harm done by taking a guy here or there, and we currently handicap ourselves.

 

[gkIrish]

That's never played an FCS. ND, USC, and UCLA.

Oh that's right. Thanks.

 

[ACamp1900]

And here is the thing... our very own IrishRamMan10 went to ND via transfer... it happens with the non-football student body... I don't understand the double standard... unless, I was unclear and the reg. admissions process never recognizes JC credits.

 

[irishfan]

I really don't see what the problem with JuCos are as long as their transcripts are in order (which is a massive hurdle). We've taken/offered plenty of academically questionable recruits the past couple of years, IMO its almost a safer bet that a questionably academic guy coming in as a junior will be better off than a freshman just due to maturity.

I'm sure a lot of it has to do with ND's admissions transfer requiements, as they are very strict in terms of taking specific courses.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't think people believe ND should goes balls to the wall taking a half dozen JUCOs a year... but the fact remains that there would be very little harm done by taking a guy here or there, and we currently handicap ourselves.

This is totally academic. In theory, yes, ND could take a gamble on 1-2 JuCos every now and then. But are those rare kids worth the recruiting resources necessary to scout, vet, and court them? Given that virtually every other program with similar academic standards to ours lacks a single JuCo on their rosters' currently, it's fair to assume otherwise. Are all of those schools, including half of the ACC, willfully refusing to avail themselves of a powerful roster management tool out of mere stubbornness?

 

[IrishLax]

And here is the thing... our very own IrishRamMan10 went to ND via transfer... it happens with the non-football student body... I don't understand the double standard... unless, I was unclear and the reg. admissions process never recognizes JC credits.

The problem is that from a JUCO, versus a 4 year university, almost none of the credits will transfer.

The obvious solution is just making an exception to allow a JUCO transfer to graduate in his 5th year of eligibility instead of forcing them to be graduated by their 4th year and enrolled in a full time graduate program.

Once again... all of this admirable academics stuff is fine and dandy if you can still fill a roster with talented guys and retain them. But if you can't, then you need to start exploring other options.

 

[ACamp1900]

The problem is that from a JUCO, versus a 4 year university, almost none of the credits will transfer.

Do you mean universally?? Because over the last year I have overseen a registration office for a local college and this is not universally the case at all... so long as the two year school is accredited...

 

[IrishLax]

This is totally academic. In theory, yes, ND could take a gamble on 1-2 JuCos every now and then. But are those rare kids worth the recruiting resources necessary to scout, vet, and court them? Given that virtually every other program with similar academic standards to ours lacks a single JuCo on their rosters' currently, it's fair to assume otherwise. Are all of those schools, including half of the ACC, willfully refusing to avail themselves of a powerful roster management tool out of mere stubbornness?

Quite possibly, yes. In the Great CB Shortage of 2012... are you telling me a JUCO in 2011 couldn't have helped immeasurably? And wouldn't have been worth exploring?

Looking at the impending Great DT Shortage of 2014... would it not be nice if we could at least consider some plug-and-play DTs?

USC routinely supplements their roster and fills holes with GREAT players from JUCO. Doesn't hurt their academic standing one bit as they've been steadily climbing up from the 30s to low 20s over the past couple years. And they certainly don't "need" it because of their location and recruiting prowess... but they still do it because it does wonders to plug holes on your roster.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

And here is the thing... our very own IrishRamMan10 went to ND via transfer... it happens with the non-football student body... I don't understand the double standard... unless, I was unclear and the reg. admissions process never recognizes JC credits.

As did RackEm. Regular transfers are very good students, though, and they typically come from respectable schools. That means virtually all of their credits transfer with them, so they can graduate on time. The vast majority of JuCos are not good students, and they're not coming from good schools, so even if they get the benefit of the doubt on individual ability, ND's refusal to grant credits for Basketweaving 101 at Chico State stops the process cold.

There's no single insuperable barrier to ND taking a JuCo transfer. But there are several barriers that are practically insuperable, and taken as a whole, it's simply not worth ND's time to invest the resources necessary to explore such options.

 

[IrishLax]

Do you mean universally?? Because over the last year I have overseen a registration office for a local college and this is not universally the case at all... so long as the two year school is accredited...

I dunno... I'm saying at ND they really frown upon credits from JUCOs/CCs and often don't accept them.

 

[ACamp1900]

Man this is a hard spot to be considering where the other 'elite' programs are on this... They won’t take JUCOs, they won’t lighten the schedule, in fact next year looks suicidal, and they won’t give a few waivers a year to the head coach… not that it's impossible but man... that's not the way to compete long term.

 

[GowerND11]

Also transfer students must meet specific requirements shown here:

Courses Required // Admissions // University of Notre Dame

 

[Booslum31]

Man this is a hard spot to be considering where the other 'elite' programs are on this... They won’t take JUCOs, they won’t lighten the schedule, in fact next year looks suicidal, and they won’t give a few waivers a year to the head coach… not that it's impossible but man... that's not the way to compete long term.

I agree ACamp. If you always do what you always did...then you always going to get what you always got. I think we need a few waivers for Kelly each year. Things aren't going to get easier going forward. Would like to see a little more of the "coaching up" that everyone was talking about when Kelly came to ND.

 

[wizards8507]

Also transfer students must meet specific requirements shown here:

Courses Required // Admissions // University of Notre Dame

If they can't meet the transfer requirements at a "lesser" University, they'd probably fail out of ND once they got here anyways. I understand the argument of letting some borderline kids in, but only if they have a legitimate shot at success in an ND classroom.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

 

[Redbar]

"And yet for all the grief Kelly and his staff catch, they once again offered a not-so-subtle reminder of why his productivity at Notre Dame is so underrated. Now 36-14 overall, Kelly raised his record to 13-1 in Notre Dame Stadium in the last 14 games and 12-2 in November.

Let's repeat that: 13-1 at home, 12-2 in November. The home mark comes after a 6-5 start in Notre Dame Stadium. The Irish are now 19-6 at home, 11-5 on the road and 6-3 at neutral sites under Kelly. Those are numbers that haven't been seen around these parts in nearly two decades.

Remember when Notre Dame couldn't win at home consistently? Remember when November was a disaster under Charlie Weis and Bob Davie? Even Lou Holtz lost five times at home in his last three seasons with the Irish.

Kelly's .720 winning percentage is a so far beyond that of his three predecessors that it's ridiculous to hear over-the-top disappointment, let alone anger toward the job he's doing, especially now that he's won at least eight games in all four of his seasons with the Irish.

That hasn't happened at Notre Dame since Lou Holtz's 64 victories from 1988-93." -excerpt from Tim Prister's The Point After.

 

[MJ12666]

"And yet for all the grief Kelly and his staff catch, they once again offered a not-so-subtle reminder of why his productivity at Notre Dame is so underrated. Now 36-14 overall, Kelly raised his record to 13-1 in Notre Dame Stadium in the last 14 games and 12-2 in November.

Let's repeat that: 13-1 at home, 12-2 in November. The home mark comes after a 6-5 start in Notre Dame Stadium. The Irish are now 19-6 at home, 11-5 on the road and 6-3 at neutral sites under Kelly. Those are numbers that haven't been seen around these parts in nearly two decades.

Remember when Notre Dame couldn't win at home consistently? Remember when November was a disaster under Charlie Weis and Bob Davie? Even Lou Holtz lost five times at home in his last three seasons with the Irish.

Kelly's .720 winning percentage is a so far beyond that of his three predecessors that it's ridiculous to hear over-the-top disappointment, let alone anger toward the job he's doing, especially now that he's won at least eight games in all four of his seasons with the Irish.

That hasn't happened at Notre Dame since Lou Holtz's 64 victories from 1988-93." -from the point after

From that point after ND administration decided that academic achievement trumped performance on the gridiron.

 

[stlnd01]

Remember when Notre Dame couldn't win at home consistently? Remember when November was a disaster under Charlie Weis and Bob Davie? Even Lou Holtz lost five times at home in his last three seasons with the Irish.

A small point. Davie was 12-7 in November. Went undefeated for the month twice and had only one real disaster ('99), when four of those losses happened. Two of the other three came in his last year, when the wheels were off regardless. Otherwise his teams finished fairly strong.
But Weis, yes. Disastrous Novembers. Kelly's been much better.

 

[BGIF]

From that point after ND administration decided that academic achievement trumped performance on the gridiron.

Not remotely true.

Have you any substance for this comment?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Not remotely true.

Have you any substance for this comment?

Not sure what he was saying. But if it was that Fr. Malloy wanted to emphasize academics, and deemphasize football and that Kevin White goaded Lou into leaving I don't know.

Are you saying it was as simple as the job the Amityville Horror did? UND football opened 0 -3 twice, the years of Davies and Weis contract extension. And he hired Geo O'Leary. Maybe it was all him.