NCAA Ruling on the ND Academic Scandal

greyhammer90

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> has simply sold its soul to try to win more football games..." - Paul Finebaum <a href="https://t.co/O0MhpwgmJt">pic.twitter.com/O0MhpwgmJt</a></p>— Outside The Lines (@OTLonESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/801499311985065985">November 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>If you guys want to understand the stupidity of ND approaching everything the way they do, just watch this little clip. It perfectly encapsulates how and why this unfolded the way it did. People have been itching for this. And they put an SEC guy in charge of the infractions.

ND thought that going backs YEARS through THOUSANDS of documents looking for any sign of cheating and then retroactively changing grades for past classes was a good idea. No one asked them to do this, nor was their any precedent for doing this. They did it because they are morons and wanted brownie points for "doing things the right way." They wanted to puff their chests out and say "see how seriously we take academic integrity! See how seriously we take violations! This is institutional control!"

For some insane reason they thought the NCAA would pat them on the back and say "job well done!" That's sheer arrogance and ignorance. Everyone with half a brain knew that if they could find anything to pin on us they would hit as hard as possible. Vacated wins was the bare minimum we were going to get once our needless internal investigation wrapped how it did and they decided to go fuck with people's past transcripts.

80% of college kids cheat. Literally every school in the country has football players that cheat on homework. Only one school is stupid enough to turn over every rock years after the fact, and then hand that information unsolicited over to the NCAA. And because they did, these haughty administrators have to live with the OPPOSITE impression of how they thought they'd be portrayed. But much like ho Kelly tries to skirt blame for anything that goes wrong, they'll also pass the buck to the "unfair NCAA" instead of looking in the mirror and saying "maybe we should've given the kid a zero on the assignment in 2014 and moved on with our lives..."

I was trying to explain this to my dad and this was the best I could come up with:

"Ok so you know when you watch Cops, and there's the driver who's obviously a normal guy and the passenger who's obviously a moron? And you know how you watch this driver willingly agree to allow his car to be searched even though you know his passenger has drugs and you know there is no reason to consent and the cop has no right to search? And you know how as soon as he consents to the search you know he's totally boned because he thinks the officer is on his side? Yeah that's Notre Dame's administration. Except they have attorneys who must be advising them on this stuff... so they're somehow stupider?"
 

NorthDakota

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I'm still chuckling.

You think it was a joke?


It wasn't a joke...

:)

He gets it.

still rather have that than tommy turnover
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">if tommy rees was on the arby's menu he'd be an apple "turnover" <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MSUND?src=hash">#MSUND</a></p>— chris orlando (@thatdudeclow) <a href="https://twitter.com/thatdudeclow/status/115158502565085184">September 17, 2011</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Lol, one of the rules in our house was that I could not use ND with Golson at QB on NCAA 14. Oddly enough I did better with Tommy than when they let me use Golson, played a more patient offense.

In our house he was called Turnover Tommy.
 

dad4aa

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> has simply sold its soul to try to win more football games..." - Paul Finebaum <a href="https://t.co/O0MhpwgmJt">pic.twitter.com/O0MhpwgmJt</a></p>— Outside The Lines (@OTLonESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/801499311985065985">November 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>If you guys want to understand the stupidity of ND approaching everything the way they do, just watch this little clip. It perfectly encapsulates how and why this unfolded the way it did. People have been itching for this. And they put an SEC guy in charge of the infractions.

ND thought that going backs YEARS through THOUSANDS of documents looking for any sign of cheating and then retroactively changing grades for past classes was a good idea. No one asked them to do this, nor was their any precedent for doing this. They did it because they are morons and wanted brownie points for "doing things the right way." They wanted to puff their chests out and say "see how seriously we take academic integrity! See how seriously we take violations! This is institutional control!"

For some insane reason they thought the NCAA would pat them on the back and say "job well done!" That's sheer arrogance and ignorance. Everyone with half a brain knew that if they could find anything to pin on us they would hit as hard as possible. Vacated wins was the bare minimum we were going to get once our needless internal investigation wrapped how it did and they decided to go fuck with people's past transcripts.

80% of college kids cheat. Literally every school in the country has football players that cheat on homework. Only one school is stupid enough to turn over every rock years after the fact, and then hand that information unsolicited over to the NCAA. And because they did, these haughty administrators have to live with the OPPOSITE impression of how they thought they'd be portrayed. But much like ho Kelly tries to skirt blame for anything that goes wrong, they'll also pass the buck to the "unfair NCAA" instead of looking in the mirror and saying "maybe we should've given the kid a zero on the assignment in 2014 and moved on with our lives..."

Great explanation Lax. Two questions for you.

1) in order to vacate wins, didn't ND have to "knowingly play ineligible players"? Unless they had a time machine, there was no way they could know" these players would have a grade changed in 2014 making them ineligible for 2012 and 2013

2) how long do you think this appeal will take?
 

IrishLax

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Great explanation Lax. Two questions for you.

1) in order to vacate wins, didn't ND have to "knowingly play ineligible players"? Unless they had a time machine, there was no way they could know" these players would have a grade changed in 2014 making them ineligible for 2012 and 2013

2) how long do you think this appeal will take?

1) Yes; however, the way NCAA gets around that is because the student's part time gig was an athletic trainer she's technically an athletics representative and "knew" the moment she was typing papers.

2) Really depends, most take a few months. ND has been trying to fast track this whole thing though, which is the opposite of what most schools do.
 

ThePiombino

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> has simply sold its soul to try to win more football games..." - Paul Finebaum <a href="https://t.co/O0MhpwgmJt">pic.twitter.com/O0MhpwgmJt</a></p>— Outside The Lines (@OTLonESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/801499311985065985">November 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>If you guys want to understand the stupidity of ND approaching everything the way they do, just watch this little clip. It perfectly encapsulates how and why this unfolded the way it did. People have been itching for this. And they put an SEC guy in charge of the infractions.

ND thought that going backs YEARS through THOUSANDS of documents looking for any sign of cheating and then retroactively changing grades for past classes was a good idea. No one asked them to do this, nor was their any precedent for doing this. They did it because they are morons and wanted brownie points for "doing things the right way." They wanted to puff their chests out and say "see how seriously we take academic integrity! See how seriously we take violations! This is institutional control!"

For some insane reason they thought the NCAA would pat them on the back and say "job well done!" That's sheer arrogance and ignorance. Everyone with half a brain knew that if they could find anything to pin on us they would hit as hard as possible. Vacated wins was the bare minimum we were going to get once our needless internal investigation wrapped how it did and they decided to go fuck with people's past transcripts.

80% of college kids cheat. Literally every school in the country has football players that cheat on homework. Only one school is stupid enough to turn over every rock years after the fact, and then hand that information unsolicited over to the NCAA. And because they did, these haughty administrators have to live with the OPPOSITE impression of how they thought they'd be portrayed. But much like ho Kelly tries to skirt blame for anything that goes wrong, they'll also pass the buck to the "unfair NCAA" instead of looking in the mirror and saying "maybe we should've given the kid a zero on the assignment in 2014 and moved on with our lives..."

This is all fine and well -- I agree with you, LAX -- but that Finebaum quote is pure absolute drivel. I mean sold its soul? STFU
 

IrishLax

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This is all fine and well -- I agree with you, LAX -- but that Finebaum quote is pure absolute drivel. I mean sold its soul? STFU

Exactly. No one in their right mind looking at the facts could possibly come to the conclusion that "Notre Dame sold its soul to win football games."

But when you have bias, like Finebaum and Sankey and the rest of their ilk, and want to see ND burn by any means possible... well, then facts don't really matter, do they?
 

ThePiombino

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Exactly. No one in their right mind looking at the facts could possibly come to the conclusion that "Notre Dame sold its soul to win football games."

But when you have bias, like Finebaum and Sankey and the rest of their ilk, and want to see ND burn by any means possible... well, then facts don't really matter, do they?

Here's what irks me - ESPN people protect ESPN people. There is ZERO modicum of integrity there anymore, even from people who are supposed to be allies of ND. I listened to Finebaum on the Mike & Mike show earlier this week and he was spewing all sorts of fallacy and Golic didn't have the balls to call him on any of it. Sickening.
 

BobbyMac

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Exactly. No one in their right mind looking at the facts could possibly come to the conclusion that "Notre Dame sold its soul to win football games."

But when you have bias, like Finebaum and Sankey and the rest of their ilk, and want to see ND burn by any means possible... well, then facts don't really matter, do they?

Any possibility this a fake news / Mark May hates ND, ESPN scripted line to generate clicks and viewers?
 

NDgradstudent

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> has simply sold its soul to try to win more football games..." - Paul Finebaum <a href="https://t.co/O0MhpwgmJt">pic.twitter.com/O0MhpwgmJt</a></p>— Outside The Lines (@OTLonESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/801499311985065985">November 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>If you guys want to understand the stupidity of ND approaching everything the way they do, just watch this little clip. It perfectly encapsulates how and why this unfolded the way it did. People have been itching for this. And they put an SEC guy in charge of the infractions.

ND thought that going backs YEARS through THOUSANDS of documents looking for any sign of cheating and then retroactively changing grades for past classes was a good idea. No one asked them to do this, nor was their any precedent for doing this. They did it because they are morons and wanted brownie points for "doing things the right way." They wanted to puff their chests out and say "see how seriously we take academic integrity! See how seriously we take violations! This is institutional control!"

For some insane reason they thought the NCAA would pat them on the back and say "job well done!" That's sheer arrogance and ignorance. Everyone with half a brain knew that if they could find anything to pin on us they would hit as hard as possible. Vacated wins was the bare minimum we were going to get once our needless internal investigation wrapped how it did and they decided to go fuck with people's past transcripts.

80% of college kids cheat. Literally every school in the country has football players that cheat on homework. Only one school is stupid enough to turn over every rock years after the fact, and then hand that information unsolicited over to the NCAA. And because they did, these haughty administrators have to live with the OPPOSITE impression of how they thought they'd be portrayed. But much like ho Kelly tries to skirt blame for anything that goes wrong, they'll also pass the buck to the "unfair NCAA" instead of looking in the mirror and saying "maybe we should've given the kid a zero on the assignment in 2014 and moved on with our lives..."

Let me argue the other position. (I honestly am not sure what to think about whether or not we have a moral obligation to vacate the wins, forgetting about the NCAA. Obviously they are hypocritical and inconsistent.) Shouldn't we want to do things the right way- not because the NCAA will then look favorably on us, but because 'we're ND'? Do we want the wins if ineligible players played?

Again, I'm not sure what to think about it myself...
 

BobbyMac

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Is Finebaum's snippet about ND using ineligible, cheating players to win or that appealing the sanction is selling their soul to get wins (back in this case)?
 

Irishize

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> has simply sold its soul to try to win more football games..." - Paul Finebaum <a href="https://t.co/O0MhpwgmJt">pic.twitter.com/O0MhpwgmJt</a></p>— Outside The Lines (@OTLonESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/801499311985065985">November 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>If you guys want to understand the stupidity of ND approaching everything the way they do, just watch this little clip. It perfectly encapsulates how and why this unfolded the way it did. People have been itching for this. And they put an SEC guy in charge of the infractions.

ND thought that going backs YEARS through THOUSANDS of documents looking for any sign of cheating and then retroactively changing grades for past classes was a good idea. No one asked them to do this, nor was their any precedent for doing this. They did it because they are morons and wanted brownie points for "doing things the right way." They wanted to puff their chests out and say "see how seriously we take academic integrity! See how seriously we take violations! This is institutional control!"

For some insane reason they thought the NCAA would pat them on the back and say "job well done!" That's sheer arrogance and ignorance. Everyone with half a brain knew that if they could find anything to pin on us they would hit as hard as possible. Vacated wins was the bare minimum we were going to get once our needless internal investigation wrapped how it did and they decided to go fuck with people's past transcripts.

80% of college kids cheat. Literally every school in the country has football players that cheat on homework. Only one school is stupid enough to turn over every rock years after the fact, and then hand that information unsolicited over to the NCAA. And because they did, these haughty administrators have to live with the OPPOSITE impression of how they thought they'd be portrayed. But much like ho Kelly tries to skirt blame for anything that goes wrong, they'll also pass the buck to the "unfair NCAA" instead of looking in the mirror and saying "maybe we should've given the kid a zero on the assignment in 2014 and moved on with our lives..."

Well stated. One tiny loophole that ND didn't consider is the volunteer, part-time trainer is enough to be considered an ND athletic dept employee. I've heard former players admit that 75% of student-athletes "cheat" at some point in their career...whether it's at Harvard or Boise St....whether it's typing a paper or taking a test.

I know the Crossroads project is set to open next season & its apropos as ND is at a crossroads. They need to seriously decide what they want to be. They can adapt to changing landscape like Duke basketball (accepting one & dones; players majoring in Sociology to lighten load) or join the Ivy League.

Subway Alum (like most of us I presume) want ND to get the best (& brightest if convenient) players that may not necessarily have been accepted to ND w/o their football prowess. Problem is, the kids still have to complete their work and with their insane schedule, there's going to be more incidents like this. I can see where the students at ND could become resentful of the student-athletes getting an easier path but that's life.

As I understand, Stanford is tougher to gain admission than ND, however; their curriculum are not as tough to stay eligible once they're in. I could be wrong but it makes sense as you never hear of Stanford players being academically ineligible or suspended due to academic misdeeds.
 

ulukinatme

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Finebaum can eat a bag of dicks. We went above and beyond to get on top of this when we found out about it. I seriously hope this gets overturned, because if it doesn't I've lost all faith in the NCAA...well...that kind of went out the door after they failed to drop the hammer on Ped State, Miami, and NC.
 

ThePiombino

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Finebaum can eat a bag of dicks. We went above and beyond to get on top of this when we found out about it. I seriously hope this gets overturned, because if it doesn't I've lost all faith in the NCAA...well...that kind of went out the door after they failed to drop the hammer on Ped State, Miami, and NC.

It won't get overturned for all the reasons LAX mentioned. Not to mention they're appealing to the very people that just swung the hammer.
 

phork

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Yup, no way that gets overturned.

It will get over turned. They accomplished their mission by dragging ND further into the mud pit so the stains of that will be felt for years, however.
 

Sherm Sticky

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"<a href="https://twitter.com/NotreDame">@NotreDame</a> has simply sold its soul to try to win more football games..." - Paul Finebaum <a href="https://t.co/O0MhpwgmJt">pic.twitter.com/O0MhpwgmJt</a></p>— Outside The Lines (@OTLonESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/OTLonESPN/status/801499311985065985">November 23, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>If you guys want to understand the stupidity of ND approaching everything the way they do, just watch this little clip. It perfectly encapsulates how and why this unfolded the way it did. People have been itching for this. And they put an SEC guy in charge of the infractions.

ND thought that going backs YEARS through THOUSANDS of documents looking for any sign of cheating and then retroactively changing grades for past classes was a good idea. No one asked them to do this, nor was their any precedent for doing this. They did it because they are morons and wanted brownie points for "doing things the right way." They wanted to puff their chests out and say "see how seriously we take academic integrity! See how seriously we take violations! This is institutional control!"

For some insane reason they thought the NCAA would pat them on the back and say "job well done!" That's sheer arrogance and ignorance. Everyone with half a brain knew that if they could find anything to pin on us they would hit as hard as possible. Vacated wins was the bare minimum we were going to get once our needless internal investigation wrapped how it did and they decided to go fuck with people's past transcripts.

80% of college kids cheat. Literally every school in the country has football players that cheat on homework. Only one school is stupid enough to turn over every rock years after the fact, and then hand that information unsolicited over to the NCAA. And because they did, these haughty administrators have to live with the OPPOSITE impression of how they thought they'd be portrayed. But much like ho Kelly tries to skirt blame for anything that goes wrong, they'll also pass the buck to the "unfair NCAA" instead of looking in the mirror and saying "maybe we should've given the kid a zero on the assignment in 2014 and moved on with our lives..."



Very well written!

Let me ask you something:

How can such a highly rated academic school be run by morons with no sense of reality?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

military_irish

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Very well written!

Let me ask you something:

How can such a highly rated academic school be run by morons with no sense of reality?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think they have a sense of moral reality but lack in the category of athletic morality. Meaning altheletes should have a different college experience than the normal college kid. Is it right? Hell no! But if you want to be athletically competent rules must be broken and you must be able to bring the all mighty dollar to the NCAA. Otherwise you must be punished, hence the reason ND was punished for blocking their police records.
 

Crazy Balki

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It will get overturned. The NCAA is caught in a logical dead-end as already described by Fr Jenkins. The culprits are all students and the matter was dealt with immediately once discovered. The situation, as concluded BY the NCAA, showed no evidence of lack of institutional control or intent/knowledge from a ND employee/staff member, all elements required to prove ND is accountable for the misdeeds and worthy of vacation of wins. Basically, the NCAA doesn't have a leg to stand on here. And even though this has muddied ND's reputation, from what I've read, the NCAA is catching the majority of the hit from the media and general masses. Many are wondering whether ND was seriously culpable or wondering why UNC/Miami/Baylor have yet to get hit, but ND is getting hit for significantly minor and uncontrollable issues.
 
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Crazy Balki

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I think they have a sense of moral reality but lack in the category of athletic morality. Meaning altheletes should have a different college experience than the normal college kid. Is it right? Hell no! But if you want to be athletically competent rules must be broken and you must be able to bring the all mighty dollar to the NCAA. Otherwise you must be punished, hence the reason ND was punished for blocking their police records.

They were? Didn't ND win the case to keep their records private?

All this ruling really does is, if ND is smart, prevent them from ever cooperating with the NCAA again. This may be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

You are right, ND may very well be close to make that decision at their proverbial fork in the road.
 

Blazers46

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I ignored the Cubs for several years knowing they were rebuilding, how long should I ignore ND football?
 

Crazy Balki

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I ignored the Cubs for several years knowing they were rebuilding, how long should I ignore ND football?

Depends. Afraid it might not just be a matter of waiting for an Epstein-Madden match made in heaven scenario for ND.

The Cubs had the resources to be a competitive franchise and found the guys to get them over the hump.

ND doesn't have that. They're facing a landscape where everything works against them. ND is one of very few schools in major college football (if not the only) that holds their players truly accountable from an academic standpoint.
 

phgreek

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The NCAA enforcement folks continue to make me laugh my ass off. Not gonna hold up...when you look at this case in all the contexts required...only a complete idiot could say this makes any sense. It serves as a deliberate and obvious attempt to give awful people like Finebaum fodder.

The SEC and Finebaum can count on MANY a project Veritas type expose' for no other reason than to rub the NCAA'S nose in shit....

Time for the good guys to throw some punches and administer a couple public curb stompings of an overly subjective, if not bias and corrupt system.
 

yankeehater

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OK. So how many people (ND Haters!) brought this up at your Thanksgiving Dinner? OMG....even my cousin's (he played at a Pac 12 school) wife who never talks sports brought the sh!t up to rub it in!!!!!
 

yankeehater

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This will not get overturned. The NCAA is just like the NFL and Goodell. If they overturn it, they are admitting their original decision was wrong.
 

Blazers46

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Can ND go all Tom Brady on the NCAA and go over the NCAAs heads?
 

Legacy

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NCAA punishment is anyone's guess

(CNN)When football season begins, the University of North Carolina Tar Heels will have more than just 12 games to worry about. They're also facing the looming judgment of the NCAA infractions board for the worst academic fraud case in the history of college sports.

The NCAA found evidence of academic fraud -- five Level 1 violations -- and is pursuing sanctions against the university. The fraud went on for 18 years and involved members of the athletic department pushing athletes into sham "paper" classes where plagiarism was rampant, the university's own investigation found. It was institutional cheating used to keep players' grades up.

But if you want to take a guess at how severe the NCAA's sanctions will be, good luck.

A study of dozens of recent cases of academic fraud across the country found that when it comes to investigating and punishing universities for wrongdoing, the NCAA is all over the map.

Three respected university researchers analyzed 39 allegations of academic fraud since 1990, including UNC, and found a "lack of consistency" in how the allegations were handled. They also found that the NCAA is more inclined to "provide sanctions that keep in mind the impact on the larger association than practicing equitable decision-making."

"We found there were great inconsistencies," said Gerald Gurney, a former athletics-academic director at the University of Oklahoma who is now also the president of the Drake Group for academic integrity in collegiate sport. "There have been cases of obvious academic fraud ... and the NCAA has not been investigating those cases. And we are scratching our heads wondering why."
 
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