Game of Thrones

[Whiskeyjack]

1. Panic is reasonable, perfect human nature.

2. Eh, maybe, if you use mud correctly sure. But medieval construction did not exactly meet fire code.

It was just really implausible that: (1) all those khals would sit there and take her condescending insults when she was completely at their mercy; and (2) that the temple would turn into a raging inferno within moments of a single brazier being knocked over.

3. No, that would've been predictable, and would've shown no character development.

Predictable is better than implausible. And I don't think it would be all that predictable either, since up to this point Dany has had virtually no control over her dragons. This is supposed to be her "Fire and Blood" moment, where she remembers her family's words and decides she's done f*cking around with politics. Having Dany calmly standing up to the khals (confident that she really has the upper hand due to Drogon) and having him swoop down to barbecue them right before they kill her would have accomplished the same character development, and it wouldn't have required the implausible plot reaches we're criticizing above.

 

[NOLAIrish]

Martin, Benioff and Weis all explicitly point out that Dothraki society is premised on brute force; that they "follow strength above all", and that once a Khal shows weakness, he will either be challenged and killed, or his khalasar will abandon him. So these guys are all supposed to be macho bad asses, the alpha males of a brutal pastoral society.

And yet they all just sit there while a smirking Daenerys insults them, and then they scream like little girls and run in circles when she pushes over a brazier.



There is no reason, other than lazy writing. Attila would have well understood the risk of gathering his entire power structure in a tinder box of a structure filled with torches (as would any average Hun; they knew how to build shelters that wouldn't go up in the flames like that).

Would have been much better to have Dany subdue the Dothraki via Drogon.

That whole scene felt lazy and forced to me, too -- "Hey, guys, remember that badass fire thing we had Dany do at the end of Season 1? Remember? Also, her boobs are back!"

I was worried they were also going to go down the "Jon Snow loses the faith and wanders in the wilderness" storyline, but they seem to have reigned that in as quickly as it started.

One thing I'm interested in following this episode:

So, presumably, Dany is now going to bring this super-khalasar to Meereen to put down the rebellion and retake the other cities. In the interim, though, Tyrion -- who thought they had a significantly weaker occupying force than they now do -- cut a deal with the other two slave cities. How do you think she'll respond? Will she honor that deal? What happens to Tyrion?

 

[gkIrish]

While we are nitpicking the hell out of this (I'm as much to blame as anyone)...

Lazy Writing 101:

At the end of Episode 3, Jon Snow mic drops and marches literally OUT the gates of Castle Black presumably never to come back again.

Beginning of Episode 4, Jon Snow is chilling inside Castle Black.

lol wut?

 

[IrishLax]

It was just really implausible that: (1) all those khals would sit there and take her condescending insults when she was completely at their mercy; and (2) that the temple would turn into a raging inferno within moments of a single brazier being knocked over.

Isn't that why they did it? And why they laughed at her? I'm much more prone to laugh at someone who I consider beneath me and not a threat than someone I consider a "peer"... for example, if a co-worker starts mouthing off you'd do something about it, but if a toddler was mouthing off you'd probably laugh.

Predictable is better than implausible. And I don't think it would be all that predictable either, since up to this point Dany has had virtually no control over her dragons. This is supposed to be her "Fire and Blood" moment, where she remembers her family's words and decides she's done f*cking around with politics. Having Dany calmly standing up to the khals (confident that she really has the upper hand due to Drogon) and having him swoop down to barbecue them right before they kill her would have accomplished the same character development, and it wouldn't have required the implausible plot reaches we're criticizing above.

The scene is universally lauded... except by a small, vocal minority. You can guess what they all have in common.*

*Not "all"... but in general, it's book readers who have complained about "realism" and plot choices every. single. episode. this season... from icy water truthers in episode one to "how flammable was that hut?" skeptics from last night.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The scene is universally lauded... except by a small, vocal minority. You can guess what they all have in common.*

*Not "all"... but in general, it's book readers who have complained about "realism" and plot choices every. single. episode. this season... from icy water truthers in episode one to "how flammable was that hut?" skeptics from last night.

I get that this must be annoying for those who haven't read the books. But this isn't pointless pedantry. "Realism" is one of Martin's best qualities. The Dothraki aren't Dark Elves who live deep underground and derive magical powers from special red crystals; they're a pastoral people modeled on the Huns. GRRM knows his history, which is why the books feel so much more real than those produced by lesser fantasy writers.

Put another way, while reading the books, I virtually never rolled my eyes and muttered, "Really? One guy took on all those soldiers by himself and won?" or "How convenient for all of those arrows to narrowly miss Jon," or "Geez, that was a lazy bit of deus ex machina Martin relied on to save Tyrion..." But there's at least one such scene in every GoT episode that makes me do that.

So yeah, when Benioff and Weis take liberties with the story that compromise that realism without an obvious narrative benefit, it annoys me and a lot of other readers. Talking about that annoyance here is cathartic. Perhaps we need a different thread for those who don't bristle at criticism of the show.

 

[IrishLax]

I get that this must be annoying for those who haven't read the books. But this isn't pointless pedantry. "Realism" is one of Martin's best qualities. The Dothraki aren't Dark Elves who live deep underground and derive magical powers from special red crystals; they're a pastoral people modeled on the Huns. GRRM knows his history, which is why the books feel so much more real than those produced by lesser fantasy writers.

Put another way, while reading the books, I virtually never rolled my eyes and muttered, "Really? One guy took on all those soldiers by himself and won?" or "How convenient for all of those arrows to narrowly miss Jon," or "Geez, that was a lazy bit of deus ex machina Martin relied on to save the Tyrion..." But there's at least one such scene in every GoT episode that makes me do that.

So yeah, when Benioff and Weis take liberties with the story that compromise that realism without an obvious narrative benefit, it annoys me and a lot of other readers. Talking about that annoyance here is cathartic. Perhaps we need a different thread for those who don't bristle at criticism of the show.

1. Tyrion ingesting a ton of greyscale water, is fine.
2. There just happened to be a guy who witnessed the sack of Winterfell, didn't get caught, then watched where all the Starks went... and then ended up with the Manderlys and gave them info that without the plot grinds to a screeching halt. Yeah, OK.
3. Tyrion gets dehorsed while fighting a knight, and instead of yielding he yells a cheesy quote and JUMPS UP INTO THE UNDER BELLY OF THE HORSE... and kills it with the spire of his freaking helm. The horse falls down and traps his adversary, Tyrion wins. If you saw that on TV, you eyes would roll so hard they'd end up in the back of your skull.

I could go on and on and on. The problem is not the show. The problem is that when readers read (in general) they tend to suspend disbelief, because they're not watching something... they let their mind fill in the blanks and move on.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm with Lax in this discussion, fellas. You guys put waaaay too much thought into ways to nitpick the show and then do so after every.single.episode... If you think you guys roll your eyes and say "really?" every week, think how we feel opening this thread.

It's a made up world, in a made up universe in a make believe existence. Literally nothing is unlikely or unrealistic, because the whole damn idea of it is. I'm not saying keep your thoughts to yourself, but I feel we all lose in this thread when all we ever discuss is nitpicks of the plot/characters/scenes.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

1. Tyrion ingesting a ton of greyscale water, is fine.
2. There just happened to be a guy who witnessed the sack of Winterfell, didn't get caught, then watched where all the Starks went... and then ended up with the Manderlys and gave them info that without the plot grinds to a screeching halt. Yeah, OK.
3. Tyrion gets dehorsed while fighting a knight, and instead of yielding he yells a cheesy quote and JUMPS UP INTO THE UNDER BELLY OF THE HORSE... and kills it with the spire of his freaking helm. The horse falls down and traps his adversary, Tyrion wins. If you saw that on TV, you eyes would roll so hard they'd end up in the back of your skull.

I could go on and on and on. The problem is not the show. The problem is that when readers read (in general) they tend to suspend disbelief, because they're not watching something... they let their mind fill in the blanks and move on.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's really even debatable that Martin's books are strongly grounded in the historical details of medieval Europe, but if you didn't much care about that aspect of the book,s I guess I can see where you're coming from.

I'm with Lax in this discussion, fellas. You guys put waaaay too much thought into ways to nitpick the show and then do so after every.single.episode... If you think you guys roll your eyes and say "really?" every week, think how we feel opening this thread.

It's a made up world, in a made up universe in a make believe existence. Literally nothing is unlikely or unrealistic, because the whole damn idea of it is. I'm not saying keep your thoughts to yourself, but I feel we all lose in this thread when all we ever discuss is nitpicks of the plot/characters/scenes.

Understood. How about all neck-bearded criticism of the shows be limited to the A Song of Ice and Fire thread? That way those of us who love the books and need to bitch about Benioff and Weis mishandling the source material can vent to each other without dragging down the show thread with our pedantry.

 

[TheSunIsRising]

I'm with Lax in this discussion, fellas. You guys put waaaay too much thought into ways to nitpick the show and then do so after every.single.episode... If you think you guys roll your eyes and say "really?" every week, think how we feel opening this thread.

It's a made up world, in a made up universe in a make believe existence. Literally nothing is unlikely or unrealistic, because the whole damn idea of it is. I'm not saying keep your thoughts to yourself, but I feel we all lose in this thread when all we ever discuss is nitpicks of the plot/characters/scenes.

Yeah, next people will be nitpicking virtually every play call of every game during the football season. Oh wait, like 'that' will ever happen.....

 

[GoIrish41]

He should choose his hand carefully.

Valyrian Viagra

 

[woolybug25]

Understood. How about all neck-bearded criticism of the shows be limited to the A Song of Ice and Fire thread? That way those of us who love the books and need to bitch about Benioff and Weis mishandling the source material can vent to each other without dragging down the show thread with our pedantry.

That seems fair. Plus, it'll piss off JohnyCando... which is an added bonus.

 

[johnnycando]

That seems fair. Plus, it'll piss off JohnyCando... which is an added bonus.

Lol. Bruh no way.

I attempt to moderate as a "we the people, for the people" way.

How could I be mad!?

Daenarys showed off her baby Stallion feed sacks last night.

I'm happy as FUCK!

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

It was just really implausible that: (1) all those khals would sit there and take her condescending insults when she was completely at their mercy; and (2) that the temple would turn into a raging inferno within moments of a single brazier being knocked over.



Predictable is better than implausible. And I don't think it would be all that predictable either, since up to this point Dany has had virtually no control over her dragons. This is supposed to be her "Fire and Blood" moment, where she remembers her family's words and decides she's done f*cking around with politics. Having Dany calmly standing up to the khals (confident that she really has the upper hand due to Drogon) and having him swoop down to barbecue them right before they kill her would have accomplished the same character development, and it wouldn't have required the implausible plot reaches we're criticizing above.

I thought that was where Jorah and the poor-acting boy toy helped. Or perhaps her new khaleesi friend. I thought someone doused the floors in something flammable prior to the khal meeting. Perhaps I was being too fair in my assumption.

 

[woolybug25]

I thought that was where Jorah and the poor-acting boy toy helped. Or perhaps her new khaleesi friend. I thought someone doused the floors in something flammable prior to the khal meeting. Perhaps I was being too fair in my assumption.

That was my assumption as well. She clearly told her khaleesi friend "and you're going to help me". Well, she sure as shit didn't kill the guards. So what did she help with? My assumption was putting something down to make the ground flammable.

 

[bkess8]

I'm just glad Daenarys showed off the bombs again last night.

 

[greyhammer90]

No, that would've been predictable, and would've shown no character development.

Just my opinion, but I'll take predictable and makes sense over dramatic and doesn't make sense.

Again, not saying the scene was blasphemous or anything, but it had a TON of "well it's a good thing the totally plausible and maybe even probable x didn't happen because that would've ruined the entire plan."

 

[IrishLax]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it's really even debatable that Martin's books are strongly grounded in the historical details of medieval Europe, but if you didn't much care about that aspect of the book,s I guess I can see where you're coming from.

I totally agree with that.

My point was that you can't hate dual wield for being unrealistic... and then turn around and say an unhorsed dwarf defeating a knight by headbutting the guys horse in the belly is fine.

The books have serious issues too, they just get totally glossed over. So every moment you can point to on screen and say "that's ridiculous" you could likewise point to a book moment that is just as outlandish. It just doesn't seem that way because when it happens on screen it hits you in the face, whereas in the books your mind fills in the blanks and smooths it over.

 

[phillyirish]

It looked to me during the scene, that the Khals were sitting on hay bale like furniture, and the hay bale like material extended all the way to the platform Daenyreas was situated on. If so that material would have easily ignited if touched by flame.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

The way it played out it seemed as if she or those guys put something flammable leading up to those dudes the way the fire spread. I was more focused on her afterwards.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm on vacation and behind, so apologies if I missed it earlier in the current debate, but my first thought at the end of the episode was, "it's gonna be too predictable when the whispers tell Dany to burn everything, but she's the one that ends up dead in a fire that she starts."

Will Rickon hold out? Be killed as Ramsay's final shock when Jon Snow shows up to save the day? Or will he live but be crippled and broken, like Reek?

PLOT TWIST: Smalljon Umber has been working with the Manderlys, and is also one of a select few to know that Jon was legitimized by Robb Stark before the Young Wolf's death. The Smalljon stabs Ramsay in the back, and just when everyone assumes that Sansa takes her seat in Winterfell... BAM. JON STARK-TARGARYEN, KING IN THE NORTH.

 

[dublinirish]

I'm just glad Daenarys showed off the bombs again last night.

actually a body double (same as they did during cersei's walk of atonement). Clarke has a no nudity clause now in her contract

 

[phork]

actually a body double (same as they did during cersei's walk of atonement). Clarke has a no nudity clause now in her contract

Actually she confirmed it was actually her.

 

[dublinirish]

Actually she confirmed it was actually her.

ah really? my bad

 

[wizards8507]

"The Knights of the Vale are assembled at Moat Cailin" he said, in a throwaway line like that's NBD. That's insanely huge.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[wizards8507]

WTF!? The Blackfish has reappeared and taken Riverrun... offscreen!?

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[wizards8507]

Aaand the CotF created the Others. I'm done.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[gkIrish]

RIP Hodor. That was powerful.

...and I guess Bran can change the future?

 

[woolybug25]

Aaand the CotF created the Others. I'm done.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

Good, bye Felicia.

Literally no one looks forward to your weekly bitching session in this thread. Peace.

 

[gkIrish]

Can someone explain what was going on with Tyrion/Varys and that priestess? I couldn't follow that at all.

 

[gkIrish]

RIP Hodor. That was powerful.

P.S. that was the first time I cried watching this show...