Game of Thrones

greyhammer90

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<blockquote class="reddit-card" data-card-created="1557720057"><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bnxky6/in_s1e1_jaime_lannister_pushes_bran_stark_out_of/?ref=share&ref_source=embed">In S1E1, Jaime Lannister pushes Bran Stark out of a window. This is subtle foreshadowing for S8E5, where eight seasons of Jaime's character development are similarly thrown out the window.</a> from <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk">r/freefolk</a></blockquote>
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At least we have the memes.
 

BeatSC

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BTW what is Sansa going to do? She might as well start marinating herself so she doesn’t turn into charcoal too quickly. What about Briane?
 

FightingIrishLover7

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I've been more positive about the season than most. This episode sucked. Mad Queen Dany just waayyyyyy too rushed. Nothing from the Golden Company. Tyrion sucked (as usual since season 6). The battles were boring. Guess this was a great episode though if you love SFX.

Clegane Bowl + Arya presumably running off to Gendry were the onyl good parts of this episode IMO.

Edit: Nvm about Arya just saw the preview.
What made you think she'd be riding off with Gendry? Lol.

And mad Dany, rushed? She's had her moral compass pointed at the throne since season 1...everything "good" she's done has been for political/military gain... And the past two seasons have certainllllllyyyyy been foreshadowing shit going down... Especially since Tower of Joy / Jon kneeling to her.

She can only break full mad, once... Ala burning Kings Landing... Should they have done that earlier? I mean, you kind of have to save the climax for the climax... Her burning the Red Keep, say, last season, would have had a very very different flow... Lol

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IrishLion

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What made you think she'd be riding off with Gendry? Lol.

And mad Dany, rushed? She's had her moral compass pointed at the throne since season 1...everything "good" she's done has been for political/military gain... And the past two seasons have certainllllllyyyyy been foreshadowing shit going down... Especially since Tower of Joy / Jon kneeling to her.

She can only break full mad, once... Ala burning Kings Landing... Should they have done that earlier? I mean, you kind of have to save the climax for the climax... Her burning the Red Keep, say, last season, would have had a very very different flow... Lol

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It was rushed in the sense that she hadn’t *actually* done anything that would foreshadow her potential to be The Mad Queen.

Greyhammer touched on it above... she had legit military/war-time reasons whenever she burned people. Otherwise, she was pretty calm and collected and generally let her advisors carry out rational decisions.

Her desperate “Plz don’t tell anyone that you’re the rightful heir” to Jon in the previous episode was a quick, crappy way of showing that she is mentally destabilizing.

There was no build-up beyond that, aside from the “my dragons are my children and they are dying” idea, which wasn’t driven home with much force, either.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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It was rushed in the sense that she hadn&#146;t *actually* done anything that would foreshadow her potential to be The Mad Queen.



Greyhammer touched on it above... she had legit military/war-time reasons whenever she burned people. Otherwise, she was pretty calm and collected and generally let her advisors carry out rational decisions.



Her desperate &#147;Plz don&#146;t tell anyone that you&#146;re the rightful heir&#148; to Jon in the previous episode was a quick, crappy way of showing that she is mentally destabilizing.



There was no build-up beyond that, aside from the &#147;my dragons are my children and they are dying&#148; idea, which wasn&#146;t driven home with much force, either.
Last episode
Missandei died
Betrayel (Jon/Sansa/Tyrion/Varys)

Two episodes ago
Jorah dies.

You realize she can't break mad, until the mad causing shit happens, right?

Again, are you suggesting they put all these events last seasons, just so you can have more hours of her as "actively" mad queen?

She's been this way from day 1 too. So, again. I'm not following.

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GATTACA!

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Last episode
Missandei died
Betrayel (Jon/Sansa/Tyrion/Varys)

Two episodes ago
Jorah dies.

You realize she can't break mad, until the mad causing shit happens, right?

Again, are you suggesting they put all these events last seasons, just so you can have more hours of her as "actively" mad queen?

She's been this way from day 1 too. So, again. I'm not following.

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Why would any of this make her want to burn the whole city and millions of innocent people that have fuck all to do with any of that?? It makes no fucking sense.

Maybe if Cersei had said fuck it I'm going down with this ship and chose not to ring the bells it would kind of make sense why an irrational Dany would go overboard and destroy the city, but to destroy it after she's been handed everything she wants makes no sense.

It's stupid forced writing because D&D were either handed mad Dany as a plot point from George and are just too incompetent to write a proper build up to that point, or they are going for shock value.
 

GATTACA!

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Two episodes ago Dany was sacrificing half her forces to try and save humanity.

Now she's mad because of reasons? And decides to commit genocide?

I can not believe how badly this has gone downhill. What a complete shit show. Honestly if you're enjoying this I have to question your mental capacity.
 

Irish YJ

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Just dropping in from Vanderbilt Beach.... Ritz C on the left, La Playa on the right.... here for two weeks celebrating my mom's cancer free diagnosis... (it's not really free and easy).... last Christmas was the first year we haven't been here in a while... it's a long tradition ever since we actually could afford such things...

The last two days have been nothing but stress getting her and my aunt flown in plus other buds and fam... I know... first world problems... the first thing my 91 year old aunt says... remember when we used to cook outside and have an outhouse.... (that's nicely putting it)... and she's a devout holy roller 7 day a week church goer... no, not Catholic...

Anyway.. put the show on pause for at least 5 times... rewatching it now.

All you whiners.... goooooood lord.

Enjoy what it is. Enjoy life for what it is.
 

Bishop2b5

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I don't agree with how this went down but I think how it went down was executed well.

No one killing Cersei is BS though.

The way Cersei & Jaime went out was lame. We all wanted to see Cersei go out more violently and with the smirk wiped off her face literally and figuratively. Overall though, I thought this was a good episode. The destruction of King's Landing and what happens to the people on the street during the destruction or sacking of a city was brutal.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Also I'm glad the showrunners were able to download the latest patch into Total War: Warhammer because the ballistas got nerfed something fierce between Episode 5 and Episode 6.

Also Jaime's final episode he talks about how he never really cared about the innocent, only Cersei. Fuck me with a rake D&D never even understood the character.

This was the worst part for me. Jamie's redemption arc and a crowd-pleasing death for Cersei were both abandoned for 'star-crossed lovers meet their fate in loving embrace'. One of the worst parts of any season.
 

phork

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I preface this by saying that I do not defend D&D for any of their bullshit. However I think some points are being glossed over.

Mad King: My children had been recently killed, I was hearing voices, and I was betrayed by my hand while I was about to lose the Iron Throne. Everyone who I thought was loyal to me was marching on my keep when I finally mentally snapped.

Dany: I had just won the seven kingdoms and had fought the final battle without a major casualty toward anyone I was close to. Everything went exactly as planned and the city fell peacefully without any major structural damage beyond the outer wall.. But I hate bells.

Her decension into madness started a long time ago and was built over time. Ultimately what set it off was the execution of her best friend. He goal was always the Iron Throne, at any cost. Making Jon bend the knee to help against the NK is proof of this. She always had a hint of cruelty but seeing all her closest people die kind of makes one lose their shit.

I will always be hung up on Bran's storyline. He told Jon R + L = J (something Sam could have accomplished by just reading a book) and was bait (still why? wtf?) for the NK. Pointless build up for next to nothing.

The only thing in the book was the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage, I do not believe the birth of Jon was recorded.

The way Cersei & Jaime went out was lame. We all wanted to see Cersei go out more violently and with the smirk wiped off her face literally and figuratively. Overall though, I thought this was a good episode. The destruction of King's Landing and what happens to the people on the street during the destruction or sacking of a city was brutal.

I agree about the violently and Jaimes hand hung at the side of her face for an eternity while I was screaming in my head "Heres where he chokes a bitch" but then nothing... Jaime was as good as dead due to his mortal wounds so whats the thought process that Cersei would have made it on her own?
I loved how Cersei crumbled into the realization of her imminent demise though. By the time she got to the stairs and walked into the map room she looked frail and afraid for the first time in a long time.

I thought the episode was the best this season (I know not saying much). My complaints were 1. Jaime not doing what he was supposed to do. 2. All the elephants in the world seemingly couldnt save the Golden Pylons...errr...Company. 3. Aryas countless death/not death scenes.
 
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Veritate Duce Progredi

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Dany's rapid change has been awful. The showrunners needed to start this a season ago to make it feel organic.

Cleganebowl gets two thumbs down. Such a poor use of CGI and poor set-up.

Cersei's death - terrible decision.

Jamie's death - even worse than Cersei's.

The centrality of Arya's character is lost on me. I can buy into her badassery but why is she given so much screen time stumbling around? I guess it was a good view of the carnage? She better have a significant role next week.

Goodbye Varys, good spider.

Tyrions role is the only remaining interesting plot point. He gave his friend over for execution and made yet another mistake. For being one of the smartest men in the 7, he hasn't made a single good decision since assuming power. At least not that I can remember. This is a gaping hole in character development.

I'm finally with everyone else. This season has been awful and I look forward to the end. I'll wipe my hands and get on with my life.

WB can adapt content but they and the screenwriters involved should never be put in charge of generating content for valuable IP. They've completely botched it.
 

BleedBlueGold

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I'm over it. They're clearly just checking boxes at this point. Cherry picking which story lines they'll see through and which ones they'll let crumble. It's all so lazy. It's reached a point for me that it's not even entertaining anymore. Thankfully, there is only one more episode left.

I had a similar experience with Walking Dead. Thought it was awesome in the beginning, then somewhere along the road it lost it's way. It stopped being entertaining to me and felt more like, "well, I've invested so much time into this, I should probably keep watching...?" That's when I quit watching.
 

gkIrish

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Mostly speculation because the leaker I’ve been following (Friki Doctor) was wrong about this episode.

What I remember reading from him was very close to what happened....Varys executed, Tyrion helps Jamie escape, Jamie kills Euron but is mortally wounded, Dany burns down city. I thought all of that was in there. The big thing that hasn't happened yet could be the majority of next episode.

I definitely read all that stuff before last night.
 

beryirish

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If Jon would have just banged ONE more time with his aunt then all the carnage would have been avoided.


You knew though that the Mad Queen was coming out this episode just with the "Previously on GoT" buildup showing Dany's reaction to all the bad things happening to her.

I can see Dany though, not so much going mad, but more as F* you Cersei. You killed my dragon, you killed Missandei, you won't give up the throne. Then once I clearly win the battle 1 - you are reluctant to ring the bell (i don't think it was her choice though) 2 - after all of this you think you can just throw you hands up and have nothing bad happen to you. I'm gonna burn this place down.
 
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IrishLion

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Cersei's death - terrible decision.

It was terrible in that it wasn't satisfying, after seeing all of the horrible shit she's orchestrated over 8 seasons, but it was kind of the perfect way for her to go out... frightened and shocked in a way she had never felt before, alone with just a husk of her former lover present, with the world she built crumbling around her, everything she placed her misguided faith in literally caving in... but even in the end, she wouldn't give the world the satisfaction of seeing her die in the horrible way that she deserved. Defiant and petty to the end.

Jamie's death - even worse than Cersei's.

Yeah, I'm with Phork... he should've choked her out as they waited for the Red Keep to collapse on top of them. I thought they were going to parlay it into "mercy killing" where Jaime still retains a bit of his dignity in a twisted and warped way.

why is she given so much screen time stumbling around? I guess it was a good view of the carnage?

You answered your own question. I know a lot of people don't like how central they've made her, but it at least made sense for her to find herself in the middle of the action. It makes sense that she'd be hunting down the final name on her list, but it makes even more sense that she'd be following Clegane. Either way, she was going to find herself in the middle of the Red Keep, and thus be the best set of "eyes" to show us the carnage of the Mad Queen.

Goodbye Varys, good spider.

I've been enjoying this season for the spectacle. Character development got dumped for the sake or writing big set pieces, and decision are being made that defy logic, but I can look past that stuff.

I hit my "Nope. No way." moment last night when Varys, the Spider, the Master of Whispers and Lord of the Little Birds, was OPENLY COMMITTING TREASON AND THEN STUCK AROUND FOR HIS PUNISHMENT. Dude is the smartest guy in Westeros, probably, and a master of deceit and disguise.

After he made his open play to Jon, and Jon refused, he should have high-tailed it out of there and disappeared until the dust settled.

Instead, he tells Tyrion that he's going to commit treason against the lady that promised to burn him if he committed treason, and then just... waits in his chamber and continues writing his treasonous letters until they come for him?

It made zero sense. It could've been solved by a simple "I'm tired, Lord Tyrion. I will cast my lot and let the pieces fall. No more whispers and birds." But they didn't even give him that. They just gave him a throwaway line about "great reward requires great risk," but that still doesn't mean he needed to throw his life away while risking it to get the word out about Jon's claim.

Tyrions role is the only remaining interesting plot point. He gave his friend over for execution and made yet another mistake. For being one of the smartest men in the 7, he hasn't made a single good decision since assuming power. At least not that I can remember. This is a gaping hole in character development.

Dinklage is famously pissed about how dumb his character became. He is the master of thinly-veiled disgust whenever he's interviewed about the way things have played out for Tyrion, the smartest man who became the dumbest man.
 

beryirish

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The thing that annoyed me the most was last episode Dany pulls up with Drogon from taking on the Irone Fleet. Then this episode Drogon takes it out within 30 seconds effortlessly. To me, that seemed sloppy.
 

gkIrish

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To play Devil's advocate, they did play up the "fear" thing and you can argue she burned KL so that everyone who survives will fear her and never question her rule.
 

beryirish

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Has anyone heard this theory (came from my sister).

She said she thinks the time that Drogon flew off for a season and was gone, he was actually laying eggs. That time in Valyeria when Jorah and Tyrion saw him flying over in their boat before Jorah got touched by the stone man. So she thought that three more dragons will show up.

I called BS but wanted to see if anyone else heard something about this.
 

IrishLion

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To play Devil's advocate, they did play up the "fear" thing and you can argue she burned KL so that everyone who survives will fear her and never question her rule.

I was thinking about that this morning. She knows that everyone adores Jon, and now she knows that Jon isn't smitten by her anymore... the only thing she has that Jon doesn't is a flying death machine (RIP Rhaegal).

Use the flying death machine to assert yourself and ensure that people fall in line, not realizing that it's made you mad and has resulted in your going against everything that you previously stood for.

She mentioned that she was willing to sacrifice the innocent lives in King's Landing so that future generations could prosper... but the bells rang, and she didn't have to sacrifice them, but she did anyway. She's mad, and she's trying to flex to keep her grip on the power she has.
 

greyhammer90

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Her decension into madness started a long time ago and was built over time. Ultimately what set it off was the execution of her best friend. He goal was always the Iron Throne, at any cost. Making Jon bend the knee to help against the NK is proof of this. She always had a hint of cruelty but seeing all her closest people die kind of makes one lose their shit.

It really wasn't though. I agree that she has always had a crazy zealot quality to her. That's why I was always a Mad Queen theorist. But her tragic flaw was that she was obsessed with being loved and ruling over a "just" empire while not understanding that her own sense of morality was warped and that she was actually the same as everyone else, a person who ruled her own subjects through fear. It makes no sense for her character to destroy King's Landing and a ton of innocent citizens after being given it just because her handmaiden was killed a week ago.

One potentially correct route for her character to go would be to show her taking the Iron Throne and being overly punitive to the surrounding lords (and by virtue of their social structure, her normal subjects) through executions and limitations of liberties. She's the character that tries to end tyranny by becoming a tyrant because "I can do it better, no really." That's been the hinted at issue with her from the beginning. (And before anyone says "Lol you want them to spend a season on internal politics after she has the throne?" 1. No, but I didn't write us into this mess. 2. That was what all the good seasons were about.)

As I said above, even King Aerys only gave the order to burn everyone after he was about to lose the throne because he was well and truly betrayed by his own bannermen who were within the city walls. He wanted to get revenge on his betrayers, knew he wasn't going to get the opportunity because he had lost the war, and didn't care about the lives of his citizens. The issue is not that Dany was mad per se, it's that the show writers clearly thought that the only way to have Dany be mad was to burn down the city, even though it made no sense for her character to do so in that moment. It's as though the writers said, "Well she's mad now, and mad people burn down the city in this universe."

If the goal was to show that she was already crazy going into this battle, they failed in showing that because she seemed like normal Dany, whose goal has always been to win the throne under the self-righteous delusion of winning it "for the people." If the goal was to show a cause-effect arrow from the point where something tragic happened (be it her handmaiden dying or her dragons or whatever) to her going crazy, they failed because she appeared to act normal long after through the planning, and kept the citizen killing to a minimum until after the city had fallen.

It's just a failure of visual storytelling at this point. We are told everything and see nothing. Dany acts the same as ever and suddenly everyone talks about how she's going mad. Jon does nothing but make stupid decisions for the last four seasons but we're told by Varys that Jon is beloved and would rule wisely because the northernmen toasted him louder. Keep in mind, this is the same Varys who gave up on Ned because he was too stubbornly honorable to be effective. It aint good.
 
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beryirish

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I was thinking about that this morning. She knows that everyone adores Jon, and now she knows that Jon isn't smitten by her anymore... the only thing she has that Jon doesn't is a flying death machine (RIP Rhaegal).

Use the flying death machine to assert yourself and ensure that people fall in line, not realizing that it's made you mad and has resulted in your going against everything that you previously stood for.

She mentioned that she was willing to sacrifice the innocent lives in King's Landing so that future generations could prosper... but the bells rang, and she didn't have to sacrifice them, but she did anyway. She's mad, and she's trying to flex to keep her grip on the power she has.

But she still needs to instill that fear. When the bells rang people thought phew we are good now. But burning them all let's them know that if you even think about crossing her she will not only kill you but wipe out your seed. My thoughts.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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The thing that annoyed me the most was last episode Dany pulls up with Drogon from taking on the Irone Fleet. Then this episode Drogon takes it out within 30 seconds effortlessly. To me, that seemed sloppy.

More than that, they showed the dragons above the clouds fighting during the long night. She couldn't just disappear above the clouds and come charging straight down on top of the fleet?

They could've at least made it a foggy morning, with the dragon cutting through the fog. She watches one of her dragon's sniped twice by the iron fleet and she flies away.

She comes back and takes on the iron fleet, king's landing and an entire city and has no issue demolishing the whole damn thing. It wasn't even contested. They got off 1-2 shots before she killed at least 10k.
 

IrishLion

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But she still needs to instill that fear. When the bells rang people thought phew we are good now. But burning them all let's them know that if you even think about crossing her she will not only kill you but wipe out your seed. My thoughts.

Yeah I agree lol. I was just illustrating why it could be both that she's lost her mind AND that she's using her only remaining advantage over Jon, which is fear (of the flying death machine).
 

Rogue219

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It's been a good run. Not the first show whose writing went to trash in the last season, and it won't be the last show either.

All that good character development blown to hell in about forty five minutes worth of war crimes.

I knew my guy Varys was dead after Episode 4. No one ever questions dear leader and lives to tell the tale.
 

beryirish

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Does everything for sure think Cersei and/or Jamie are still alive? You know similar to The Long Night, just because they seem to be on their way to being dead once the camera cuts away it doesn't mean they arrrreeeeee.
 

greyhammer90

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But she still needs to instill that fear. When the bells rang people thought phew we are good now. But burning them all let's them know that if you even think about crossing her she will not only kill you but wipe out your seed. My thoughts.

You know, after you win a war and have the people subjugated to your rule it's pretty easy to instill fear without destroying your own nation's capital city and your ancestral keep. You can burn Cersei, give Casterly Rock to a different family, and crack down on the citizenry using your unsullied guard. This also has the added bonus effect of not turning the entirety of your Westeros allies against you.
 
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FightingIrishLover7

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This was the worst part for me. Jamie's redemption arc and a crowd-pleasing death for Cersei were both abandoned for 'star-crossed lovers meet their fate in loving embrace'. One of the worst parts of any season.
That's not at all what they did.

It symbolized the blindness of love and its addictive qualities that cause ultimate dispair... Ie, Shakespearean.

Like it or not, this is none of your shows. So enjoy it for what it is and deal with it.

You're all acting like the #notmyoresident liberal idiots... Exact same fallacy.

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beryirish

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You know, after you win a war and have the people subjugated to your rule it's pretty easy to instill fear without destroying your own nation's capital city and your ancestral keep. You can burn Cersei, give Casterly Rock to a different family, and crack down on the citizenry using your unsullied guard.

Part of her reasoning could be to show Jon and the north men (Sansa). Look what I did to people who surrendered to me. Don't even think about it. Oh the North won't be a part of the 7 kingdoms??!!! Ok we'll see about that. Have the north men who came down to fight for me tell you what I did to these people. You will bend the knee and answer to me or WF will see the same fate as KL. She saw first hand how the men loved Jon and would choose him over her in a heartbeat if the word got out whether he ended up wanting it or not.
 
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greyhammer90

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That's not at all what they did.

It symbolized the blindness of love and its addictive qualities that cause ultimate dispair... Ie, Shakespearean.

Like it or not, this is none of your shows. So enjoy it for what it is and deal with it.

You're all acting like the #notmyoresident liberal idiots... Exact same fallacy.

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"Criticism is bad because you couldn't do better."

And we're the one's spouting fallacies lol.
 
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