George Zimmerman Trial

[NDWorld247]

While I admit that this video appears to be a little biased, in it's presentation, it does bring up some good points. Most important, in my mind, is; if Trayvon felt threatened, and really was just a kid not looking for any trouble, then why didn't he just enter his father's house and be done with the situation? Or did he perhaps stick around and wait for Zimmerman to catch up to him, for the purpose of initiating a confrontation?

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Why does it take Trayvon 20+ minutes to walk a half mile? I googled how long it takes to walk a mile and, while not scientific, everything I read says 15-20 minutes. So, either Trayvon is twice as slow as the average walker or Mr. Martin rolled the blunt he had some random guys buy and took it to the dome before or during his walk, or during the 17 minutes he spent hanging out under cover at the clubhouse.

Did anyone watch the defense's closing argument today? How was it?

 

[GoIrish41]

Zimmerman's account of what happened makes up a huge chunk of the evidence in this trial. The degree to which the prosecution was able to demonstrate the inconsistencies in that story and how much weight they assign to why he had to embellish the "facts" will determine whether or not there will be a conviction in this case. Even those on the Zimmerman side have to admit that there are some serious inconsistencies in his account. If I'm a juror, I ask myself why did he have to make up pieces of this story if Martin attacked him, which calls into question whether what he said actually happened at all. I don't think the prosecution did a good job in coming up with a cohesive theory about what did happen, even if they were effective at punching a lot of holes in Zimmerman's account. If it was me giving the closing argument, I would have laid the foundation by saying that a lot of scenarios are possible, but the one that makes the most sense is probably what happened.

1. Little dispute that Zimmerman was angry and frustrated on the call to the police, which sets the initial foundation for the theory. An angry man chased a kid down and the kid ended up dead.

2. Little dispute that he followed Martin into the darkness to "find an address" a block away when logic would dictate you could find an address on either side of the block. I think it's fairly easy to reasonably prove that Zimmerman was following Martin vice his silly story about walking a block to find an address.

3. I can't get past the idea that Martin was on top of Zimmerman pounding on him, covering his bloody mouth and nose (yet had no blood on his hand), slamming his head into the sidewalk AND at the same time saw the gun that was concealed under two layers of clothing, tucked into his pants in a black holster at night underneath his body while he was clearly focused on delivering a beating. Even if he did somehow see the gun and went for it (no prints or DNA from Martin on the gun) It makes more sense to me that Martin had a much, much easier time getting the gun than the guy getting pounded. In my opinion, that bit of evidence suggests the gun was either already out or that the gun came out at another point during the altercation when Martin was not on top of Zimmerman delivering the beat down. This, to me, is the crux of the case and I would have spent a great deal of time during my closing arguments dissecting Zimmerman's account and offering an alternative to when exactly the gun was drawn to blow Zimmerman's self-defense claim out of the water. Again, the thing that makes the most sense is usually what probably happened.

4. The screaming on the tape ends abruptly following the gun shot even though Zimmerman contends that Martin was still alive and talking. He then holsters his gun and jumps on Martin's back (which is an absolutely absurd thing to do when you have a gun in your hand to keep him at bay) and spreads his hands out to restrain him and check for a weapon. AGAIN because he thought he was still alive and a danger. So, why would the screaming stop? Makes no sense and I would have spent a lot of time on painting a picture of a more likely scenario for the jury.

5. None of the eye witnesses seemed to have a great vantage to see what was going on, and certainly none of them saw the entire altercation. Mr. Good's testimony seemed to be the defense "star" witness, but he admitted to not having seen any punches landing and it being too dark for him to say with certainty who was on top and who was on the bottom during the fight. I don't think the prosecution did a very good job at discrediting his account. Without his account, I think Zimmerman's story would have been completely derailed.

There are other inconsistencies that would be worth focusing on, but those are the big ones for me. I would have tried to drive the point home that an innocent man would not have had to make up such stories. I am on the same page with the prosecution's side of the story, but I don't think they did particularly well at putting all the puzzle pieces together in such a way that the jury could see the full picture. Their burden of proof was much higher than the defense's and I'm not sure they rose to the occasion, which is sad because I think there was definitely enough to be far more effective than they appeared to be.

 

[FLDomer]

There is some dangerously stupid commentary going on in this thread right now, and I'm going to leave this wing nut circle jerk alone. But I do hope you guys at least consider asking yourselves why you don't care that a kid who was just walking home minding his own business got killed, and why you're so invested in his killer not being punished. I don't care how you rationalize it out loud. I just want you to have some real, honest introspection and see what you come up with.

Kinda like daily affirmations with Stewart Smalley?? Shall I bust out the mirror.....

 

[GoIrish41]

Why does it take Trayvon 20+ minutes to walk a half mile? I googled how long it takes to walk a mile and, while not scientific, everything I read says 15-20 minutes. So, either Trayvon is twice as slow as the average walker or Mr. Martin rolled the blunt he had some random guys buy and took it to the dome before or during his walk, or during the 17 minutes he spent hanging out under cover at the clubhouse.

Did anyone watch the defense's closing argument today? How was it?

Definately more cohesive than the prosecution and given their lower burden, I think it was pretty effective. I don't agree with their account, but the presentation was definately better.

As for the long walk home, he was talking on the phone and maybe wanted some privacy. I have teenagers and that is not a stretch to believe.

 

[Emcee77]

Not going to get into a back in forth with everyone that responded to my post (especially since some of the responses made no sense), but whether you buy Zimmerman's account or not there really isn't any debating that Martin was minding his own business before Zimmerman started following him around. That really isn't in dispute. And the fact that the kid is dead is tragic. Whether you think Zimmerman was ultimately justified in using deadly force does nothing to excuse the big picture point that this situation should never have happened and that our society at large is worse off because it did.

I don't think anyone hear is rooting for Zimmerman because they are glad he killed a kid and want him to "get away with it." I think people identify with or relate to him on some level (which I clearly don't, but it is a big world and it takes all kinds), and that is fine. But I feel like the open rooting for a guy that killed a kid and in some cases lionizing the guy is a little inappropriate. Even if you don't think he deserves to go to jail, he still killed a kid who set out to go get a snack, not rob a house or start a fight with the neighborhood watchman. Making it seem like the state did something wrong by trying this case, or vilifying people who have a hard time accepting that a kid can get killed and nobody has to answer for it doesn't come off real well.

All I'm saying is that you can have a different idea about how this case should turn out than I do, but the vitriol aimed at those you disagree with seems misplaced considering what the case is about.

Also, while I'm here, comparing this to the Duke lacrosse case is offensive. Yes, there was some public outrage in each case, but there the outrage turned out to be about something that didn't actually happen, whereas here a kid is actually dead and he was actually shot by the man on trial for killing him. Maybe the jury finds that he was justified in doing so, but if one person shoots another person the victim is entitled to a trying of the facts. To argue that there wasn't enough of a controversy here to warrant a trial is not being honest or realistic, as strongly as you may feel that he was justified.

Right, right, right. Great post.

The thing that I see happening everywhere in the discussion about this case, as happens with so many legal cases, high-profile or not, is confusion of the issue of right v. wrong with not guilty v. guilty. The criminal legal system isn't designed to vindicate the person who was "right." It's designed to preserve order by punishing people who have done wrongs that an orderly society cannot tolerate, in order to incapacitate them from committing further wrongs and deter others from committing wrongs. In my view, the best rule of self-defense, from a policy standpoint, is a rule that draws the line of acceptable provocation at non-physical provocation. Physical provocation means you lose your self-defense rights; non-physical means you don't. This is a country of free speech and I'm uncomfortable with burdening people's rights of expression by making them worry that if they offend someone, and that person is so offended that he attacks them, they won't be able to defend themselves.

NONE of that is to say that I think Zimmerman behaved in a way that was anything other than reprehensible in this case. He's a racial profiler and an officious intermeddler who sticks his stupid snout where it doesn't belong, and the fact that he chose to carry a dangerous weapon while he was being an officious intermeddler means that a kid is dead who didn't need to be. That's how I see it; I understand that many of you disagree. BUT, all that notwithstanding, unless I misunderstand the evidence, he can't be proven to have murdered anyone and he shouldn't go to jail. Although he provoked the crime by following Martin when he shouldn't have, it can't be proven that he physically provoked it. To put it glibly, wrong result in terms of punishing someone who did something "wrong"; but right result legally. And I'm ok with that.

 

[NDWorld247]

Definately more cohesive than the prosecution and given their lower burden, I think it was pretty effective. I don't agree with their account, but the presentation was definately better.

As for the long walk home, he was talking on the phone and maybe wanted some privacy. I have teenagers and that is not a stretch to believe.

Where did the blunt go? I think it's pretty safe to assume from watching the 7/11 surveillance that Trayvon, after getting denied trying to buy the blunt, had the other guys buy it for him.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...In my view, the best rule of self-defense, from a policy standpoint, is a rule that draws the line of acceptable provocation at non-physical provocation. Physical provocation means you lose your self-defense rights; non-physical means you don't. This is a country of free speech and I'm uncomfortable with burdening people's rights of expression by making them worry that if they offend someone, and that person is so offended that he attacks them, they won't be able to defend themselves...

I agree, and that's not just your and my view -- that's basically the way it's been in the Western world for literally over 1,000 years.

 

[magogian]

Hilarious. Apparently, the jury verdict form reads "So say we all" at the end.

All of This Has Happened Before And it Will all Happen Again

 

[FLDomer]

Wow that is menacing ... I'll bet you were terrified. What does that have to do with the potential for riots? Maybe she just didn't want to offend someone with a different opinion. That does not mean she was planning the logistics of the eminent riot, does it? Of course there are two sides -- that is evident from reading through this thread. I'm not going to riot no matter what happens. Which side am I on. [/I]

As for the local angle, if police are preparing in the event their are riots, that is certainly something that merits reporting so I can understand why there are reports about it in your local news. TAuthoritiies would be irresponsible not to be prepared "if" something happens. Preparing for that potential is a lot different than saying things like "the mob" is going to riot, which is what has been suggested over and over again on this thread.

Wow, douchey much? (this is in italics so dont get mad) I didn't say it was an indication of riots but how the issue has cause tension. Sit up in you state 1800 miles away am you are the expert on the tensions and atmosphere down here.

As for the prepping for riots, I was addressing you statement that the only media reporting chances of riots is FOX and its a "thought". I never was said there will be riot or "mob" you panties are in a bunch over something some other poster said.

 

[GoIrish41]

Where did the blunt go? I think it's pretty safe to assume from watching the 7/11 surveillance that Trayvon, after getting denied trying to buy the blunt, had the other guys buy it for him.

not sure, maybe he was smoking it on the way home and taking his time. Point is, he was not committing a capital offense by walking slowly or taking his time.

 

[jmurphy75]

Bingo you don't live here and I am saying, and I am sure jmurphy can atest, it's not just on FOX news. There was an article in local papers and have been mentions on local news and just the other day an article about Sanford PD and BSO working together to get prepared if there are riots. I pray there are no riots but God helps those who help themselves and why not be prepared for a REAL threat, instead of the worst happening and being caught with your pants down. The 44 days before the arrest mean jack **** compared to attention that the case has gotten and the clear lines that have been drawn.

Just yesterday I was picking my kids up from day care and I heard a young lady speaking with someone about the case and how that "lil boy was murdered by this white cat"...and when she saw me walk past, with a smile on my face, she quickly ended her conversation with, "I'll call you back when I get in the car".

The threat is here, we've directed our female salespeople to stay out of Sanford and our fuel trucks will only run until 8pm in the Sanford area until further notice. Many business's in the area are concerned as well, the police can only do so much and only against the large crowds. Most white people and white business owners are more worried about the possibility of smaller groups "retaliation" against an innocent verdict.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

Where did the blunt go? I think it's pretty safe to assume from watching the 7/11 surveillance that Trayvon, after getting denied trying to buy the blunt, had the other guys buy it for him.

Who cares? What relevance does it have even if he smoked 10 blunts? You are not allowed to kill someone for smoking a blunt and marijuana does not increase one's propensity to commit violent acts.

 

[GoIrish41]

Wow, douchey much? this is in italics so dont get mad I didn't say it was an indication of riots but how the issue has cause tension. Sit up in you state 1800 miles away am you are the expert on the tensions and atmosphere down here.

As for the prepping for riots, I was addressing you statement that the only media reporting chances of riots is FOX and its a "thought". I never was said there will be riot or "mob" you panties are in a bunch over something some other poster said.

sorry, wasn't specifically addressing the part about the "mob" at you.

I conceded that I have no doubt that tensions are high down there, but because people are tense does not mean that there is going to be a riot. That was the point I was trying to make. I know it wasn't you who was being so forceful about the opposite argument, and I do apologize for it appearing that way.

 

[FLDomer]

The threat is here, we've directed our female salespeople to stay out of Sanford and our fuel trucks will only run until 8pm in the Sanford area until further notice. Many business's in the area are concerned as well, the police can only do so much and only against the large crowds. Most white people and white business owners are more worried about the possibility of smaller groups "retaliation" against an innocent verdict.

Murph dont look at me I dont know sh!t ask GoIrish, he is the expert up there in PA on the goings on of Central Florida. Threats of riots, you crazy!...you racist!

 

[Irish Houstonian]

It is not the same at all. The girl in the Duke lacrosse case was never raped. The prosecutor withheld exculpatory DNA evidence, among other misconduct, and was later disbarred...

This is why I love internet debates: the vast potential for arguing past each other.

Me: A corvette is a lot like a camaro.

Anonymous Commenter: They're not the same at all.

 

[NDWorld247]

not sure, maybe he was smoking it on the way home and taking his time. Point is, he was not committing a capital offense by walking slowly or taking his time.

You're right, but he was impairing his judgment which ultimately led to his death. I'm not trying the case, and not saying he deserved to die because he was high, just putting two and two together to figure out the timeline.

Who cares? What relevance does it have even if he smoked 10 blunts? You are not allowed to kill someone for smoking a blunt and marijuana does not increase one's propensity to commit violent acts.

Marijuana impairs judgment. If he wasn't high maybe he decides to finish walking home instead of confronting Zimmerman.

 

[GoIrish41]

Murph dont look at me I dont know sh!t ask GoIrish, he is the expert up there in PA on the goings on of Central Florida. Threats of riots, you crazy!...you racist!

alright, I just said I was sorry for directing that your way and now this. I never suggested I was an expert on the goings on of Central Florida, in fact I said nothing of the sort. I said that just because people are tense does not mean there is going to be a riot.I'm not even saying there won't be riots. I'm saying that jumping to that conclusion is a bit of a stretch, especially since it didn't happen even in the month and a half before zimmerman was arrested. But you living down there makes you the expert on what every black person in Central Florida is thinking. I'm not sure how you can't see how that might be offensive to people.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Who do you think was on top?

Show of hands. How many see this as an accurate size differential between Zimmerman and Martin? Then you are silly. Martin was 5'11", 158 lbs at autopsy. Zimmerman weighs over 230Lbs. But who knows where his rapidly changing weight was at trial.

This is one indicative piece of the goofiness on this thread. It is the defenses job to lie for his client, which includes making the victim look guilty as hell.

 

[GoIrish41]

You're right, but he was impairing his judgment which ultimately led to his death. I'm not trying the case, and not saying he deserved to die because he was high, just putting two and two together to figure out the timeline.



Marijuana impairs judgment. If he wasn't high maybe he decides to finish walking home instead of confronting Zimmerman.

Or maybe he didn't confront Zimmerman at all and that is all a fabrication by Zimmerman so he can claim self defense. The whole imparing his judgement seems a bit speculative, too. Zimmerman was watching the kid for a while in the neighborhood and never suggested he was smoking.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

The threat is here, we've directed our female salespeople to stay out of Sanford and our fuel trucks will only run until 8pm in the Sanford area until further notice. Many business's in the area are concerned as well, the police can only do so much and only against the large crowds. Most white people and white business owners are more worried about the possibility of smaller groups "retaliation" against an innocent verdict.

Did you circle the wagons?

Honestly, how much of this is from instigators on both sides acting in mindless (define as similar to GZimmerman in the first place) ways, each escalating this to the brink?

I saw one up here once. If you act with decorum, dignity, and intelligence, you can work thorough almost anything.

 

[FLDomer]

alright, I just said I was sorry for directing that your way and now this. I never suggested I was an expert on the goings on of Central Florida, in fact I said nothing of the sort. I said that just because people are tense does not mean there is going to be a riot.I'm not even saying there won't be riots. I'm saying that jumping to that conclusion is a bit of a stretch, especially since it didn't happen even in the month and a half before zimmerman was arrested. But you living down there makes you the expert on what every black person in Central Florida is thinking. I'm not sure how you can't see how that might be offensive to people.

When the fack did I make that assumption?? Idiocy comes in all colors imo, so I never once singled out a race and claimed to know what an individual is thinking, no matter their race. So if I some how offended someone, relax and read objectively and stop assuming. Hell, do you even know what race I am?? I am married to a woman of mixed race, I have fathered two children with her and they are of mixed race, I dont give two shiits about race.

 

[ShawneeIrish]

This is why I love internet debates: the vast potential for arguing past each other.

Me: A corvette is a lot like a camaro.

Anonymous Commenter: They're not the same at all.

A corvette is a lot like a camaro. The are both American made sports cars made by Chevrolet.

I guess I should not have said "at all" both were criminal cases. Both had racial undertones. However, the actions of the prosecutors are not vaguely similar. The reasonableness of the prosecutions are not vaguely similar. Not vaguely similar that in the Duke case there was no one raped and here Trayvon Martin was definitely killed, only question was whther it was legally justified. So perhaps I should not say "at all" because you can find a similarity in almost anything. My point however is correct that the cases are not similar and comparing them is inaccurate. Also saying they are not at all alike was much closer to the truth than the posters who said it was a spot on comparison or exactly the same.

 

[FLDomer]

Show of hands. How many see this as an accurate size differential between Zimmerman and Martin? Then you are silly. Martin was 5'11", 158 lbs at autopsy. Zimmerman weighs over 230Lbs. But who knows where his rapidly changing weight was at trial.

This is one indicative piece of the goofiness on this thread. It is the defenses job to lie for his client, which includes making the victim look guilty as hell.

GZ put on 120lbs since the shooting and I believe is 5'7.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Show of hands. How many see this as an accurate size differential between Zimmerman and Martin? Then you are silly. Martin was 5'11", 158 lbs at autopsy. Zimmerman weighs over 230Lbs. But who knows where his rapidly changing weight was at trial.

This is one indicative piece of the goofiness on this thread. It is the defenses job to lie for his client, which includes making the victim look guilty as hell.

I know you're probably not going to believe me, but Martin was 5'11'' and Zimmerman is 5'8''.

EDIT: FLDomer may be right, in that the police report put Zimmerman at 5'7''. Could be with his shoes off at the station or something. So given that 5'11'' is the autopsy length, 5'11'' to 5'7'' might be a better comparison.

 

[GoIrish41]

When the fack did I make that assumption?? Idiocy comes in all colors imo, so I never once singled out a race and claimed to know what an individual is thinking, no matter their race. So if I some are offended, relax and read objectively and stop assuming. Hell, do you even know what race I am?? I am married to a woman of mixed race, I have fathered two children with her and they are of mixed race, I could give two shiits about race.

Oh, I'm the one not reading objectively. ... you are the one who said I'm selling myself as an expert on Central Florida and what is going on down there, which I never even hinted at. I don't care what race you are because race doesn't matter to me at all. All this talk about the coming riots is offensive ... especially to blacks, who those comments are CLEARLY aimed at. Who should we assume is going to riot when the **** hits the fan? The Polish?

 

[NDWorld247]

Or maybe he didn't confront Zimmerman at all and that is all a fabrication by Zimmerman so he can claim self defense. The whole imparing his judgement seems a bit speculative, too. Zimmerman was watching the kid for a while in the neighborhood and never suggested he was smoking.

So you don't think smoking a blunt will impair your judgment? Zimmerman did suggest Trayvon appeared to be on drugs so it's more likely Trayvon smoked the blunt on his walk back from the store, not at the clubhouse as Zimmerman kept a watchful eye on him.

And the prosecution's star witness testified that Trayvon initiated conversation with Zimmerman ("Why are you following me for?"). You could argue they confronted each other, but Trayvon initiated conversation and Zimmerman never would have caught up to him if Martin just walked home. In my mind, Martin confronted Zimmerman by turning around.

 

[ACamp1900]

It is important to note that Zimmerman just hit puberty and thus grew four inches and put on 300 lbs since the shooting and that Martin was 7'5" and stunned Zimmerman with a lightning bolt from Rev. Jackson's *** just before he got on top of him...

 

[Bogtrotter07]

PS. This is what I am referring to. This Minister has a clear perspective on things. I was there several times.

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[GoIrish41]

So you don't think smoking a blunt will impair your judgment? Zimmerman did suggest Trayvon appeared to be on drugs so it's more likely Trayvon smoked the blunt on his walk back from the store, not at the clubhouse as Zimmerman kept a watchful eye on him.

And the prosecution's star witness testified that Trayvon initiated conversation with Zimmerman ("Why are you following me for?"). You could argue they confronted each other, but Trayvon initiated conversation and Zimmerman never would have caught up to him if Martin just walked home. In my mind, Martin confronted Zimmerman by turning around.

Does weed impair your judgement? Sure it does. It makes people mellow, not aggressive. Did Zimmerman ever explain what a person he's never seen before looks like from a distance in the dark when he's on drugs? What does that statement even mean, he looks like he's on drugs?

I could argue ANYTHING, but the only account we have to go on is Zimmerman's. His account is riddled with inconsistencies and statements that are not believable, so I'm not going to take him at his word about anything. Zimmerman would never have caught up to Martin if he didn't follow him either. So, Zimmerman, an armed adult is allowed to follow a kid through the neighborhood and people argue "he didn't do anything illegal", but Martin turns around and he is all the sudden the agressor? That doesn't seem right.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The Seminole County sheriff and Sanford police chief talking out of both sides of their mouths in their press conference.

Loose translation...." there are no tensions in Seminole County but we are prepared for anything that may happen..."