Making a Murderer (Spoilers)

NDWorld247

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IMO the ex boyfriend needs to be seriously looked into.
His little flash of duper's delight on the stand gave him away.

I actually thought the ex-boyfriend seemed genuine. I was more interested in her male roommate who never reported her missing and never appeared on camera.

I thought it was the brother that broke into the phone? Maybe I'm wrong. Thought the boyfriend was on the computer or something.

I thought it was the ex-boyfriend AND roommate working together to guess her password and get into her phone.
 

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I actually thought the ex-boyfriend seemed genuine. I was more interested in her male roommate who never reported her missing and never appeared on camera.

And he couldn't recall when the last time he saw her was. Like morning/afternoon/night, how can you have a clear memory of an interaction like that and not be able to even bll park what time it was.

I thought it was the ex-boyfriend AND roommate working together to guess her password and get into her phone.

I'm pretty sure it was just the ex boyfriend. My take on that was that maybe when they were together he was controlling and would go through her phone and that's how he already knew the password. That's also probably something he might not want to admit.
 

Jimmy3Putt

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Not to mention, the phone provider said that someone deleted voicemails from after she was last seen. That person would have had to of had her password. Something the ex boyfriend admitted to when he said that he broke into her phone when she went missing by guessing the password.

Ha, I googled the ex boyfriend and this blog came up.
This guy watched the show and is convinced Ryan Hillegas did it to the point he flew to Wisconsin.

Ryan Hillegas Fooled Us All

It's an interesting theory and worth the read (first few entries).
 

Ironman8

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I thought similarly to all of y'all after finishing, but apparently there was a lot of evidence pointing to Avery that was not shown in the documentary, some of it pretty damning.

Either way, whether or not Avery is guilty or innocent though, there was definitely reasonable doubt and professional misconduct in both cases. I couldn't believe some of the actions of the officers and lawyers involved.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Just finished, so... SPOILERS:

I think they both did it. I think Brendan's original admission was him being honest, I believe his subsequent admission was him being honest, I believe his breaking down, crying and telling his cousin (who gave the statement to the police) was him being honest.

I believe it was collusion by the family to keep everyone on the same page. Brendan was always trying to answer things correctly. The girl recanted on stand and you could tell she was trying to do what was expected of her. When Brendan and his cousin both recanted, neither of them offered plausible reasons why they would lie to officers.

I believe the family got in her ear and made sure she'd play ball. I believe Brendan is serving a life sentence because of his mother. If he takes the plea deal, he goes to jail for 15 years or less with early parole and this isn't a story.

I believe the evidence too damning. I believe many of the pieces don't fit together perfectly but they don't need to for a conviction. There is enough there for me to believe Stephen did it.

The intellectual disparity between all of us is alarming. Like many of you, Brendan broke my heart with his illiteracy and complete lack of understanding. I believe he is a victim of his uncle's deranged mind. Perhaps Stephen was broken in prison, or perhaps he was that way all along. Whatever the cause, I believe him to be guilty.

And the government is crooked as f&*k.

***And the defense team was the balls. Gawdamn, I hope at some point in my life I come across as eloquent and self-possessed.
 
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gkIrish

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Just finished, so... SPOILERS:

I think they both did it. I think Brendan's original admission was him being honest, I believe his subsequent admission was him being honest, I believe his breaking down, crying and telling his cousin (who gave the statement to the police) was him being honest.

I believe it was collusion by the family to keep everyone on the same page. Brendan was always trying to answer things correctly. The girl recanted on stand and you could tell she was trying to do what was expected of her. When Brendan and his cousin both recanted, neither of them offered plausible reasons why they would lie to officers.

I believe the family got in her ear and made sure she'd play ball. I believe Brendan is serving a life sentence because of his mother. If he takes the plea deal, he goes to jail for 15 years or less with early parole and this isn't a story.

I believe the evidence too damning. I believe many of the pieces don't fit together perfectly but they don't need to for a conviction. There is enough there for me to believe Stephen did it.

The intellectual disparity between all of us is alarming. Like many of you, Brendan broke my heart with his illiteracy and complete lack of understanding. I believe he is a victim of his uncle's deranged mind. Perhaps Stephen was broken in prison, or perhaps he was that way all along. Whatever the cause, I believe him to be innocent.

And the government is crooked as f&*k.

***And the defense team was the balls. Gawdamn, I hope at some point in my life I come across as eloquent and self-possessed.

Dude....how in the world do you think Brendan did anything? Did you watch any of his confession tapes? He didn't offer a single piece of original information to the cops. They fed him everything. How could it have happened the way he said it did if there was no physical evidence in the bedroom or garage. No blood anywhere in the house.

His mother placed him at home at the time of the presumed murder. Everything they alleged the cousin said to the cops was stuff she could have heard on television. I mean the list goes on and on.

I can understand how you can think Avery did it but there's no way that Brendan did it.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Dude....how in the world do you think Brendan did anything? Did you watch any of his confession tapes? He didn't offer a single piece of original information to the cops. They fed him everything. How could it have happened the way he said it did if there was no physical evidence in the bedroom or garage. No blood anywhere in the house.

His mother placed him at home at the time of the presumed murder. Everything they alleged the cousin said to the cops was stuff she could have heard on television. I mean the list goes on and on.

I can understand how you can think Avery did it but there's no way that Brendan did it.

Being illiterate/mentally-retarded does not mean you can't be guilty. I believe he was born into a fucked up family and he tried to play by their rules. I believe the family to have devised the masterplan in hopes of beating the charge. I believe his mother is as awful a human being as Stephen.

My initial thoughts were further corroborated by this (which I just read after my reply above): Evidence left out of the show, click me
 

gkIrish

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Being illiterate/mentally-retarded does not mean you can't be guilty. I believe he was born into a fucked up family and he tried to play by their rules. I believe the family to have devised the masterplan in hopes of beating the charge. I believe his mother is as awful a human being as Stephen.

My initial thoughts were further corroborated by this (which I just read after my reply above): Evidence left out of the show, click me

So you think because Avery bought chains a couple weeks before (which he probably told Brendan about which is why he knew about them) and because there was DNA evidence on the hood of the car Brendan is guilty? That's pretty weak corroborating evidence.

Just explain to me how there was no blood anywhere in that house if he slit her throat in the bedroom and moved her to the garage and shot here there...Oh and he also raped her according to his confession.
 
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So you think because Avery bought chains a couple weeks before (which he probably told Brendan about which is why he knew about them) and because there was DNA evidence on the hood of the car Brendan is innocent? That's pretty weak corroborating evidence.

Just explain to me how there was no blood anywhere in that house if he slit her throat in the bedroom and moved her to the garage and shot here there...Oh and he also raped her according to his confession.

And the hair. Brendan said that they cut off her hair with a knife in the bedroom, that hair would be EVERYWHERE! No way they could have possibly cleaned every piece of hair from that garbage pit of a trailer.
 

tussin

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Just explain to me how there was no blood anywhere in that house if he slit her throat in the bedroom and moved her to the garage and shot here there...Oh and he also raped her according to his confession.

...it's because the poor, borderline mentally handicapped murderers also have the ability to clean a crime scene better than the most sophisticated homicide professionals in the world.

They stabbed and raped Theresa on a mattress in the bedroom, took her out to the garage and shot her. Then they went to the bed room and efficiently removed all of her blood/DNA from the mattress and carpet. Then they went to the garage and wiped her blood from the concrete floor, between the cracks of concrete, wiped down every single item in the garage, and had the wherewithal to subsequently reintroduce their own DNA to most of the items in the garage so it wouldn't look too clean.

EDIT: I also want to point out that it's obvious Dassey was complicit in the crime, despite the fact that when he was arrested he thought he would be home in time to see Wrestlemania.
 
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Blazers46

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Started watching and now I can't go to bed without watching the whole thing. Going to be a long night.
 

woolybug25

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Being illiterate/mentally-retarded does not mean you can't be guilty. I believe he was born into a fucked up family and he tried to play by their rules. I believe the family to have devised the masterplan in hopes of beating the charge. I believe his mother is as awful a human being as Stephen.

My initial thoughts were further corroborated by this (which I just read after my reply above): Evidence left out of the show, click me

I addressed that article earlier in the thread, as did the producers of the show. Not only is some of that information factually incorrect, but also some of it wasn't even left out of the documentary. This is a documentary that's over ten hours long and took a decade to make, so it's strange that this same poorly written article and the comments of a DA that was fired for sexually harassing a rape victim are getting so much play.

Did you actually watch the entire documentary? How in the hell could Brendan's story be accurate? First of all, it was told to him, not openly admitted in his own words. Secondly, there is zero chance they could have raped her, slit her throat and stabbed her in the house and then shot her in the garage without creating any dna evidence?
 
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BleedBlueGold

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Brendan is absolutely innocent, imo, and it shouldn't even be a question. The prosecutors in his investigation/trial based their entire case on his confession.

-His alibi and his timeline do not match that of the murder
-There is NONE of his DNA anywhere in the crime scene. ZERO.
-The evidence gathered does not match his confession (see posts above)
-When they asked how he made it up, he said books. Specifically, Kiss the Girls (which was also made into a movie). This is significant because 1) Brendan's reading level is probably below that of this book and 2) In the movie, the killer cuts off the girl's hair (this apparently did not happen in the book). Brendan basically described a crime from a movie to the cops just to get them off his back, not comprehending that he just confessed to an actual murder and he'd be arrested.

-The jury in his case should be investigated for being complete fucking idiots. They clearly had their minds made up and it didn't matter what happened in court, they were going to find him guilty. No rational, logical, practical, intelligent person convicts a kid of murder (especially all three counts!) based on the evidence (or lack thereof) provided in court in this specific case.
 

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So you think because Avery bought chains a couple weeks before (which he probably told Brendan about which is why he knew about them) and because there was DNA evidence on the hood of the car Brendan is guilty? That's pretty weak corroborating evidence.

Just explain to me how there was no blood anywhere in that house if he slit her throat in the bedroom and moved her to the garage and shot here there...Oh and he also raped her according to his confession.
  • I believe the chains are an interesting piece but not damning.
  • I think Stephen's DNA on the hood of the car is damning (given Brendan described it and it didn't come from a vial of blood).
  • I think Stephen answering the door in a towel (earlier) to meet this photographer is interesting but not damning.
  • I believe the bullet that was fired from his 22 that had her DNA on it is interesting.
  • Stephen using *67 to call the photographer a couple times before she arrived is interesting (was this verified in phone records?)
  • Stephen coating a cat in oil and throwing it in a fire is interesting.
  • The blood lacking EDTA is interesting. I don't believe EDTA has a short half-life so the lack of it's presence in the crime scene samples that were analyzed was damning. And my background is in chemistry, so I'm fairly certain I understand the test and sample size. The defense's strategy here was the only one I found unconvincing. They attempted to discredit the FBI analyst by getting him to conclude there was likely no EDTA present in the car. As a chemist, if you take three samples and they all return negative, there's a high chance of certainty all other samples would test similar. It is theoretically possible the three samples they received each tested negative and another sample would've tested positive if it was from the vial but at what point do the theoretical and the improbable converge?

    Further, how much blood had to be removed from that vial to plant it all over the car. It was Stephen's blood near the ignition and in the back seat and passenger side, yes?
  • I was ready to discard Brendan's involvement, believing maybe he was pressured to lie, twice but when his cousin's testimony came out, it was too much to handle. Dacey was despondent, losing weight, emotionally withdrawn and he confided in her. She could offer no plausible reason why she made up that story? Was she held for questioning, no. She freely offered the information to the police, believing she was doing the right thing. Then the family got together and....the stories changed.

    I do believe Brendan's story was incomplete/inconsistent and the lack of evidence in the trailer bought Stephen some time but whether the rape occurred in his bedroom (almost impossible) or in the garage (far more possible) or somewhere else, I believe it did occur.

    Brendan wasn't fed the line about the rape or cutting her throat, etc because the officers couldn't have known that happened. He was heavily pressured to say she was shot amongst other things.

    The interrogation techniques are common practice from what I've heard so I don't know if anything was uncouth by the investigators, I believe it was his attorney that did him the greatest disservice.

I addressed that article earlier in the thread, as did the producers of the show. Not only is some of that information factually incorrect, but also some of it wasn't even left out of the documentary. This is a documentary that's over ten hours long and took a decade to make, so it's strange that this same poorly written article and the comments of a DA that was fired for sexually harassing a rape victim are getting so much play.

Did you actually watch the entire documentary? How in the hell could Brendan's story be accurate? First of all, it was told to him, not openly admitted in his own words. Secondly, there is zero chance they could have raped her, slit her throat and stabbed her in the house and then shot her in the garage without creating any dna evidence?

I went back and read through and didn't see how you addressed it, besides making ad hominem's against the DA. I thought he was a sleezeball but that has no effect on this case. The comments from the DA should carry as much weight, he was a part of it. The filmmakers don't deserve any more respect or lack of questioning than the other sources. There is no unbiased source in this.

The article isn't being given as much weight if you read my reply, I read it after I had formed my conclusion but it did help further corroborate what I believed. If you care to explain what was incorrect and why or point me to it, I'd love to read it as the information/misinformation is incredible.
 

tussin

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  • I believe the chains are an interesting piece but not damning.
  • I think Stephen's DNA on the hood of the car is damning (given Brendan described it and it didn't come from a vial of blood).
  • I think Stephen answering the door in a towel (earlier) to meet this photographer is interesting but not damning.
  • I believe the bullet that was fired from his 22 that had her DNA on it is interesting.
  • Stephen using *67 to call the photographer a couple times before she arrived is interesting (was this verified in phone records?)
  • Stephen coating a cat in oil and throwing it in a fire is interesting.
  • The blood lacking EDTA is interesting.
  • I was ready to discard Brendan's involvement, believing maybe he was pressured to lie, twice but when his cousin's testimony came out, it was too much to handle.

So, the only damning piece of evidence you described can easily be explained by Avery leaning against the hood of her car when he went out to meet her for the pictures.

Regarding the EDTA, I agree that the initial response by the defense was not effective. However, the second expert reasonably and effectively explained how the FBI's testing method could have been flawed. As a juror, I would not have placed any weight on the FBI testing.
 

Henges24

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I find it funny that when people say that it is possible that they cleaned the entire crime scene of DNA and any blood in the garage/bedroom that they just miraculously forgot to clean the car of their DNA just leaving the blood there in clear site.

Also if they were smart enough to hide the car in their own auto salvage dump right behind their house they wouldn't be smart enough to clean an entire crime scene.
 
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woolybug25

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I'll answer these in detail when I can get to a cpu, but you're missing some major points of why the info in that article is misleading (it's the same article posted on a bunch of sites). But here is some high level;

- They claim that this info was all missing from the documentary, when the cat and gun are clearly both mentioned. Not to mention, they are misquoting as the cat was not covered in oil and it happened decades before the crime. The gun also had no sprayback on it and the dna expert testified that it would have had to had it if it was the weapon (after all , it was a squirrel gun). Not to mention, this was also found by Leck during the 8 day access to his property.

- You do realize that his family owned and ran a salvage yard, right? In the show (again, they claim it was missing, it wasn't) they clearly mention that they had auto trader come often because... You guessed it... They own a salvage yard. Seems like a good reason for buying a common tool like chains as well.

- Keep in mind, Brendan's entire admission was first TOLD to him and he simply agreed or gave one word answers. Then gave the details of a movie when pressed. (Kiss the girls)

- You claim to believe that the rape happened in the garage. Where's the DNA evidence? No sweat or semen was found. Do you also believe she was killed there? It would be pretty hard to cover up the dna evidence of a rape, double stabbing and gun shot inside of a garage.

I could go on and on. But it's all despite the fact that Avery and Brendan clearly did not receive fair trials. Which everyone is entitled to.

Edit - Also... This documentary would have been 600 hours if they had to account for every aspect of every piece of evidence. They definitely were thorough with the making sure the biggest parts of the case (both positive and negative for Avery) were presented.
 
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nlroma1o

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Brendan is absolutely innocent, imo, and it shouldn't even be a question. The prosecutors in his investigation/trial based their entire case on his confession.

-His alibi and his timeline do not match that of the murder
-There is NONE of his DNA anywhere in the crime scene. ZERO.
-The evidence gathered does not match his confession (see posts above)
-When they asked how he made it up, he said books. Specifically, Kiss the Girls (which was also made into a movie). This is significant because 1) Brendan's reading level is probably below that of this book and 2) In the movie, the killer cuts off the girl's hair (this apparently did not happen in the book). Brendan basically described a crime from a movie to the cops just to get them off his back, not comprehending that he just confessed to an actual murder and he'd be arrested.

-The jury in his case should be investigated for being complete fucking idiots. They clearly had their minds made up and it didn't matter what happened in court, they were going to find him guilty. No rational, logical, practical, intelligent person convicts a kid of murder (especially all three counts!) based on the evidence (or lack thereof) provided in court in this specific case.

I have been telling people this over and over. So many people seem to miss this part of the trial.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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So, the only damning piece of evidence you described can easily be explained by Avery leaning against the hood of her car when he went out to meet her for the pictures.

Regarding the EDTA, I agree that the initial response by the defense was not effective. However, the second expert reasonably and effectively explained how the FBI's testing method could have been flawed. As a juror, I would not have placed any weight on the FBI testing.

The second expert only explained the limits of scientific investigation. We can't ever prove with 100% there is no EDTA in the blood in the car. We can only say what we tested didn't show EDTA. If no EDTA is detected, it's the logical result between two things: Either there was no EDTA present or the test didn't detect it. I don't know what the certainty level is behind the test but for it to be admissible in the court means it's results should be accepted.

I actually listed a few pieces of damning evidence and I also believe everything together is comprehensively damning. Some pieces are coincidental but too many coincidences make the probability continue to rise. When you hear hoofbeats in Indiana, you look for a deer, not a zebra.

I find it funny that when people say that it is possible that they cleaned the entire crime scene of DNA and any blood in the garage/bedroom that they just miraculously forgot to clean the car of their DNA just leaving the blood there in clear site.

Also if they were smart enough to hide the car in their own auto salvage dump right behind their house they wouldn't be smart enough to clean an entire crime scene.

This is a fair point and one I wrestled with during the show (and still do). I was team innocent almost 50% of the show. I kept going back and forth but everything together was too much. I do believe what you bring up is a valid question: how did they manage to clean the crime scene so well but forget to clean the car? And how did they forget to use their car crusher? And why didn't they use the incinerator for her body?

These are valid questions that most of us would've done if we were murderers but I imagine the majority of our posters aren't 70 IQ'ers. (let's not speculate on which posters may meet that criteria, I'm sure some may assume I do given my stance in this thread :) )

I'll answer these in detail when I can get to a cpu, but you're missing some major points of why the info in that article is misleading (it's the same article posted on a bunch of sites). But here is some high level;

- They claim that this info was all missing from the documentary, when the cat and gun are clearly both mentioned. Not to mention, they are misquoting as the cat was not covered in oil and it happened decades before the crime. The gun also had no sprayback on it and the dna expert testified that it would have had to had it if it was the weapon (after all , it was a squirrel gun). Not to mention, this was also found by Leck during the 8 day access to his property.

- You do realize that his family owned and ran a salvage yard, right? In the show (again, they claim it was missing, it wasn't) they clearly mention that they had auto trader come often because... You guessed it... They own a salvage yard. Seems like a good reason for buying a common tool like chains as well.

- Keep in mind, Brendan's entire admission was first TOLD to him and he simply agreed or gave one word answers.

- You claim to believe that the rape happened in the garage. Where's the DNA evidence? No sweat or semen was found. Do you also believe she was killed there? It would be pretty hard to cover up the dna evidence of a rape, double stabbing and gun shot inside of a garage.

I could go on and on. But it's all despite the fact that Avery and Brendan clearly did not receive fair trials. Which everyone is entitled to.

To the bolded: important note about it happening decades before the crime but still somewhat relevant. Isn't it known in psychology circles that animal cruelty is a key precursor to human cruelty/violence? It's not a guaranteed progression but it should still be kept in mind no matter how long ago it occurred.

The DNA expert testified she would've expected the gun to have DNA on it if it were used for a close quarters shooting. There are a number of ways to clean the gun after a homicide, especially if you have a few days to do it. He could've also shot her from a few yards away to avoid contaminating the weapon.

We're in the realm of speculation so I don't want to go too far with it.

I thought Stephen received more than a fair trial. If that evidence had been discovered in our homes, the trial wouldn't have lasted 3 days. That is damning evidence and it was only his defense team that bought him so much time.

Brendan's trial is a toss-up. His admission was obviously the biggest piece of evidence, coupled with his cousin's statement that was ultimately withdrawn. The lack of hard evidence is difficult to grapple with but with the body burned (expert testimony claiming it was on-site), it was impossible to test for semen, beneath fingernails, etc.

I'm throwing this out there not as a juror but one of the public, who consumed this post trial.

If Stephen and Brendan didn't do it, who killed her? I'm interested in the theories.
 
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NDWorld247

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'Making a Murderer' filmmakers: Original juror believes Steven Avery was framed - TODAY.com

Apologies for not pasting the article as I can't on my phone...

The "vote-trading" makes no sense to me as the only count they needed to put him away for life was murder. Why would the jurors who thought he was not guilty compromise with this type of trade that results in him being locked up for life? The article says they feared for their life, which helps answer my question, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.
 

tussin

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Veritas --

1. Forget about how they apparently forgot to clean the car. What are the odds that Dumb and Dumber have the ability to effectively sweep all of her DNA from the carpet, mattress, garage floor, cracks in the floor, and all of the items in the garage? Did you see how much shit was in there? It looks like a bomb went off. Also, what are the odds that Avery would then spread his DNA back on the floor so as not to make the crime scene look "too clean"?

2. You seem to give the benefit of a ton of circumstantial evidence to the prosecution, but none to the defense. There is TONS of circumstantial evidence that point to evidence tampering. No point in listing it all.

3. I think most would agree that, at a minimum, the state's timeline and version of events is entirely wrong. I don't see how a juror can say he is guilty beyond doubt.
 

woolybug25

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Veritas --

1. Forget about how they apparently forgot to clean the car. What are the odds that Dumb and Dumber have the ability to effectively sweep all of her DNA from the carpet, mattress, garage floor, cracks in the floor, and all of the items in the garage? Did you see how much shit was in there? It looks like a bomb went off. Also, what are the odds that Avery would then spread his DNA back on the floor so as not to make the crime scene look "too clean"?

2. You seem to give the benefit of a ton of circumstantial evidence to the prosecution, but none to the defense. There is TONS of circumstantial evidence that point to evidence tampering. No point in listing it all.

3. I think most would agree that, at a minimum, the state's timeline and version of events is entirely wrong. I don't see how a juror can say he is guilty beyond doubt.

Not to mention, the DNA expert testified that they checked for cleaning products and found none. So not only would they haven't have been smart enough to clean everything, but good enough to make it impossible to even find cleaners like bleach.

Veritas - If you think he's guilty and prosecuted fairly, then what piece(s) of evidence are you basing your opinion of "guilt above reasonable doubt" on specifically?
 

GDomer09

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I hate being that guy who postulates on far fetched theories but...

Am I the only one who found the brother/boyfriend shady? Especially the interview where the brother is answering for the boyfriend on their searching of the Avery compound.

My wife & I thought the same thing. Especially the way the brother acted so damn sure that Steven and Brendan did it. He was so matter fact that it came off as if he was persuading the public/jury to believe they were guilty. Then again maybe he got paid to be that way.

Also the phone messages being deleted by him and the ex-boyfriend seemed shady. I can see listening to the messages, but why delete them?
 

Brirish

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Making a Murderer (Spoilers)

Lolololol died when I read this


5dbcfe9d5b3ed43f9249f586cc03bf86.jpg
 

wizards8507

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Mid episode 3. Fuck the police.

And fuck lawyers too. The abuse of a child with a developmental disability is fucking disgusting.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.
 
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Brirish

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Even if he truly is guilty. The level of professional misconduct in both trials is very troubling.

How could the lawyer let Brendon be interrogated without him being present? Horrible representation. Totally gave away his 5th amendment right as well.

Investigators "do you remember your Miranda rights we read to you? (4 months ago?) *to a kid in special education classes.



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NDWorld247

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<script type="text/javascript" src="http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=4687060804001&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at <a href="http://video.foxnews.com">video.foxnews.com</a></noscript>

Fox had Kratz (prosecutor) and Strang (defense attorney) on yesterday and they shared one piece of info that wasn't in the documentary and that I haven't seen in any of the "evidence that wasn't in the documentary" articles.

First, Megyn Kelly asks Kratz about the lack of DNA in Avery's room and garage. He tries his best not to answer the question but Kelly follows up. Then, Kratz explains they used bleach to clean it up and says traces of bleach were found on Brendan's pants, which is something I haven't seen anywhere.

Coincidentally (or not?), Clorox bleach is the advertisement I got before watching the video. lol.
 
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