Game of Thrones

[zelezo vlk]

This is where I'm at.

She's a finely-tuned murder machine, both mentally and physically. She know what she doin'.

Except that the writers decided to make Arya hate Sansa again for wanting to be Lady of Winterfell. That seemed pretty clear to me last night, so this business with Littlefinger is meant to be a trap for Arya to lose even more trust in Sansa, leading to her leaving Winterfell.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Will they be knocking on death's door north of the wall when Jon's dragon comes flying in? The direwolves always seemed to show up when their master was nearly dead. It'd be bad ass to see Jon's dragon carry the remaining crew out of the ice while incinerating a chunk of wights.

If that happens, it would have to be Drogon, right? That's the only dragon we've seen Jon connect with thus far. Dany could show up with him to save the day, or he could sense Jon is in danger and come alone to rescue him. Might be a nice way to reveal Jon's lineage.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Except that the writers decided to make Arya hate Sansa again for wanting to be Lady of Winterfell. That seemed pretty clear to me last night, so this business with Littlefinger is meant to be a trap for Arya to lose even more trust in Sansa, leading to her leaving Winterfell.

I'm on: The writers want to push this sister distrust, and they're going to sacrifice Arya's sharpness, just to make drama...I hope I'm wrong, but I've got a bad feeling they're going for something cheap here.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I'm on: The writers want to push this sister distrust, and they're going to sacrifice Arya's sharpness, just to make drama...I hope I'm wrong, but I've got a bad feeling they're going for something cheap here.

It's exactly what I see happening on screen. I don't trust the writers

 

[IrishLion]

I'm on: The writers want to push this sister distrust, and they're going to sacrifice Arya's sharpness, just to make drama...I hope I'm wrong, but I've got a bad feeling they're going for something cheap here.

It's exactly what I see happening on screen. I don't trust the writers

I think it's possible for Arya to be both (1) gun-shy about Sansa's power trip and (2) leading Littlefinger on, despite LF thinking he's ahead of the game. They don't HAVE to sacrifice her sharpness to show a realistic concern that she has over Sansa's own potential scheming behind Jon's back.

Arya is struggling with "No One vs Stark," so she has reservations about her older sister, who always did her dirty, basking in the glow of power vacated by her most favorite brother.

But at the same time, she is a wise old sage, now, and so she might see that Sansa's impending hunger for power is derived from LF's influence. And now Arya is going to solve the problem herself.

 

[wizards8507]

This is where I'm at.

She's a finely-tuned murder machine, both mentally and physically. She know what she doin'.

I think that's what SHOULD be the case, but I thing BatFinger is winning the battle of wits as presented on screen.

 

[IrishLion]

I think that's what SHOULD be the case, but I thing BatFinger is winning the battle of wits as presented on screen.

There's the rub. They can't show that Arya is actually ahead of LF if they want to have an "aha!" moment of some sort, which is what I'm betting on.

Just when you think LF has turned the Stark girls against each other, one of them will show to have been ahead of him the whole time.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I think it's possible for Arya to be both (1) gun-shy about Sansa's power trip and (2) leading Littlefinger on, despite LF thinking he's ahead of the game. They don't HAVE to sacrifice her sharpness to show a realistic concern that she has over Sansa's own potential scheming behind Jon's back.

Arya is struggling with "No One vs Stark," so she has reservations about her older sister, who always did her dirty, basking in the glow of power vacated by her most favorite brother.

But at the same time, she is a wise old sage, now, and so she might see that Sansa's impending hunger for power is derived from LF's influence. And now Arya is going to solve the problem herself.

Yes it's possible. I don't think that's what the writers are showing though.

 

[IrishLion]

A girl has many doubters (due to instances of poor writing in the past, and thus a general mistrust of what we see).

 

[wizards8507]

Those scenes at the end where the party assembles in Eastwatch's dungeon and then stands together as the door opens could have been the backstory to the best D&D campaign ever.

This. We're deep into fan servicey wish fulfilment at this point and I'm jumping in with both feet. The Young Bull, the White Wolf, the Giantsbane, the red wizard, the Hound, the lightning lord, and Jorah the Andal of House Friendzone go north of the wall? Um... yes please.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I think it's possible for Arya to be both (1) gun-shy about Sansa's power trip and (2) leading Littlefinger on, despite LF thinking he's ahead of the game. They don't HAVE to sacrifice her sharpness to show a realistic concern that she has over Sansa's own potential scheming behind Jon's back.

Arya is struggling with "No One vs Stark," so she has reservations about her older sister, who always did her dirty, basking in the glow of power vacated by her most favorite brother.

But at the same time, she is a wise old sage, now, and so she might see that Sansa's impending hunger for power is derived from LF's influence. And now Arya is going to solve the problem herself.

I agree with all of this. I agree, the writers could be presenting it this way, causing the audience to think "oh no, arya!" only to switch to grand reveal where Arya WAS in fact ahead of LF and it climax's with a dagger to his throat.

But, I'm worried.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This. We're deep into fan servicey wish fulfilment at this point and I'm jumping in with both feet. The Young Bull, the White Wolf, the Giantsbane, the red wizard, the Hound, the lightning lord, and Jorah the Andal of House Friendzone go north of the wall? Um... yes please.

Too many tanks, only one healer, and no ranged DPS. 2/10, will die to the first bad pull.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I think Jorah dies next week and that's what propels Dany to focus on the war up north and put her mission with Cersei on hold.

 

[IrishLax]

And now for an admittedly really dumb theory:

(1) The Hound completes his story arch by dying for something he believes in while on the mission.
(2) The Hound becomes a wight as a result.
(3) The Hound is the wight they use in the meeting with Dany and Cersei.
(4) The Hound breaks free of his restraints and is met by Cersei's bodyguard, The Mountain.
(5) Undead Clegane Bowl (also thematically Ice (wight Hound) versus Fire (Gold covered Mountain who used fire to torture his brother)
(6) ????????????
(7) Hype

This theory is hot fire.

 

[wizards8507]

Too many tanks, only one healer, and no ranged DPS. 2/10, will die to the first bad pull.

It could depend on the mana bonus Thoros gets north of the wall. Plus the fire damage multiplier on ice-based foes.

 

[Irishnuke]

I've never read any of the books but when watching the show I feel like I know what's going on. Then I open this thread and see the comments by people who have read the books and get confused AF.

 

[IrishLax]

I agree with all of this. I agree, the writers could be presenting it this way, causing the audience to think "oh no, arya!" only to switch to grand reveal where Arya WAS in fact ahead of LF and it climax's with a dagger to his throat.

But, I'm worried.

I'm guessing Arya face-changes to Royce (or Sansa?) and Littlefinger talks all smug about how smart he is and then Arya is like "lol j/k" and knifes him.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

I'm guessing Arya face-changes to Royce (or Sansa?) and Littlefinger talks all smug about how smart he is and then Arya is like "lol j/k" and knifes him.

She can't just "change faces" she has to take them...SO, I don't see her killing Sansa...that would be some crazy ass shit though.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I've never read any of the books but when watching the show I feel like I know what's going on. Then I open this thread and see the comments by people who have read the books and get confused AF.

Lol. Same here.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

• First thing I think we have to realize is that this is no longer GRRM writing the story. This is now D&Ds story and so far they do not appear to have the same thirst for innocent blood that GRRM does. Because of this I think that anyone who does not need to die to advance the plot or cover a plot hole is going to be safe. To me this means almost everyone ranging north is safe, except maybe Thoros because him being able to just bring back people is too convienent and lessens the impact any deaths have. Plus it would officially mean there are no more red priest in westeros, which would explain why Mel would need to come back at some point.
• I think the show is trying to show that the Starks are stronger together and that is where the line from the previews about "the lone wolf dies while the pack survives" is going to come in. Any Arya, Sansa, or Bran cannot kill LF by themselves, but they will come together to kill him. I think that the scene where Yohn Royce said the Vale supports Sansa will be important because we know he doesn't love LF and if they can show LF was causing problems and kill him Yohn Royce will take charge of the Vale and still support the Starks.
• I don't think Beric is holding Lightbringer or Dawn, though I do think Dawn may be Lightbringer. In season one Jamie mentioned to Ned's head of security guy (don't remember his name) how Beric charged into battle with a flaming sword, so coating it in blood or not, we know he does this often so I don't think him lighting his sword is any more important than showing that R'Hllor ain't fucking around.
• I've been thinking about this and maybe someone who knows the books better can answer, but if we disregard the whole women don't rule thing, who actually has a better claim of the throne between Dany and Jon? If we go back to Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar and his wife and children were killed before the mad king, so the next person in line once the mad king died should have been Viserys. So now, after Rhaegar is dead but the mad king is still alive, Jon is born but that doesn't matter because Viserys is already the prince and rightful king once the mad king is killed. So when he dies, shouldn't Dany actually be the rightful ruler and not Jon even though he is older?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I've been thinking about this and maybe someone who knows the books better can answer, but if we disregard the whole women don't rule thing, who actually has a better claim of the throne between Dany and Jon? If we go back to Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar and his wife and children were killed before the mad king, so the next person in line once the mad king died should have been Viserys. So now, after Rhaegar is dead but the mad king is still alive, Jon is born but that doesn't matter because Viserys is already the prince and rightful king once the mad king is killed. So when he dies, shouldn't Dany actually be the rightful ruler and not Jon even though he is older?

Succession in Westeros seems to be Agnatic, which makes sense since it's largely based on medieval England. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark prior to fathering Jon, so Jon's claim is superior to Dany's. Dany's claim is dependent on Rhaegar's entire line having been wiped out, which isn't the case.

 

[wizards8507]

I've been thinking about this and maybe someone who knows the books better can answer, but if we disregard the whole women don't rule thing, who actually has a better claim of the throne between Dany and Jon? If we go back to Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar and his wife and children were killed before the mad king, so the next person in line once the mad king died should have been Viserys. So now, after Rhaegar is dead but the mad king is still alive, Jon is born but that doesn't matter because Viserys is already the prince and rightful king once the mad king is killed. So when he dies, shouldn't Dany actually be the rightful ruler and not Jon even though he is older?

Jon's claim is superior. The eldest son's heir (Rhaegar's son, Jon) takes precedence over the second son (Viserys). In real-life England, QE2's heir is Charles. If Charles dies before Elizabeth, Charles' son William is next in line, not Charles' brother Andrew.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/16mqp1/spoilers_all_complete_guide_to_westerosi/

Jon is tha King o' tha North, East, South... hell every-damn-where.

Phuck that. I don't care who his dad was, Jon wouldn't be caught dead counting coppers in King's Landing like some Southron dandy.

 

[greyhammer90]

I'm guessing Arya face-changes to Royce (or Sansa?) and Littlefinger talks all smug about how smart he is and then Arya is like "lol j/k" and knifes him.

It's pretty disappointing because no matter which direction this goes, someone is much dumber than I thought. If Arya actually gets wound up because of that letter, when it's obvious Sansa was being held hostage at the time, then she's pretty dumb. If Littlefinger never gets to have a "X --> Y --> and now I'm king" plan that comes to any fruition and instead gets killed because he played drama between the Stark sisters than he's much less threatening than I thought.

 

[greyhammer90]

Succession in Westeros seems to be Agnatic, which makes sense since it's largely based on medieval England. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark prior to fathering Jon, so Jon's claim is superior to Dany's. Dany's claim is dependent on Rhaegar's entire line having been wiped out, which isn't the case.

Jon is tha King o' tha North, East, South... hell every-damn-where.

 

[wizards8507]

Speaking of death and inheritance and all that... one thing that's bugged me about the shows in recent seasons is how empty the world seems. We have the list of characters we know and follow and everyone else seems to get killed off with no explanation of what happens behind them. Storms End, Dragonstone, the Dreadfort, Karhold, Last Hearth, the Eyrie, Harrenhal, Casterly Rock, the Twins, Riverrun, and now Highgarden are pretty much empty or just recently captured. Where are all the people?

 

[dublinirish]

Speaking of death and inheritance and all that... one thing that's bugged me about the shows in recent seasons is how empty the world seems. We have the list of characters we know and follow and everyone else seems to get killed off with no explanation of what happens behind them. Storms End, Dragonstone, the Dreadfort, Karhold, Last Hearth, the Eyrie, Harrenhal, Casterly Rock, the Twins, Riverrun, and now Highgarden are pretty much empty or just recently captured. Where are all the people?

yet there are 500,000 citizens of king's landing haha

 

[wizards8507]

It's pretty disappointing because no matter which direction this goes, someone is much dumber than I thought. If Arya actually gets wound up because of that letter, when it's obvious Sansa was being held hostage at the time, then she's pretty dumb. If Littlefinger never gets to have a "X --> Y --> and now I'm king" plan that comes to any fruition and instead gets killed because he played drama between the Stark sisters than he's much less threatening than I thought.

I think Littlefinger suffers more than any other character from the translation from page to screen. He probably could have been cut from the TV show entirely. Littlefinger's scheme with Harry the Heir on the novels is some of the most delicious morsels that GRRM gives us, but that type of machination doesn't really work as the C-plot in a TV show about dragons and ice zombies.

 

[greyhammer90]

Speaking of death and inheritance and all that... one thing that's bugged me about the shows in recent seasons is how empty the world seems. We have the list of characters we know and follow and everyone else seems to get killed off with no explanation of what happens behind them. Storms End, Dragonstone, the Dreadfort, Karhold, Last Hearth, the Eyrie, Harrenhal, Casterly Rock, the Twins, Riverrun, and now Highgarden are pretty much empty or just recently captured. Where are all the people?

An unfortunate but understandable limitation of time and the medium. But yeah, thinking about that stuff makes me at least empathize with GRRM re: the wait between books. It's got to be a real pain to constantly be trying to think about how every player would react to every outcome.

...He still needs to finish that crap up though.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

Succession in Westeros seems to be Agnatic, which makes sense since it's largely based on medieval England. Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark prior to fathering Jon, so Jon's claim is superior to Dany's. Dany's claim is dependent on Rhaegar's entire line having been wiped out, which isn't the case.

That makes sense. Everyone is saying how Jon has the best claim and I just couldn't figure out how. I guess I was thinking of it as more of a dynamic title that went to Viserys at the moment Rhaegar died and Jon wasn't born yet, but only matters once the mad king died, which was after Jon was born.

 

[greyhammer90]

I think Littlefinger suffers more than any other character from the translation from page to screen. He probably could have been cut from the TV show entirely. Littlefinger's scheme with Harry the Heir on the novels is some of the most delicious morsels that GRRM gives us, but that type of machination doesn't really work as the C-plot in a TV show about dragons and ice zombies.

How about how he's Lord of the Vale and yet never sits at the lords table in Winterfell. Always in some corner like he's still an inconspicuous commoner.

We get it directors, he's secretive and unsavory, but he doesn't have to be in the shadows in every scene. We are not dumb, we won't get confused.