Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapses

TorontoGold

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I think this has been the case for many many years. My grandparents and their brothers/sisters all immigrated to the US and they had to take whatever work they could find in order to take care of their families. Of course, the government was not giving them entitlements in order to help sustain themselves back then. Immigrants have commonly had to take on some difficult work assignments but I also think this can be a galvanizing opportunity for them (it certainly was for my family). The fact that the two Guatamalan workers were apparenlty killed (I don’t know if their bodies have been recovered) in a freak accident doesn’t mean that they should be used as an example for migrants being taken advantage of or treated badly. I’d bet they felt fortunate to have opportunity that they didn’t have in their home country.

Yes, I think many of us here have similar experiences. I know my grandparents did. I think one of the best lessons I was taught is that just because we faced something difficult it doesn't mean that others should have to as well. I would like to think they'd appreciate how much better people are treated today then when they grew up in the 20's and fought for their country even though they were first generation immigrants.

Maybe it's not a shared sentiment, but the tragedy shouldn't get lessened because of someone's immigration status. I don't think pointing out how certain groups should be treated better is wrong.
 

Rockin’Irish

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Yes, I think many of us here have similar experiences. I know my grandparents did. I think one of the best lessons I was taught is that just because we faced something difficult it doesn't mean that others should have to as well. I would like to think they'd appreciate how much better people are treated today then when they grew up in the 20's and fought for their country even though they were first generation immigrants.

Maybe it's not a shared sentiment, but the tragedy shouldn't get lessened because of someone's immigration status. I don't think pointing out how certain groups should be treated better is wrong.
I appreciate your comments big fella…….but I do think we should all face difficult times, it’s what gives us the ability to overcome the many obstacles we will face over our lifetimes and appreciate our accomplishments. I also think we shouldn’t put people in bad situations just because some will view them as less than. The bridge tragedy shouldn’t be lessened, period. It is a tragic situation that hopefully can be learned from. I’m interested to see how the facts unfold (or at least the ones we commoners will be privy to).
 

Blazers46

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Is he wrong? Do migrants illegal/legal not work dangerous jobs? Do politicians show indifference to them and are insensitive about their lives?

Human beings should always be treated better. It really *shouldn't* matter their immigration status when someone dies in an accident.

It’s distasteful right or wrong… time and place. Probably not the time. I’m sure those guys busted their ass.
 

Blazers46

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Maybe it's not a shared sentiment, but the tragedy shouldn't get lessened because of someone's immigration status. I don't think pointing out how certain groups should be treated better is wrong.
who is lessening the tragedy? I actually think this makes dingleberrys conspiracy theories all the more hilarious but surely not trying to lessen what happened. Just simply pointing out it wasn’t appropriate to use this tragedy to make his point.
 

TorontoGold

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I appreciate your comments big fella…….but I do think we should all face difficult times, it’s what gives us the ability to overcome the many obstacles we will face over our lifetimes and appreciate our accomplishments. I also think we shouldn’t put people in bad situations just because some will view them as less than. The bridge tragedy shouldn’t be lessened, period. It is a tragic situation that hopefully can be learned from. I’m interested to see how the facts unfold (or at least the ones we commoners will be privy to).
Right, but my point is that we shouldn't allow identifiable "difficult times" to continue because our relatives faced them or it makes people "stronger". If this was the case then the "strongest" people of all time were people who lived in caves that had the scavenge for food everyday.

who is lessening the tragedy? I actually think this makes dingleberrys conspiracy theories all the more hilarious but surely not trying to lessen what happened. Just simply pointing out it wasn’t appropriate to use this tragedy to make his point.
When is the appropriate time? This might not be the most perfect time to make that point, but I think tone policing on a tragedy is tacky.

Dingle is trying to make this something that it's not, you don't need to follow him making it into something else.
 

Blazers46

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When is the appropriate time? This might not be the most perfect time to make that point, but I think tone policing on a tragedy is tacky.

Dingle is trying to make this something that it's not, you don't need to follow him making it into something else.
My comment was commenting on someone making it about something else… but tone police. Tacky. Stop.
 

Bluto

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I did just read that the construction workers that plummeted into the water where Hispanic construction workers, some from Mexico. If anyone is making this political the present of Mexico is suggesting that this is a result of Americans mistreating immigrants. Or something like that. I thought that was a pretty dumb statement.
The presidents of Mexico have been hopelessly corrupt and criminals for as long as I’ve been alive. Them saying stupid stuff to deflect is nothing new.

I still can’t believe that Vicente Fox of all people was trotted out by some media outlets in order to criticize Trump.
 

TorontoGold

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My comment was commenting on someone making it about something else… but tone police. Tacky. Stop.
Keep fighting the good fight. You should let the President of Mexico what he can and can't comment on, please share with him the proper timing of when he's allowed to comment on how migrants are treated.

Pretty telling you're willing to carry this on, and yet don't have a word for the people trying to put their own conspiracy on it.
 

Blazers46

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Keep fighting the good fight. You should let the President of Mexico what he can and can't comment on, please share with him the proper timing of when he's allowed to comment on how migrants are treated.

Pretty telling you're willing to carry this on, and yet don't have a word for the people trying to put their own conspiracy on it.
I actually did but go prove your points and win your little message board arguments. You are a special kind of idiot. Is this a silence is violence type stance? Fuck sake. I don’t even know how you like you.
 

TorontoGold

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I actually did but go prove your points and win your little message board arguments. You are a special kind of idiot. Is this a silence is violence type stance? Fuck sake. I don’t even know how you like you.
lmao you started off with "I read..." without sourcing what you read, then looking at what the mexican president said - instead of arguing on the points he said, you want to tone police when people say what and what's appropriate.

Never said silence is violence, just pointed out how you get your rocks off jumping to culture war shit all the time. Now, we've reached the Blazer argument life cycle wherein you now revert back to "Big meanie! You just want internet points!" when I call you on your shit.

Whatever dude, Mr. Mexico President is a bad guy because he said migrants work tough jobs and don't deserve to be treated as they are by certain politicians. He really desecrated the moment of the tragedy by making those comments. Thank you for ensuring the sanctity of the moment by ensuring the Mexican president is held to account on his nasty comments as you champion the efforts to preserve the media space surrounding the tragedy.
 

Blazers46

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lmao you started off with "I read..." without sourcing what you read, then looking at what the mexican president said - instead of arguing on the points he said, you want to tone police when people say what and what's appropriate.

Never said silence is violence, just pointed out how you get your rocks off jumping to culture war shit all the time. Now, we've reached the Blazer argument life cycle wherein you now revert back to "Big meanie! You just want internet points!" when I call you on your shit.

Whatever dude, Mr. Mexico President is a bad guy because he said migrants work tough jobs and don't deserve to be treated as they are by certain politicians. He really desecrated the moment of the tragedy by making those comments. Thank you for ensuring the sanctity of the moment by ensuring the Mexican president is held to account on his nasty comments as you champion the efforts to preserve the media space surrounding the tragedy.
So triggered and im okay with it. How many calculators died today…
 

T-Boone

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Some of you need to grow up. Don’t you have educations from impressive universities. Someone says something you don’t agree with (or is even ridiculous) just let it slide rather than clog this thread up with your gang attack. Nothing worse than watching a pack gang up on an individual. It is sickening.
 

INLaw

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Acting as though Koon is a dumb kid we're all bullying is honestly a better burn than I could come up with. The line that we all went to good colleges subtly creating an inference that he didn't do the same is really good shit. 🤌🏻 10/10.
Does IU count as a good college…asking for a friend lol
 

Bishop2b5

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So, I'm no expert on shipping and large ships, so hopefully someone can help me here. Apparently the ship lost power at a terrible moment for such to happen, then drifted into the bridge while trying to regain power and control. I'm a little surprised that total propulsion loss would even be a thing short of a major explosion in the engine room. How does the entire propulsion system go down at once. Aren't there backup systems in place to supply at least enough power to avoid what happened? Surely this ship has more than just one engine. What am I missing?
 

Blazers46

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So, I'm no expert on shipping and large ships, so hopefully someone can help me here. Apparently the ship lost power at a terrible moment for such to happen, then drifted into the bridge while trying to regain power and control. I'm a little surprised that total propulsion loss would even be a thing short of a major explosion in the engine room. How does the entire propulsion system go down at once. Aren't there backup systems in place to supply at least enough power to avoid what happened? Surely this ship has more than just one engine. What am I missing?
I thought I read somewhere it could have been bad/dirty gas/fuel… but I don’t have a link so write me a long post about how I get off on talking bad about gas with no sourcing information to back up my position in case you want argue about it.
 
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GATTACA!

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Acting as though Koon is a dumb kid we're all bullying is honestly a better burn than I could come up with. The line that we all went to good colleges subtly creating an inference that he didn't do the same is really good shit. 🤌🏻 10/10.
If he wanted it to be a 10/10 he would have needed to slip in some reference to Koon being 5'7"

I find it relevant. You do not have to.

So, I'm no expert on shipping and large ships, so hopefully someone can help me here. Apparently the ship lost power at a terrible moment for such to happen, then drifted into the bridge while trying to regain power and control. I'm a little surprised that total propulsion loss would even be a thing short of a major explosion in the engine room. How does the entire propulsion system go down at once. Aren't there backup systems in place to supply at least enough power to avoid what happened? Surely this ship has more than just one engine. What am I missing?

I think this ship/company might just be cheap and sketchy. I saw a video of the same boat slamming into a pier in Antwerp in 2016.
 

Rockin’Irish

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So, I'm no expert on shipping and large ships, so hopefully someone can help me here. Apparently the ship lost power at a terrible moment for such to happen, then drifted into the bridge while trying to regain power and control. I'm a little surprised that total propulsion loss would even be a thing short of a major explosion in the engine room. How does the entire propulsion system go down at once. Aren't there backup systems in place to supply at least enough power to avoid what happened? Surely this ship has more than just one engine. What am I missing?
There is a back up generator system on these large ships but 1) it generally takes some time to fully come on line and 2) the back up system generally does not have enough power to propel or steer the ship. I use the term “generally” because there may be exceptions. Based on the videos it appears that the back up systems may have tried to engage but in the end it failed (or was inadequate to prevent the collision). I did read that the anchor may have been deployed.
 

Redbar

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So, I'm no expert on shipping and large ships, so hopefully someone can help me here. Apparently the ship lost power at a terrible moment for such to happen, then drifted into the bridge while trying to regain power and control. I'm a little surprised that total propulsion loss would even be a thing short of a major explosion in the engine room. How does the entire propulsion system go down at once. Aren't there backup systems in place to supply at least enough power to avoid what happened? Surely this ship has more than just one engine. What am I missing?
It is true that the ship lost power at an incredibly in opportune time. Total propulsion failures do happen frequently, just not at absolutely critical times. I don’t think the issue is as simple as “bad gas”. What happened was MARPOL VI which was an international agreement formed in 2020 where nations agreed to limit the sulphur and nitrogen emissions from ships that typically burned what was called “heavy fuel”. So this agreement allows the ships to burn the heavy caloric fuel with all of its additional lubricants that get in all the component parts of these large ship engines as long as they are out at sea, but when they get close to ports they must switch to low sulphur diesel fuel, which has much less caloric benefit for not only power but also for lubrication. Most of these vessels were designed to run on the ’heavy fuel’. Every engineering department on every ship has had to learn how to properly maintain their engine plant given these new leaner fuels. As this ship was just entering the port she had probably not long been on the high sulphur diesel and frequently there are issues while the engine is in a ‘transition” from one fuel to the other.
Since probably 95% of the ships time is at sea getting from one port to another and a relatively small amount of time is spent in port, the policy seems more symbolic than substantive, with the added issues of less power in narrow channels and while maneuvering around high density populations, and potentially critical/strategic sometimes explosive/toxic infrastructure.
Now the ides that a ship like that could have a totally redundant propulsion mechanism Isn’t practical either. A very few do, mostly passenger vessels. Neither is requiring these ships to burn low sulphur diesel at all times. Most simply don’t have large enough tanks to support that and it is WAY more expensive than the ”heavy fuel”.
This is a very sad and tragic accident, from what I am seeing so far, everybody did the very best they could given the hand they were dealt that night. As these vessels which cost in the hundreds of millions of dollars phase out and new ones are built and designed to burn the fuels required in the treaty of 2020 this will happen less. But then again there will probably be some new more efficient innovation then that will have to be adjusted to on the fly. But no matter what machines will break. Unfortunately this one “broke” at a bad time.
 
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Bishop2b5

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Now the ides that a ship like that could have a totally redundant propulsion mechanism Isn’t practical either.

I certainly wouldn't expect a totally redundant full propulsion system. I was thinking more along the lines of something much smaller, but capable of providing enough short-term emergency power to at least provide some steering and maneuvering to avoid what we had this week.
 

Redbar

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I certainly wouldn't expect a totally redundant full propulsion system. I was thinking more along the lines of something much smaller, but capable of providing enough short-term emergency power to at least provide some steering and maneuvering to avoid what we had this week.
I see what you are saying, but consider, while I’m not exactly sure of this specific ships particulars, I know when you get a vessel in excess of three football fields long moving uncontrolled at even an 8 or 9 knot clip, (especially when in a river system with all the hydrodynamic problems that deep draft and shallow narrow channels provide) it will require significant power to be able to confidently predict avoiding catastrophic events once a failure has occurred. I agree it would be ideal, I just don’t know if it could practically be done on a design level on all of the vessels engaged or how the cost of doing it would impact these fragile global markets.
 

Irish#1

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I would have thought they would use tugs to bring it in and out.
 
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