Making a Murderer (Spoilers)

Rocket89

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1. I read your comments and I haven't read the transcripts or watched the show as previously stated. I said I would reserve making my final thought until after I watched the show. Not sure what your point is.

2. You found the show on ID biased and I didn't, so that makes the show inaccurate or wrong?

3. You're simply dismissive of anything that doesn't fit your thoughts or opinions. The above is a good example.

I'll let you have the final thought.

1. My point was that you were all adamant about 'bias' without watching MaM or reading much else on the topic. It's like talking about ND recruiting when all you've done is read an article by Mike Farrell. Your frame of reference is small and skewed.

2. You're obsessed with bias. Taking them side by side MaM is enormously more informative, thought provoking, and digs deeper than the Investigation Discovery show. It's 9 times longer for goodness sake! The ID show was a quick and sloppy money grab to try and cash in on the Avery story aftermath in the media. And it shows. I don't really care about bias, I just think the ID show was poorly done.

3. Wrong. What I am is dismissive of is someone who's going off about bias with little frame of reference. Kind of funny--seems like you're the bias one who wants to dismiss the MaM documentary without even watching it.
 

Emcee77

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I'm not really troubled that you're troubled, mate. You can scream that the doc was 'clearly' biased but your opinion really isn't all that popular among people who have dug really deep into the case. In fact, I've found a lot of important stuff outside of MaM, and some of it is very pro-defense.

What additional sources have you looked at?

Many additional sources, especially that "Rebutting a Murderer" website that I mentioned earlier in the thread. It is as biased as the documentary, but having both perspectives is helpful.

You can't be serious though, about the bias. I want to believe you are a serious person so I have to believe that you recognize that the documentary is biased because it gives disproportionate attention to evidence that is helpful to Avery, at the expense of evidence that is harmful to him, and shows that evidence in the light more favorable to him. How much of the trial footage they show, for example, is defense lawyers asking questions, as opposed to prosecution lawyers? I'd be curious to know for sure, but it seemed to me that the defense lawyers were getting way more trial air time. (I'm not talking about the out-of-court interviews; I understand the prosecution likely declined to talk.) I linked the below article earlier in the thread, and I think it is accurate:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ng-to-serial-made-us-doubt-making-a-murderer/

Again, none of that means that the documentary isn't intelligent and useful; it just means it isn't the only source to consider. That's what I meant to say in my prior post. I think you interpreted that post as accusing you of not looking at any other sources, which was not my intention; you have clearly demonstrated that you have dug deeply into this matter.

The bolded is spot on. It is patently obvious that evidence was planted against him because there is no other plausible explanation.

No finger prints... but a bunch of his blood? So he was wearing gloves... but then bled through the gloves? Or he successfully wiped down 100% of his finger prints and other DNA from inside the vehicle's interior... but then forgot to get his blood spots?

Like you don't even have to get past the car to understand that the narrative makes zero fucking sense as the prosecution is presenting the "evidence."

Yeah, the facts don't add up, and the conclusion that there was not just unconscionable sloppiness but blatant misconduct is virtually inescapable, I agree.

Like I think you said earlier in the thread, I am still agnostic as to whether Avery did it, though. I just can't tell, from the evidence I've seen.

Many of the cases of police misconduct I've seen in my legal career occur in cases in which the defendant is clearly guilty based on evidence that is untainted by the misconduct. That's not necessarily the case here; I'm just saying that I have seen too much misconduct in cases in which the defendant is guilty to infer from the misconduct that Avery is innocent, if that makes sense. A lot of people I talk to seem to think it's either/or: there was either misconduct, or he is guilty. But both can be true.
 
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IrishLax

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Yeah, the facts don't add up, and the conclusion that there was not just unconscionable sloppiness but blatant misconduct is virtually inescapable, I agree.

But like I think you said earlier in the thread, I am still agnostic as to whether Avery did it. I just can't tell, from the evidence I've seen.

Many of the cases of police misconduct I've seen in my legal career occur in cases in which the defendant is clearly guilty based on evidence that is untainted by the misconduct. That's not necessarily the case here; I'm just saying that I have seen too much misconduct in cases in which the defendant is guilty to infer from the misconduct that Avery is innocent, if you see what I mean. A lot of people I talk to seem to think it's either/or: there was either misconduct, or he is guilty. But both can be true.

Totally agree. I honestly don't know... from considering all the facts I'm aware of... whether or not he did it. He could have done it. Some might even argue that it's probable that he did it relative to other alternative theories

It's just a shame to me that he didn't get a fair trial, and that Dassey got railroaded the way he did.
 

Rocket89

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Many additional sources, especially that "Rebutting a Murderer" website that I mentioned earlier in the thread. It is as biased as the documentary, but having both perspectives is helpful.

You can't be serious though, about the bias.

Oh, MaM has bias. Everything, to a certain degree has bias. They were very clearly trying to lead you to the conclusion that Avery might be innocent and was framed. My point on the bias would be twofold:

1. Was the bias SO BAD that it painted a very incorrect picture of the case and trial?

This is what's important to me. Everyone keeps screaming about the bias and what was left out. But does what was left out really change the overall picture? For example, that WaPo link which then links to a Milwuakee article on the "14 Pieces of Troubling Evidence Left Out or Glossed Over" is instructive. Her first piece? "Leg irons" and handcuffs were found in Avery's residence. Here are those "leg irons" from the trial:

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Little toy handcuffs that don't even properly lock. Some of this stuff is so cringe worthy to read, and it keeps getting repeated as if it should de-legitimize the MaM documentary. So, folks hear "they left out the discovery of leg irons" but when you actually see what they found you just roll your eyes. It's really, really, really hard to think he tied her up at all and then for them to sell that those were the evidence--without a spec of DNA evidence of course--is so funny it's sad.

Holy crap, this was left out of the MaM documentary--it actually strengthens Avery's defense!

Her 5th item left out was that Avery had porn. I mean, come on!

2. Did anyone watch the documentary and come away thinking, "Hmm, well this seemed bias to me I sure would have liked to hear more what Ken Kratz, Len Kachinksy, and Lieutenant Lenk have to say to balance out the bias."

Maybe Avery did it. Maybe he's a lot worse of a person than is portrayed in MaM. There's certainly a lot more people from the defense side who get to speak on the matter. But there's no narration and MaM is full of a ton of interviews, trial testimony, press conferences, and other evidence that isn't altered. It's a pretty raw bones show as far as documentaries go. Yeah, you could quibble about how they present all that evidence.

But did we really need to hear more from Ken Kratz in the documentary? He declined to be a part of it and has been scrambling in the media ever since it was streamed. His protestations have been so lame and sad. Now, if the head prosecutor, who I would claim is a terrible human being, really doesn't have any bullets to fire in the media right now just how biased do we think the MaM doc really was? Don't people think that if the doc really left a bunch of important stuff out that Kratz would be the first person to let it be known? Instead, all he could do was raise a whimper about "leg irons" and such.

So yeah, there's bias in the MaM series but does it ever get so bad that it provides us an unethical or incorrect painting of the events? I'd argue it doesn't even come close to being that biased.
 
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Rocket89

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BTW, if Avery did it I don't think a gun or knife was involved. Just way too messy.

I think I've mentioned this before here but I don't think much of the prosecutions tale of events took place strictly in terms of her murder.

Something like hitting her quickly with a hammer, maybe knocked her out or maybe killed her, then tossing her into her trunk without a ton of blood left behind. There was a hammer in one of the burn barrels--I don't know if the fire would have gotten rid of all the evidence but I would have thought investigators would test the crap out if it regardless.

But I can't really square away if he hit her with a hammer then threw her in the back of her car with finding her bones in his burn pit. That would entail so much movement, and presumably a trail of evidence, plus trying to figure out why he drove her away somewhere only to bring her back to the burn pit right next to her house.
 

Whiskeyjack

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Xtlu123dg0I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

PANDFAN

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either way....he burned a cat...what kind of human does this? working in the field i do, this is generally strong indications of future "issues"...guy is a scum and have no problem w/him being locked up...society is better off that way
 

NDRock

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either way....he burned a cat...what kind of human does this? working in the field i do, this is generally strong indications of future "issues"...guy is a scum and have no problem w/him being locked up...society is better off that way

So even if he never actually committed the murder he should be in prison because of the cat incident that happened 30 years ago? Sounds reasonable.
 

NorthDakota

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either way....he burned a cat...what kind of human does this? working in the field i do, this is generally strong indications of future "issues"...guy is a scum and have no problem w/him being locked up...society is better off that way

I'm not endorsing animal cruelty, but are you serious?
 

Rocket89

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I'd presume she's setting out to prove that Halbach's phone was pinging towers far away from Avery's while he was on his landline home phone. Not 100% airtight alibi but it's a good start. I thought Zellner would be primarily focused on the corruption and planting of evidence, which she still may be, but this is a step in the right direction.
 

PANDFAN

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I'm not endorsing animal cruelty, but are you serious?

its outlandish and i don't feel that this should be the norm for having someone locked up "if" he didnt do it...but what i am saying is there is so much he did or didn't that since it is a coin flip....keep him locked up....its not like this guy has been a law abiding citizen...he has told people he had wanted to kidnap, rape and torture them as a sex slave to him, has had numerous other run in w/ law and f'ing threw a cat in a fire....yeah i guess im kind of serious
 

tussin

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its outlandish and i don't feel that this should be the norm for having someone locked up "if" he didnt do it...but what i am saying is there is so much he did or didn't that since it is a coin flip....keep him locked up....its not like this guy has been a law abiding citizen...he has told people he had wanted to kidnap, rape and torture them as a sex slave to him, has had numerous other run in w/ law and f'ing threw a cat in a fire....yeah i guess im kind of serious

That's not how the criminal justice system in America is supposed to work.
 

ND NYC

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I'd vote guilty and sleep very well knowing I got it right. I'd still wonder how it actually all went down. I can only hope Stephen eventually realizes he's never getting out and he comes clean.

I don't have to know exactly how he did it if all the evidence points that he did it. And to be clear, I didn't make up my mind until the final episode played. I was still going back and forth but when it ended, I was fairly certain he did it. Then I read the rest of the evidence not presented in the show and it made the final decision much easier.

too damn ironic that your screename translated from Latin is: "To Advance with Truth as our Leader"

you should change it to "Preconcieved Notion Duce Progredi"
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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too damn ironic that your screename translated from Latin is: "To Advance with Truth as our Leader"

you should change it to "Preconcieved Notion Duce Progredi"

I'd say your loudmouth fits perfectly with your name.

Please use words with five letters or less, I have a difficult time understanding your very open minded point.
 

Rocket89

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Exoneration lawyer Kathleen Zellner's brief for Steven Avery is due on May 31st with the Wisconsin Supreme Court of Appeals.

Roughly a month ago the 1,000+ page Calumet County investigative report was made public online.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf

The law enforcement in this case keeps looking worse and worse as more information comes out. It'll be interesting to see Zellner's brief. I can imagine she's feeling pretty damn good.
 

ND NYC

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are the shows producers going to be working with/filming the wrath of this Zellner?
Would love to see her in action and behind the scenes, she seems like a legal badass, "Brienne of Sheboygan"!
 

Rocket89

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are the shows producers going to be working with/filming the wrath of this Zellner?
Would love to see her in action and behind the scenes, she seems like a legal badass, "Brienne of Sheboygan"!

Yes, as of now the directors of MaM are planning on filming a second documentary that follows Zellner's work on the case although I don't believe they have begun any filming yet.
 

Rocket89

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Wonder, is his trial also being looked at again? I'm not sure if Steven did it...but I'm positive Brendan was not a part of it.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I believe Zellner is out to exonerate Avery and have his sentence overturned. Once that happens, I believe Brendan will be (would have to be?) released as well.
 
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