[NBA] vBook: Cavaliers vs Celtics

[IrishSteelhead]

[NBA] vBook: Cavaliers vs Celtics

Exhibit Z-278 why I hate ESPN:

Beating a team that didnt have a single all-star in 7 games is validation in ESPNs eyes apparently.



*forgot Horford made the ASG. I retract my statement. ESPN is right. This might be the most legacy defining series win any player has ever had.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Exhibit Z-278 why I hate ESPN:

Beating a team that didnt have a single all-star in 7 games is validation in ESPNs eyes apparently.



*forgot Horford made the ASG. I retract my statement. ESPN is right. This might be the most legacy defining series win any player has ever had.

What he has done this entire playoffs is Herculean and he has delivered in every way imaginable. That wasn't the case 5 years ago. Remember when there were nights he would disappear? Not anymore.

Love or hate him, this has probably been his best playoff run in his career.

 

[stlnd01]

Will be very interesting to see the Celtics lockerroom after this year. By all accounts Kyrie left the Cavs because he wanted to be "the man". I'm not so sure he's going to get that in Boston either after this playoffs.

Btw where the hell was he? That's weird as hell to not be on the bench at least in a game 7 to go to the Finals.

I think there's a big difference between being one of three or four generally equal stars on a really good team, and playing permanent second fiddle to LeBron James in Cleveland where the guy basically runs the franchise. But, yeah, it was weird Kyrie wasn't there last night. Maybe off exploring the ends of the earth?

Anyway, LeBron is ridiculous. But the Celtics would have won if they'd just made their shots in the fourth quarter. The moment felt a little big for them in the end. They'll be back.

 

[BobbyMac]

LeBron better get to Philly... or Boston.

Celts have All Stars returning and 3 additional high first round draft picks to add to their own over the next 1-3 years depending on how the Kings, Clippers and Grizzlies records turnout.

With Hayward and Stevens in Boston, I just might have to dust off my Bird hoodie and party like it's 1986.

 

[Blazers46]

What he has done this entire playoffs is Herculean and he has delivered in every way imaginable. That wasn't the case 5 years ago. Remember when there were nights he would disappear? Not anymore.

Love or hate him, this has probably been his best playoff run in his career.

Who have they beat? Olidipo lead Pacers? Lowry and Defrozen lead Raptors? Jason Tatum lead Celtics? The East is pure garbage.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Lebron had a good game but it certainly was not an incredible force of will.

Rozier, Morris and Smart combined for 8-38 shooting. The Celts shot 17.9% from 3 and 34% overall and it wasn't because of heroic Cavs defense. There were way too many open looks in the 2nd half, Boston was just off.

Tatum and Horford showed up. Maybe the moment was too big for the others?

All game, Rozier took some very questionable shots. I'd probably look to move him in the next couple seasons.

Lebron and the Cavs did enough, barely. The Cavs are going to get dominated by the Warriors.

 

[johnnycando]

I really dislike Lebron and his dominance.

He is a dominant and amazing athlete. One of the best ever.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Who have they beat? Olidipo lead Pacers? Lowry and Defrozen lead Raptors? Jason Tatum lead Celtics? The East is pure garbage.

It isn't about who, it's about how. There is no other NBA player you could swap with LeBron and get the same result out of the Cavs.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

All game, Rozier took some very questionable shots. I'd probably look to move him in the next couple seasons.

Yeah, but Id definitely keep him until his price outweighs his production. Hes a GREAT second unit guy on a good team, or a starter on an average one.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Yeah, but Id definitely keep him until his price outweighs his production. Hes a GREAT second unit guy on a good team, or a starter on an average one.

Agreed but they can't run his contract to the end and get nothing in return. He's valuable enough to warrant some interest. I'm not suggesting they must move him immediately but they need to be listening to other teams and see what they can get in return.

Of course, if Kyrie can stay healthy then Rozier is a great compliment piece. I just don't think he can carry the team.

 

[stlnd01]

All game, Rozier took some very questionable shots. I'd probably look to move him in the next couple seasons.

Rozier had some pretty tremendous games in the postseason. They wouldn't have gotten as far as they did without him. But he's not a starter if Irving is healthy, and he's a restricted free agent after next season. If they're confident in Irving's knee, Rozier probably does get traded at some point, but it won't be because he rushed some shots last night.

 

[Blazers46]

It isn't about who, it's about how. There is no other NBA player you could swap with LeBron and get the same result out of the Cavs.

I’m not arguing he isn’t the best player currently. But when it comes to comparing him with all time greats, in the end, this team and this guy just beat absolutely nobody. For a great player whom is compared and called the GOAT by many and they are using this run as an example to compare him to NBA greats (not current players), this is LBJ beating nobody.

 

[greyhammer90]

I agree that I think the impressiveness of this particular Finals run is overstated. His team is garbage but the East is too for the most part. But the impressiveness of going to 8 straight Finals is being understated IMO. He's already proven that he's one of the greatest to ever lace it up. Where he falls in people's personal rankings is going to be personal opinion/bias.

 

[NorthDakota]

I’m not arguing he isn’t the best player currently. But when it comes to comparing him with all time greats, in the end, this team and this guy just beat absolutely nobody. For a great player whom is compared and called the GOAT by many and they are using this run as an example to compare him to NBA greats (not current players), this is LBJ beating nobody.

Take a peak at his team.

King James is the greatest all around player of all time.

 

[NDRock]

Take a peak at his team.

King James is the greatest all around player of all time.

I think there is a strong case to be made for that statement. Having watched Jordan and Lebron in their primes, I would take Jordan over Lebron in a must win game. Doesn't take away from Lebron's brilliance or the fact that he's the best player of his generation.

 

[Rocket89]

I’m not arguing he isn’t the best player currently. But when it comes to comparing him with all time greats, in the end, this team and this guy just beat absolutely nobody. For a great player whom is compared and called the GOAT by many and they are using this run as an example to compare him to NBA greats (not current players), this is LBJ beating nobody.

A few things...

*The Raptors and Celts combined for 114 wins during the regular season. While true neither club is operating at an all-time high you could re-write a lot of NBA history by dismissing teams who won that many games.

*The Cavs are a really poor team in the big picture of NBA history. They weren't favored in plenty of games in these playoffs and tons of people didn't think they'd get back to the Finals. Eight straight Finals, 6 straight game 7 wins, Love missing most of the last 2 games against the Celts, first team to beat the Celts after trailing 2-0, the amount of minutes and effort, plus the sheer quantity of highlight plays--it's been an absurd playoffs for LeBron.

*What LeBron is doing at his age during these playoffs is shocking. At this age MJ was haggard and scored 45 points on 35 shots with 1 assist and 1 rebound in a signature game 6 clincher against the Jazz. That's an iconic moment for MJ and he hung it up. LeBron finishes game 7 with Jeff Green as his best contributor while throwing up 35-15-9 and people are like, "Yeah not really a great game from LeBron." He's been so good that too many are getting numb to sensational games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=D3VfC

He's averaging 34.0 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 8.8 assists. Unless he takes a big step back in the Finals this will be another all-time playoff run. Even if they lose, his 2015, 2017, and 2018 runs are all-time Top 5 playoff efforts without a championship. Some only want to talk rings, and that's fine, but LeBron is still adding to a considerable legacy at this age and it's amazing.

 

[Blazers46]

A few things...

*The Raptors and Celts combined for 114 wins during the regular season. While true neither club is operating at an all-time high you could re-write a lot of NBA history by dismissing teams who won that many games.

*The Cavs are a really poor team in the big picture of NBA history. They weren't favored in plenty of games in these playoffs and tons of people didn't think they'd get back to the Finals. Eight straight Finals, 6 straight game 7 wins, Love missing most of the last 2 games against the Celts, first team to beat the Celts after trailing 2-0, the amount of minutes and effort, plus the sheer quantity of highlight plays--it's been an absurd playoffs for LeBron.

*What LeBron is doing at his age during these playoffs is shocking. At this age MJ was haggard and scored 45 points on 35 shots with 1 assist and 1 rebound in a signature game 6 clincher against the Jazz. That's an iconic moment for MJ and he hung it up. LeBron finishes game 7 with Jeff Green as his best contributor while throwing up 35-15-9 and people are like, "Yeah not really a great game from LeBron." He's been so good that too many are getting numb to sensational games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=D3VfC

He's averaging 34.0 points, 9.2 rebounds, and 8.8 assists. Unless he takes a big step back in the Finals this will be another all-time playoff run. Even if they lose, his 2015, 2017, and 2018 runs are all-time Top 5 playoff efforts without a championship. Some only want to talk rings, and that's fine, but LeBron is still adding to a considerable legacy at this age and it's amazing.

To your first point.... both teams played the majority of their games in the East, which is garbage. Put each of those East teams in the West and the majority of them don’t make the playoffs. Cavs would have a hard time making the playoffs in the West.

A run down MJ, that’s because he was getting body slammed all through the 80s and early 90s. It’s hard to compare eras because you can’t touch anyone anymore and everyone runs their mouth and postures like they they are in grade school.

And this might not be knock on LBJ the player but LBJ is responsible for this team. He picks the coach and I am sure he signs off on every deal. Me Kardashian and RJ Brick are on this team because LBJ wants them on this team. If his supporting cast sucks that’s his fault. If and when LBJ leaves it’s a lock he won’t go to the West. He’s better to stay with the Cavs so his next title run is set in stone.

 

[Sureal]

To your first point.... both teams played the majority of their games in the East, which is garbage. Put each of those East teams in the West and the majority of them don’t make the playoffs. Cavs would have a hard time making the playoffs in the West.

A run down MJ, that’s because he was getting body slammed all through the 80s and early 90s. It’s hard to compare eras because you can’t touch anyone anymore and everyone runs their mouth and postures like they they are in grade school.

And this might not be knock on LBJ the player but LBJ is responsible for this team. He picks the coach and I am sure he signs off on every deal. Me Kardashian and RJ Brick are on this team because LBJ wants them on this team. If his supporting cast sucks that’s his fault. If and when LBJ leaves it’s a lock he won’t go to the West. He’s better to stay with the Cavs so his next title run is set in stone.

I'm thinking he goes to the Rockets after the Cavs get ran off the face of the earth by the Western Conference All Stars

 

[Sureal]

I agree that I think the impressiveness of this particular Finals run is overstated. His team is garbage but the East is too for the most part. But the impressiveness of going to 8 straight Finals is being understated IMO. He's already proven that he's one of the greatest to ever lace it up. Where he falls in people's personal rankings is going to be personal opinion/bias.

And what people value more. I value mental toughness and "killer instinct" a lot being I grew up in the era where the NBA looked like the WWF or E or whatever it is now. There were real villains back then so I think that plays into Jordan's lore more than Lebron's. What is odd to me is how nobody mentions Kareem in these arguments...

 

[koonja]

If Lebron goes to the Rockets it'll be an absolute joke. They're as good as the Warriors now, maybe even better if CP3 is able to play last 2 games and they don't go historically cold in the 2nd half yesterday.

That Rockets team is solid, from start to finish, even though their 3 stars really get all of the credit. When Trevor Ariza and Capella don't even get mentioned, your roster is loaded.

 

[Sureal]

If Lebron goes to the Rockets it'll be an absolute joke. They're as good as the Warriors now, maybe even better if CP3 is able to play last 2 games and they don't go historically cold in the 2nd half yesterday.

That Rockets team is solid, from start to finish, even though their 3 stars really get all of the credit. When Trevor Ariza and Capella don't even get mentioned, your roster is loaded.

There is precedence of him doing this. I wouldn't be surprised at all. CP3 and James are good friends as well so that plays a part in it.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

If Lebron goes to the Rockets it'll be an absolute joke. They're as good as the Warriors now, maybe even better if CP3 is able to play last 2 games and they don't go historically cold in the 2nd half yesterday.

That Rockets team is solid, from start to finish, even though their 3 stars really get all of the credit. When Trevor Ariza and Capella don't even get mentioned, your roster is loaded.

KD joined a team with 73 regular seasons wins. Lol.

 

[koonja]

KD joined a team with 73 regular seasons wins. Lol.

Yeah, and that was a joke too. Just like it was when Lebron joined Wade and Bosh who were both in their prime.

It sucks that that's what everyone wants to do now.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The cap dynamics of this is a complicating factor for Houston. LeBron has, and reportedly will continue, to refuse anything less than max contract. Paul has a Bird hold and there is no clear path for Houston to keep his current hold, have James on a max deal and retain Gordon and Capela. Most likely, Gordon is gone if James comes. But even then, the rest of the roster would have to be absolute garbage to make the cap work. They could go sign and trade route, but that requires the Cavs to get something in return. What the Cavs would value in midst of a gigantic rebuild is unknown.

I think the most likely landing spot is LA, assuming they can get PG13 to join James.

I don't like Philly, mainly because of Simmons. He is way too similar to James and I don't think he could be as productive being off the ball. There is no way Philly would part with him and they would probably get rid of Redick for cap reasons. Would there be enough 3pt shooting to take advantage of Simmons and James creation? I have my doubts.

I also doubt Cleveland, as the cap and tax bills are so massive. Gilbert will spend, but there has to be a limit right?

 

[greyhammer90]

If Lebron goes to the Rockets it'll be an absolute joke. They're as good as the Warriors now, maybe even better if CP3 is able to play last 2 games and they don't go historically cold in the 2nd half yesterday.

That Rockets team is solid, from start to finish, even though their 3 stars really get all of the credit. When Trevor Ariza and Capella don't even get mentioned, your roster is loaded.

Literally two days ago you were saying that the Cavs roster was as good if not better than the Rockets, and were implying that Lebron just wasn't the right kind of player to get the most out of them. Now Lebron joining the Rockets would be a joke because they are so loaded.

 

[stlnd01]

If LeBron’s reason for moving is to win a title in the next 2-3 years it would seem like his best bet is Houston or Philly. Or stay in Cleveland and add another star somehow.

 

[koonja]

Literally two days ago you were saying that the Cavs roster was as good if not better than the Rockets, and were implying that Lebron just wasn't the right kind of player to get the most out of them. Now Lebron joining the Rockets would be a joke because they are so loaded.

That's so different than the point you're referring to, because you're not only removing Lebron from one team, you're adding him to the other. Not sure how you're trying to merge that into this.

If you take Lebron and Love off of the Cavs, and CP3 and Harden off of the Rockets, you're left with Eric Gordon and a bunch of role players. Jeff Green, George Hill, Kyle Korver, and Tristan Thompson vs. Eric Gordon, Clint Capella, and Trevor Ariza is not lopsided. That was my point.

Not only taking Lebron off of the Cavs (while keeping CP3 and Harden on Rockets), but then adding Lebron to the Rockets is a wildly different hypothetical.

 

[Ndaccountant]

This is a bad follow up to my previous post, because you're not only removing Lebron from one team, you're adding him to the other. None of which had anything to do with the point I made the other day that you're trying to merge into this.

If you take Lebron and Love off of the Cavs, and CP3 and Harden off of the Rockets, you're left with Eric Gordon and a bunch of role players. Jeff Green, George Hill, Kyle Korver, and Tristan Thompson vs. Eric Gordon, Clint Capella, and Trevor Ariza is not lopsided. That was my point.

"Yeah but take Lebron off of the Cavs and add him to the Rockets" is such a wildly different hypothetical, I'm surprised you're trying to tie them together.

Value over replacement player (which is neutralized to take into considerations who you are playing with and against):


Korver - 0.9
JR Smith - 0.2
Hill - 0.2
Green - 0.1
TT - (0.1)
Total - 1.3

Value to wins converter: =2.7*1.3 = 3.5 wins over average replacement player

Capela - 2.6
Ariza - 2.0
Tucker - 1.2
Anderson - 1.0
Gordon - 0.5
Total - 7.3

Value to wins converter: =2.7*7.3 = 19.7 wins over average replacement player

I know, stats lie, yada yada yada.

 

[greyhammer90]

This is a bad follow up to my previous post, because you're not only removing Lebron from one team, you're adding him to the other. None of which had anything to do with the point I made the other day that you're trying to merge into this.

If you take Lebron and Love off of the Cavs, and CP3 and Harden off of the Rockets, you're left with Eric Gordon and a bunch of role players. Jeff Green, George Hill, Kyle Korver, and Tristan Thompson vs. Eric Gordon, Clint Capella, and Trevor Ariza is not lopsided. That was my point.

"Yeah but take Lebron off of the Cavs and add him to the Rockets" is such a wildly different hypothetical, I'm surprised you're trying to tie them together.

You're mistakenly placing the emphasis of my response on this hypothetical that was thrown out there:

If Lebron goes to the Rockets it'll be an absolute joke. They're as good as the Warriors now, maybe even better if CP3 is able to play last 2 games and they don't go historically cold in the 2nd half yesterday.

I was just repeating the hypo to paraphrase you accurately. The emphasis (and point of contention) was meant to be placed on this statement:

That Rockets team is solid, from start to finish, even though their 3 stars really get all of the credit. When Trevor Ariza and Capella don't even get mentioned, your roster is loaded.

In your opinion is the Cavs roster loaded?

 

[koonja]

You're mistakenly placing the emphasis of my response on this hypothetical that was thrown out there:



I was just repeating the hypo to paraphrase you accurately. The emphasis (and point of contention) was meant to be placed on this statement:



In your opinion is the Cavs roster loaded?

No, but they're far from bad. If you take out 2 star players (one being the greatest in the world) are are left with:

George Hill, who's capable of averaging 17 PPG (he did last year).
Larry Nance Jr, who's an 8 PPG, 7 boards, and a lot of contested shots.
Tristan Thompson who's in his prime and gets a double double anytime you start him.
Kyle Korver, who's a top 10 3pt shooter of all time
Jeff Green who's capable of getting 20 on a given night.
And Jordan Clarkson who averaged just under 15 PPG last year.

You have one hell of a roster, no matter how many excuses the media makes up about how "bad their roster is".