LSU to file for bankruptcy?

[pkt77242]

I think that Louisiana would be much better off following the Minnesota path then the Wisconsin/Kansas/Arizona path, unfortunately it seems that they won't.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This thread is sad. It has, by in large, become a recitation of stereotypical clichés. There is no information here, just jaded political operatives, pushing their own agendas.

A) Pensions : If an agreement is in place during the time an employee works, specifying retirement benefits; pay him. It was part of the reason that employee did that job.

Anyone who sees arbitrarily cutting others pensions, deserves to have the value of their home go down the crapper. 500k mortgage on a 300K house, like that.

Both are examples of theft perpetrated on the American public in the last ten years. And every analysis shows that it is so the rich can get richer.

B) Not saying that some folks in education don't have their heads up their asses, but generally, education has been the backbone of the upwardly mobile American social structure.

It is being gutted as Jay said clearly, at the primary and secondary level, as well as the post-secondary, all for corporate profit. Forget the fact that Pierson (A British Company for example) is reaping huge rewards for a captive American audience that our own legislators have screwed into compliance, wait until you all face the bill for the way the profiteers, masquerading as social conservatives and libertarians with our children's best interest at heart, have totally raped the best overall education system in the world for obscene corporate profits.

C) You can show some people over and over, and they still can't see what is happening until it is too late!

D) And also, private as well as public retirement funds have been ruthlessly raided over the last ten years, so no one can use the excuse that a single group underperformed, so they should forfeit some or all of their pensions. Anyone here want to admit that their pension is overgenerous, and that they really don't deserve it? (Crickets . . . Thought so!)

 

[Wild Bill]

They do fund part of their own retirement. Heck if you work for a large company they most likely pay something towards your retirement (matching 401k or something else). Also many government workers make less then private sector employees in equivalent positions (most not all) and the pension is what they get for accepting less pay. Think of it as deferred pay.

Lastly what does that article have to do with Louisiana. The majority of Louisiana's shortfall is due to tax cuts.

Nothing. His question wasn't specific to Louisiana.

 

[NOLAIrish]

Not enough information to determine if LSU has internal issues it is refusing to deal with.

They seem to be fairly effective with what they spend per student. I don't think that should ever be lost in the discussion. It seems the core function is being performed fairly well. What else is going on...???

I'm sure there's flab in just about every public university system. The underlying issue here, though, is that the state has both a balanced budget provision in its constitution and a massive number of statutory dedications (i.e. minimum, mandatory funding levels for specific programs) in its laws. In essence, the state must present a balanced budget each year and is only allowed to cut higher education and certain components of health care (primarily, non-hospital and non-nursing-home providers) to offset a revenue shortfall. The state also has a nuclear option where it can institute level across-the-board cuts to every public program, but that provision has never been used before and would be devastating to the state infrastructure. You wind up with a system where quite a few publicly-funded programs have significant overspending but you can't shift their funds over to fill the gap because state law or the state constitution prohibit their funding from falling below a certain level (plus an inflation adjustment). Instead, health care and higher ed take a dive every time we miss our revenue mark.

We got into a similar position in the early 70s and actually had to call a constitutional convention and pass a new constitution to remove all of the dedications. Took us all of 40 years to get ourselves back over that barrel. I think we're on constitution number 11 since the state joined the Union.

Past tax cuts aren't the only culprit behind the state's budget position. The decline in oil revenue driven by low gas prices is a huge hit. That pulled several hundred million dollars out of state coffers this year compared to last. There are also some significant funding quirks related to federal reimbursement rates that are driving a big portion of the gap.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We got into a similar position in the early 70s and actually had to call a constitutional convention and pass a new constitution to remove all of the dedications. Took us all of 40 years to get ourselves back over that barrel. I think we're on constitution number 11 since the state joined the Union.

I'm sure there's an interesting "Common Law v. Civil Law" angle here.

 

[woolybug25]

I responded to a cliche left wing statement that wasn't specific to Louisiana's current budget crisis:





Pensions destroying state budgets? It's not a talking point, it's a real problem that has to be resolved.

Illinois Faces Big Revenue Hit in 2015 - WSJ

And it'll be resolved on the backs of the tax payers, whether it's through increased taxation or loss of services tax payers rely on.

There would be no need to define early if public employees funded their own pensions.

It simply makes no sense to me that I should have to dig in my pocket for an extra 2% each year and pay for someone else's pension while I'm sitting here trying to fund my own retirement. That's far from extreme. A huge majority of private employees feel the same way.

You're trying to compare your opinions on your states in particular issues and making broad generalizations regarding policy of a state in which you don't seemingly understand yet. In the short Google search, I found that these pensions were agreed upon years ago. They were also contributed to by the teachers themselves. Their retirement also must get to a certain tenure to vest, and then are distributed on a sliding scale depending on how long they worked?

How is this much different then the matching your company is probably doing to your 401k?

Per my research, the deficit is a state deficit, not a pension fund deficit. They have $300M in their fund and $12B in future pension debts. When you consider that it's a fund that continually contributed to over time. The second link references that this is really Jindal robbing Peter to pay Paul. Essentially taking funds that were agreed upon and earned through a mutual agreement between the teachers and the state. Now, they want to renig on that agreement in order to pay for the irresponsibility of the state government. The teachers held up their end of the bargain, the state is who seemingly seems to be the culprit in this scenario.

On another note, if you are a teacher, why would you ever want to work in Louisiana? Terrible rankings, pay and the state will rob your pension fund in order to make up deficents in the general fund?

Teacher’s Retirement System of Louisiana (TRSL) | LSU System

Battle over Louisiana pension funds shaping up | LSU | The Advocate — Baton Rouge, Louisiana

 

[Redbar]

You're trying to compare your opinions on your states in particular issues and making broad generalizations regarding policy of a state in which you don't seemingly understand yet. In the short Google search, I found that these pensions were agreed upon years ago. They were also contributed to by the teachers themselves. Their retirement also must get to a certain tenure to vest, and then are distributed on a sliding scale depending on how long they worked?

How is this much different then the matching your company is probably doing to your 401k?

Per my research, the deficit is a state deficit, not a pension fund deficit. They have $300M in their fund and $12B in future pension debts. When you consider that it's a fund that continually contributed to over time. The second link references that this is really Jindal robbing Peter to pay Paul. Essentially taking funds that were agreed upon and earned through a mutual agreement between the teachers and the state. Now, they want to renig on that agreement in order to pay for the irresponsibility of the state government. The teachers held up their end of the bargain, the state is who seemingly seems to be the culprit in this scenario.

On another note, if you are a teacher, why would you ever want to work in Louisiana? Terrible rankings, pay and the state will rob your pension fund in order to make up deficents in the general fund?

Teacher’s Retirement System of Louisiana (TRSL) | LSU System

Battle over Louisiana pension funds shaping up | LSU | The Advocate — Baton Rouge, Louisiana

This is exactly what is going on here.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

This is exactly what is going on here.

Exactly. They went to work under certain terms. They performed well enough to be promoted and earn tenure over a period of many years. They contributed to their own pension for their entire careers. Now they have their retirement stripped in favor of tax cuts. That's a breaking of a contract, not fiscal responsibility.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Full disclosure, I have friends who are professors at LSU.

 

[NOLAIrish]

I'm sure there's an interesting "Common Law v. Civil Law" angle here.

Our constitution is surprisingly tame compared to our historical legal uniqueness. Our governmental structure is pretty typical -- Governor with veto power, bicameral legislature with 4 year terms and 2 term limits (legislators can hop to the other chamber after hitting their limit and are allowed to serve unlimited nonconsecutive terms).

The main Civil Law legacy you'll find in the constitution is twofold: we prohibit the adoption of bodies of law by reference (so no "X, Y, and whatever the common law says, too" provisions) and we have an extreme amount of detail in our constitution. The document is over 100 pages long and gets really specific on taxes and dedications and governance. Still, we're slowly reigning in the length of the document: the previous constitution was 5 times longer.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I'm disappointed in you guys. 70 posts in, and you've yet to post this...smh.

<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="344" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xuuv0syoHnM" width="459"></iframe>

 

[Wild Bill]

You're trying to compare your opinions on your states in particular issues and making broad generalizations regarding policy of a state in which you don't seemingly understand yet. In the short Google search, I found that these pensions were agreed upon years ago. They were also contributed to by the teachers themselves. Their retirement also must get to a certain tenure to vest, and then are distributed on a sliding scale depending on how long they worked?

I didn't compare the two states in any of my posts. I linked an article regarding Illinois in response to a general question.

How is this much different then the matching your company is probably doing to your 401k?

The difference is in the disbursements. 401k disbursements are dictated by how much money the retiree has invested and how long they believe they may live. While pension disbursements, at least in Illinois, are dictated by the amount retirees earn immediately prior to retiring (last two years I believe). Conveniently, many of the recipients receive a nice pay raise prior to retirement, commonly referred to as a pension spike, so they can lock in a lifetime benefit that far exceeds their overall average salary. I can't scam...I mean spike my 401k disbursements, I'm sorry to say.

401k disbursements don't enjoy cost of living adjustments.

If my 401k is prematurely depleted, whether it's a result of mismanagement or circumstances out of my control, I can't go to the taxpayers and ask for a re-fill.

Taxpayers shouldn't have to bear the burden of funding pensions b/c politicians twenty years ago gave sweetheart deals to public unions in exchange for votes.

I would favor a system that used tax dollars to pay teachers a higher salary plus a 401k match and eliminate pensions altogether.

 

[woolybug25]

I didn't compare the two states in any of my posts. I linked an article regarding Illinois in response to a general question.



The difference is in the disbursements. 401k disbursements are dictated by how much money the retiree has invested and how long they believe they may live. While pension disbursements, at least in Illinois, are dictated by the amount retirees earn immediately prior to retiring (last two years I believe). Conveniently, many of the recipients receive a nice pay raise prior to retirement, commonly referred to as a pension spike, so they can lock in a lifetime benefit that far exceeds their overall average salary. I can't scam...I mean spike my 401k disbursements, I'm sorry to say.

401k disbursements don't enjoy cost of living adjustments.

If my 401k is prematurely depleted, whether it's a result of mismanagement or circumstances out of my control, I can't go to the taxpayers and ask for a re-fill.

Taxpayers shouldn't have to bear the burden of funding pensions b/c politicians twenty years ago gave sweetheart deals to public unions in exchange for votes.

I would favor a system that used tax dollars to pay teachers a higher salary plus a 401k match and eliminate pensions altogether.

Please read the second article I posted. It literally addresses every point you are trying to make. The tax payers aren't burdened by this system.

No one is going into your 401k and taking your company match or personal contributions. That is what they are trying to do here.

C'mon man... At least put a little effort into understanding the actual argument.

 

[Wild Bill]

Please read the second article I posted. It literally addresses every point you are trying to make. The tax payers aren't burdened by this system.

No one is going into your 401k and taking your company match or personal contributions. That is what they are trying to do here.

C'mon man... At least put a little effort into understanding the actual argument.

Please read the article I posted. Taxpayers are being burdened by the pension system in Illinois. As I said before, I didn't compare the two states.

 

[woolybug25]

Please read the article I posted. Taxpayers are being burdened by the pension system in Illinois. As I said before, I didn't compare the two states.

What does broken pension issues have to do with Louisanna's current issue, which again, isn't a pension issue. It's a state budget issue.

Like I said, the article addresses everything you mentioned as a concern. If you're not comparing the issues, and you're not accusing this issue to the issues with broken pension programs in other states (again, per the article, this isn't the same thing), then what exactly is your point?

 

[phgreek]

I'm sure there's flab in just about every public university system. The underlying issue here, though, is that the state has both a balanced budget provision in its constitution and a massive number of statutory dedications (i.e. minimum, mandatory funding levels for specific programs) in its laws. In essence, the state must present a balanced budget each year and is only allowed to cut higher education and certain components of health care (primarily, non-hospital and non-nursing-home providers) to offset a revenue shortfall. The state also has a nuclear option where it can institute level across-the-board cuts to every public program, but that provision has never been used before and would be devastating to the state infrastructure. You wind up with a system where quite a few publicly-funded programs have significant overspending but you can't shift their funds over to fill the gap because state law or the state constitution prohibit their funding from falling below a certain level (plus an inflation adjustment). Instead, health care and higher ed take a dive every time we miss our revenue mark.

We got into a similar position in the early 70s and actually had to call a constitutional convention and pass a new constitution to remove all of the dedications. Took us all of 40 years to get ourselves back over that barrel. I think we're on constitution number 11 since the state joined the Union.

Past tax cuts aren't the only culprit behind the state's budget position. The decline in oil revenue driven by low gas prices is a huge hit. That pulled several hundred million dollars out of state coffers this year compared to last. There are also some significant funding quirks related to federal reimbursement rates that are driving a big portion of the gap.

balanced ...non-partisan response...where am I? THANK YOU! Very helpful.

 

[Irish YJ]

pukash

 

[dales5050]

A) Pensions : If an agreement is in place during the time an employee works, specifying retirement benefits; pay him. It was part of the reason that employee did that job.

Anyone who sees arbitrarily cutting others pensions, deserves to have the value of their home go down the crapper. 500k mortgage on a 300K house, like that.

Both are examples of theft perpetrated on the American public in the last ten years. And every analysis shows that it is so the rich can get richer.

Sorry but you lack perspective here.

I understand the idea that someone 40 years ago took a job that paid $X in a salary but came with a pension. That salary, back then, was typically lower than the private sector. That employee could have looked at the whole picture and said it was a pretty good deal overall.

Where many public sectors have run into issues is over the last 40 years via union contracts purchased with votes is the salaries have gone up to the point of being equal or greater to the private sector. The sector without the guaranteed pension by and large. While at the same time the pension and it's triggers from 40+ years ago remain untouched or not modified enough to account for the massive increases in salary.

They have gotten gimmicks implemented on how pensions are calculated. For example, in San Diego a fireman's pension was based off the highest level they worked. It could have been for a year or a day. So what happened? Well at some point during their last year...everyone above the person just so happened to take the day off on the same day. So a guy could be promoted for the day. THAT IS THEFT. I could go on for days of similar examples all over the US.

The problem with people who think pensions are being attacked is that they usually approach the subject just like you are. From a position of the public servant who did no wrong. When in reality, unions have been robbing the taxpayers for decades. Unions negotiate under the collective whole but the union members cry as an individual. That's disingenuous at best.

Here is a question for you. You said people take these positions, in part, because of the pensions. We all know this to be the case. So why is it that when people who have a pension never factor in their guaranteed pension when they discuss their compensation?

If a teacher averages $60k a year over the course of their career and after 30 years is guaranteed a pension of 75%, that guarantee needs to be factored into their cost to be in a classroom.

So you take someone who is 25 and retires at 55 and lives to 75 God willing. That's 50 years of compensation ($60k x 25y = $1.5M + $45k x 20y = $900k) for a total of $2.4M. Apply that to the 25 years in the classroom and it's $96K a year. But when the picket signs go up, the numbers used are not the total compensation. Heck, the numbers used are not the average over the course of a career. It's usually the low end of the wage scale for the newest members in the union.

The math is rough but you know it to be true. When public servants start talking about their compensation rather than their salary maybe then you can have an honest conversation.

 

[kmoose]

You guys do realize a prof's main job is research, not teaching right? The amount they teach is pretty immaterial to the work they do,

How much research does an English professor do? Or a philosophy professor?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

They have gotten gimmicks implemented on how pensions are calculated. For example, in San Diego a fireman's pension was based off the highest level they worked. It could have been for a year or a day. So what happened? Well at some point during their last year...everyone above the person just so happened to take the day off on the same day. So a guy could be promoted for the day. THAT IS THEFT. I could go on for days of similar examples all over the US.

What you're describing here (I have no reason to believe it isn't true) is really terrible. I agree...it's theft.

That said, I have never seen anything similar in education. Teacher pensions are typically calculated based on a "high five" average. Being promoted for even a full year would only serve to bump the average. It wouldn't be the number upon which the pension is calculated. That's how it works in Louisiana.

Teacher’s Retirement System of Louisiana (TRSL) | LSU System

The compensation amount for employees hired on or after January 1, 2011, is calculated by the years of service and the average salary for the 60 highest successive months of earnings (see the sample calculation).

Public employees are hired under this plan. It's part of their contract.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

How much research does an English professor do? Or a philosophy professor?

At a Research I institution (link here)? Plenty. Like I said above, it's possibly 40% or more of their load. Look up the CV of any English or Philosophy professor at a Research I university and you'll find a list of their publications in peer-reviewed journals, books, book chapters, etc.

Their job is to further the knowledge in the field. The research might be historical (making an argument about the past based on primary and secondary sources), philosophical (forwarding ideas using logical reasoning), experimental (e.g., testing reading comprehension for people under different conditions), pedagogical (e.g., testing certain teaching techniques to gauge student learning), etc. Or they might be engaging in literary criticism about the author's intentions, how the work affected society, or how it grew out of the society of the time.

Make no mistake, professors at LSU who do not produce research are not retained. It's "publish or perish."

 

[dales5050]

What you're describing here (I have no reason to believe it isn't true) is really terrible. I agree...it's theft.

That said, I have never seen anything similar in education. Teacher pensions are typically calculated based on a "high five" average. Being promoted for even a full year would only serve to bump the average. It wouldn't be the number upon which the pension is calculated. That's how it works in Louisiana.

Teacher’s Retirement System of Louisiana (TRSL) | LSU System

Public employees are hired under this plan. It's part of their contract.

There are multiple cases of pension spiking in education. Just look for 'pension spiking legislation' and you see where. The key to all of it is it's 100% legal. Not honest but legal.

Some contracts allow sick time to be converted to deferred compensation and in turn teachers cash out on time in their last few years to spike their pension. Legal but not honest. You can't tell me someone can go 20 years without needed a day off. Instead they show up..coast for the day..and the kids suffer. Ever watch a movie in class when you were a kid?

In some states the pension is not to the school but a state system. So teachers will work in a suburban school for years and then transfer to an urban school that pays more for their last few years. If it's all about the kids you would think they would finish what they started at the same school. Legal but not honest.

Some contracts allow teachers to jump to union positions but have their pension calculated off the their salaries at the union. These positions come with huge increases in compensation, and in turn, higher pensions but the amount of their time in the classroom is minimal.

The flip of this, and it's only happened a handful of times but still disgusting, is the loophole where career union lobbyists will sub for a single day and then become eligible for a teachers pension because of their lifetime of service.

Again...100% legal. 100% not honest.


Don't get me wrong. I value education. I think teachers in K-12 should be paid 6 figures because that is what the work should be valued at. But that would not include a pension or tenure.

 

[ulukinatme]

How much research does an English professor do? Or a philosophy professor?

I don't know about those two, but an archaeological professor's travel and "research" budget must be huge.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I don't know about those two, but an archaeological professor's travel and "research" budget must be huge.

Even Dr. Jones tells his students that most archeological research is in the library.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Even Dr. Jones tells his students that most archeological research is in the library.

And the truth be told, even though is budget is stratospherical, he has a pretty good track record at the box office . . .

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

It should also be noted that from the school's POV, research has genuine financial value because it generates grants from public and private sources.

Tuition only covers a fraction of what schools spend per student so the non-teaching aspects of a university are a big part of its livelihood - and it generates a pool of graduate students who conduct teaching duties for their own academic benefit and extremely low financial compensation.

 

[BeauBenken]

One of my favorite professor's uneducated opinion on the matter (he had not heard about it until I mentioned it just half an hour ago), tax payer money was probably sent to overwhelming programs like the incarceration system and medicare.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

It should also be noted that from the school's POV, research has genuine financial value because it generates grants from public and private sources.

Tuition only covers a fraction of what schools spend per student so the non-teaching aspects of a university are a big part of its livelihood - and it generates a pool of graduate students who conduct teaching duties for their own academic benefit and extremely low financial compensation.

Absolutely. Many researchers actually fund their own salary through grants.

 

[ACamp1900]

Even Dr. Jones tells his students that most archeological research is in the library.

If you count special time spent with the female library staff......

 

[IrishJayhawk]

If you count special time spent with the female library staff......

Ah, Venice...