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Another Sexual Asault Allegation

Another Sexual Asault Allegation

Former student files lawsuit against Notre Dame // The Observer

Shut down an investigation to facilitate a transfer? Wtf.

 

[wizards8507]

Doe’s father received a message from University associate vice president for student services Bill Stackman saying: "Notre Dame is not obligated to obtain consent from either Jane or her father prior to providing her name to her rapist. We acknowledge we have received your written and verbal notice forbidding it, however, Notre Dame will proceed today to notify Mr. Roe of the complaint, including its source."

If that's an ACTUAL quote from Stackman, then holy shit. But this reads like fake news.

 

[ND NYC]

Roe...Doe...im thoroughly confused here.

 

[ResLife Hero]

Not going to speculate on who it is, but this really limits the pool:

Doe agreed to close the case and Roe transferred to a Power Five football school with a clean record, where he is expected to play this fall, the suit said.

 

[PANDFAN]

check general team info thread...brought this up there yesterday

 

[wizards8507]

Why did Roe have a dorm room on ND's campus if he was a Holy Cross student? Is that really a thing?

 

[IrishLax]

This is already being discussed in another thread. Will merge.

 

[dublinirish]

Why did Roe have a dorm room on ND's campus if he was a Holy Cross student? Is that really a thing?

the woman was at HC, Roe is the ND football player.

 

[IrishLax]

Former student files lawsuit against Notre Dame // The Observer

Shut down an investigation to facilitate a transfer? Wtf.

What actually happened, I'm sure, is that he withdrew from the University and transferred before the investigation was complete. And at that point, the University has no jurisdiction or power on him anymore and will summarily close the investigation with whatever findings they have to date.

If that's an ACTUAL quote from Stackman, then holy shit. But this reads like fake news.

You don't think someone being accused of sexual assault has a right to know who is accusing him and of what? How else would they be able to defend themselves?

Of course they don't need her consent to tell him that she filed an allegation.

Not going to speculate on who it is, but this really limits the pool:

I don't think that "P5 play this year" thing is accurate, which also makes me question the veracity of the remainder of the complaint. I'm 90% sure I know who she is talking about (based on timeline, and Alumni Hall link) and he did not transfer to a P5 school. But with all of the stuff that doesn't quite add up in the suit/article, I don't think it's appropriate to speculate at this time.

 

[wizards8507]

the woman was at HC, Roe is the ND football player.

So neither Roe nor Doe are students at ND. Got it.

 

[IrishLion]

You don't think someone being accused of sexual assault has a right to know who is accusing him and of what? How else would they be able to defend themselves?

Of course they don't need her consent to tell him that she filed an allegation.

You want to honor the victim and her privacy, but due process also means the party being accused needs the pertinent information of the accusation... Aka, "this person said you did this on this day. Were you there with that person at that time, doing that thing?"

If they don't ask those questions, there is literally no way to build a case on either side.

Where trouble usually happens in Title IX investigations is when the accuser doesn't feel that the school did enough to keep them safe from the other person... but again, in order for that to be the case, the party being accused needs to know why they are being limited in campus involvement, why their class schedule has been changed, etc. There's no way to do that without her complaint being made known.

 

[wizards8507]

You don't think someone being accused of sexual assault has a right to know who is accusing him and of what? How else would they be able to defend themselves?

Of course they don't need her consent to tell him that she filed an allegation.

It's not the notification I have a problem with, it's the language. First, there's a major conflation of "rape" and "sexual assault," which happens all of the time in these cases and it's gross. Second, the idea that there wouldn't be any qualifying term like "alleged" or "accused" is fairly alarming.

Regardless, there are a ton of red flags here.

In January of 2016, Doe agreed to help an intoxicated Notre Dame football player — referred to as “Jack Roe” — return to his dorm room in Alumni Hall, where she was sexually assaulted, according to the lawsuit.

Red Flag #1: How often does a drunk grown man get "helped" back to his dorm room by a female? It's just not a thing that happens.

At the time, Doe was enrolled at the Gateway Program at Holy Cross College, a program that facilitates the transfer process into Notre Dame for select students who were not admitted to the University as freshmen.

Red Flag #2: Student was not admitted to the University (motive).

Doe decided to deal with the incident in a private way by simply avoiding contact with Roe, the lawsuit stated.

Red Flag #3: File the complaint the next morning, period.

However, three months after the incident, a female Notre Dame student approached Doe to ask for her anonymous support of a second victim who was hesitant to report an alleged assault by the same football player.

Red Flag #4: What the actual fuck? Girl was assaulted. Second girl approaches her and tells her about a third girl who was also assaulted and wants the first girl to file a complaint. That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

According to the lawsuit, Doe completed the fall semester of 2016 at Notre Dame but withdrew from the University one month into the following semester due to deteriorating physical and mental health.

Mm hm.

 

[IrishLax]

It's not the notification I have a problem with, it's the language. First, there's a major conflation of "rape" and "sexual assault," which happens all of the time in these cases and it's gross. Second, the idea that there wouldn't be any qualifying term like "alleged" or "accused" is fairly alarming.

Regardless, there are a ton of red flags here.

Oh gotcha that makes sense.

 

[pkt77242]

It's not the notification I have a problem with, it's the language. First, there's a major conflation of "rape" and "sexual assault," which happens all of the time in these cases and it's gross. Second, the idea that there wouldn't be any qualifying term like "alleged" or "accused" is fairly alarming.

Regardless, there are a ton of red flags here.


Red Flag #1: How often does a drunk grown man get "helped" back to his dorm room by a female? It's just not a thing that happens.


Red Flag #2: Student was not admitted to the University (motive).


Red Flag #3: File the complaint the next morning, period.


Red Flag #4: What the actual fuck? Girl was assaulted. Second girl approaches her and tells her about a third girl who was also assaulted and wants the first girl to file a complaint. That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.


Mm hm.

Why the fuck would you use the term alleged or accused rapist when speaking to the victim?

Nothing says I believe you like saying "alleged". I would expect them to use the term when speaking to the alleged rapist but not the victim.

You really find it gross that sexual assault gets conflated with rape? Gross. I don't think that you mean that and if you do, well that says something about you.

 

[wizards8507]

Why the fuck would you use the term alleged or accused rapist when speaking to the victim?

Nothing says I believe you like saying "alleged". I would expect them to use the term when speaking to the alleged rapist but not the victim.

Because the job of an investigator is to presume innocence on behalf of the accused until an investigation is completed and the facts come to light. Your starting point is not "believe the alleged victim automatically."

You really find it gross that sexual assault gets conflated with rape? Gross. I don't think that you mean that and if you do, well that says something about you.

Maybe you're not familiar with the way that "sexual assault" is used on campus in 2017. Ever kiss a girl after she's had a beer? That's sexual assault these days, and I'm not talking about "liberal PC snowflakes" or any other hyperbolic nonsense. I'm talking about the actual, legal definitions of words and the reasons people get thrown out of school and labeled rapists. Sexual assault and rape are nowhere near the same thing.

 

[IrishLax]

You really find it gross that sexual assault gets conflated with rape? Gross. I don't think that you mean that and if you do, well that says something about you.

So you think lumping, say, an unwanted hug in with forcible rape is smart and a good idea? Just trying to understand your perspective here.

 

[dad4aa]

Maybe you're not familiar with the way that "sexual assault" is used on campus in 2017. Ever kiss a girl after she's had a beer? That's sexual assault these days, and I'm not talking about "liberal PC snowflakes" or any other hyperbolic nonsense. I'm talking about the actual, legal definitions of words and the reasons people get thrown out of school and labeled rapists. Sexual assault and rape are nowhere near the same thing.

Agree with this

 

[Domina Nostra]

Why the fuck would you use the term alleged or accused rapist when speaking to the victim?

Nothing says I believe you like saying "alleged". I would expect them to use the term when speaking to the alleged rapist but not the victim.

I wouldn't be shocked if I accused someone of something, and the police called them the "suspect" or the "alleged" thief. How do they know? And those labels have major repercussions. They should treat her with respect and compassion, but they owe the accused her/his rights as well.

You really find it gross that sexual assault gets conflated with rape? Gross. I don't think that you mean that and if you do, well that says something about you.

It's not even mildly complicated.

I wouldn't accuse some crazy hillbilly who beat his father with a baseball bat of murder, if he didn't kill him. Why? Because he's not an alleged murderer.

I wouldn't accuse some gross 19 year old Duerson who slept with a 16 year old from his high school of being a pedophile, although what he did was wrong and illegal. Why? Because he's not.

So why should I accuse some slimeball who sexually assaults a woman (which can be things like grabbing her breasts in a bar) with rape? He didn't rape her. It doesn't mean its not despicable. It means its not rape. Rape is much, much worse. Everyone, including the legal system, wholeheartedly agrees.

 

[pkt77242]

Because the job of an investigator is to presume innocence on behalf of the accused until an investigation is completed and the facts come to light. Your starting point is not "believe the alleged victim automatically."


Maybe you're not familiar with the way that "sexual assault" is used on campus in 2017. Ever kiss a girl after she's had a beer? That's sexual assault these days, and I'm not talking about "liberal PC snowflakes" or any other hyperbolic nonsense. I'm talking about the actual, legal definitions of words and the reasons people get thrown out of school and labeled rapists. Sexual assault and rape are nowhere near the same thing.

Que?

Where did I ever make the argument that the investigator should believe the victim automatically? That wasn't the argument that I was making at all.

My problem is that you are lumping all sexual assault in together. Some types of sexual assault are very serious even if they don't amount to rape. It is fine for you to feel that it is crazy to lump a drunken kiss in with sexual assault but don't demean all sexual assault to make that case.

 

[pkt77242]

So you think lumping, say, an unwanted hug in with forcible rape is smart and a good idea? Just trying to understand your perspective here.

Nope, I think that lumping an unwanted hug in with sexual assault is the problem. There are serious forms of sexual assault that don't meet the criteria for rape.

What we really need is a "word" for things such as an unwanted hug or a drunken kiss.

Typing on my phone so not sure how clear I am being.

 

[IrishLax]

My problem is that you are lumping all sexual assault in together. Some types of sexual assault are very serious even if they don't amount to rape. It is fine for you to feel that it is crazy to lump a drunken kiss in with sexual assault but don't demean all sexual assault to make that case.

That's actually the opposite of what he was getting at (I think).

Nope, I think that lumping an unwanted hig in with sexual assault is the problem. There are serious forms of sexual assault that don't meet the criteria for rape.

What we really need is a "word" for things such as an unwanted hug or a drunken kiss.

Typing on my phone so not sure how clear I am being.

OK that's not how your first post read. What Wiz was getting at is that it's important to be clear and precise with terminology, which is what it seems like you're saying now.

 

[GowerND11]

.

 

[wizards8507]

Nope, I think that lumping an unwanted hug in with sexual assault is the problem. There are serious forms of sexual assault that don't meet the criteria for rape.

What we really need is a "word" for things such as an unwanted hug or a drunken kiss.

I'm not the one doing the lumping. An unwanted kiss meets the legal definition of sexual assault and that type of thing is almost always what we're talking about in these she-said-he-said campus allegations.

 

[pkt77242]

I'm not the one doing the lumping. An unwanted kiss meets the legal definition of sexual assault and that type of thing is almost always what we're talking about in these she-said-he-said campus allegations.

Almost always? Got any data to back that up.

 

[pkt77242]

That's actually the opposite of what he was getting at (I think).



OK that's not how your first post read. What Wiz was getting at is that it's important to be clear and precise with terminology, which is what it seems like you're saying now.

My problem with wiz is summed up in his last post. He assumes that almost all sexual assault on campus is an unwanted kiss. I disagree with that. Now if he argued that most included drugs and/or alcohol by one or both parties then I might agree.

 

[wizards8507]

My problem with wiz is summed up in his last post. He assumes that almost all sexual assault on campus is an unwanted kiss. I disagree with that. Now if he argued that most included drugs and/or alcohol by one or both parties then I might agree.

Totally agree. I include "drunk sex" in the relatively-harmless-not-really-assault category along with unwanted kissing.

 

[snoopdog]

Totally agree. I include "drunk sex" in the relatively-harmless-not-really-assault category along with unwanted kissing.

I thought drunk sex is now rape....because a drunk female is unable to provide consent....which is much more than a college issue.

 

[arndtjc]

More trouble brewing in the admin?

More trouble brewing in the admin?

Deadspin has run this article tonight about an alleged rape from earlier (edit) last* year

http://deadspin.com/lawsuit-notre-dame-covered-up-a-football-players-alleg-1802775527/amp

The victim alleges ND swept things under the rug and erred on the side of the student athlete. This could get ugly if everything is true...



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[dad4aa]

Been discussed a lot already in the General Team info thread

 

[arndtjc]

Been discussed a lot already in the General Team info thread

Did not see anything about it, sorry guys


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