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Quinntastic

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I'm actually pro-choice, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here before pro-lifers utterly eviscerate this post...

When does that "fetus" become a person? Because a 5 month old "fetus" can survive outside the womb in many cases... making it a living, breathing person. There isn't any nuance in your post about that, which is the biggest philosophical sticking point of the whole abortion debate.

And then if your argument is that you should be able to murder a person because you don't want to be financially responsible for it, that's literally the dumbest possible argument you can make considering how many people sit around praying and waiting to adopt a baby. There are lots of arguments for pro-choice, the "I should be able to do whatever I want, period" argument doesn't fly with basic modern society/laws that prohibit all kinds of freedom of action, and "I don't want to pay for it" is a self-indulgent non-starter. So you should really rephrase what you said if you want it to be taken seriously.

Now I'm done #Mansplaining...


So now we are back to the when does life begin and when do abortions happen argument. If your argument is that life begins when the fetus becomes viable outside of the womb, then abortions aren't performed that late in pregnancy unless it is a medical emergency.
 
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Cackalacky

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That's one of the first principles of liberalism, but it's not true. God, or something very much like Him, is logically necessary for the world we find ourselves. And while reason alone is admittedly insufficient to prove the personal God of Christianity, there is still plenty of compelling evidence in its favor, like the witness of the saints over the last 2,000 years.

Which brings me back to my old argument that liberalism is itself a religion, with doctrinaire first principles that the vast majority of Americans accept reflexively, and which is utterly at odds with Christianity (long read, but well worth your time).

What confuses me is that even in liberal societies, everyone agrees that chattel slavery and the Holocaust are the two great moral calamities of recent history. The way those two events still press on us to this day only makes sense if objective moral truth exists, and those events violated that law on a staggering scale.

Orthodox Christianity sees slavery, genocide and abortion as the same thing-- the large-scale dehumanization, commoditization and brutalization of a vulnerable minority-- and condemns all of it. While Liberalism tries to justify the third with an utterly incoherent argument about "personhood" and "individual autonomy" which completely contradicts its condemnation of the former two.

Lots of things that liberals take for granted are unsustainable without Christian moral norms. We're going to have to pick one or the other soon.
I know we have touched on this before but the agument for a necessary being is tenuous:

4.5 Objection 4: Problems with the Concept of a Necessary Being
Immanuel Kant objected to the use of “necessary being” throughout the cosmological argument, and hence to the conclusion that a necessary being exists. Kant held that the cosmological argument, in concluding to the existence of an absolutely necessary being, attempts to prove the existence of a being whose nonexistence “is impossible”, is “absolutely inconceivable” (Critique B621). Kant indicates that what he has in mind by an “absolutely necessary being” is a being whose existence is logically necessary, where to deny its existence is contradictory. The only being that meets this condition is the most real or maximally excellent being—a being with all perfections, including existence. This concept lies at the heart of the ontological argument (see entry on ontological arguments). Although in the ontological argument the perfect being is determined to exist through its own concept, in fact nothing can be determined to exist in this manner; one has to begin with existence. In short, the cosmological argument presupposes the cogency of the ontological argument. But since the ontological argument is defective for the above (and other) reason, the cosmological argument that depends on or invokes it likewise must be defective (Critique B634).

Kant’s contention that the necessity found in “necessary being” is logical necessity was common up through the 1960s. J.J.C. Smart wrote,

And by “a necessary being” the cosmological argument means “a logically necessary being”, i.e., “a being whose non-existence is inconceivable in the sort of way that a triangle’s having four sides is inconceivable”.… Now since “necessary” is a word which applies primarily to propositions, we shall have to interpret “God is a necessary being” as “The proposition ‘God exists’ is logically necessary”. (in Flew and MacIntyre 1955: 38; in a later work Smart (Smart and Haldane 1996: 41–47) broadened his notion of necessity.)

Many recent discussions of the cosmological argument, both supporting and critiquing it, interpret the notion of a necessary being as a being that cannot not exist (O’Connor 2008: 78, 2013: 38). For example, Gale-Pruss contend that speaking about necessary beings does not differ from speaking of the necessity of propositions (see section 5). As such, as Plantinga notes, if a necessary being is possible, it exists (God, Freedom and Evil, 1967: 110). It is a being that exists in all possible worlds. The only question that remains is whether God’s existence is possible. This notion is similar to, if not a modernization of, Aquinas’s contention that God’s essence is to exist. Aquinas attempts to avoid the accusation that this invokes the ontological argument on the grounds that we do not have an adequate concept of God’s essence (ST I,q.2,a.1). However, if we understand “necessary being” in this sense, we can dispose of the cosmological argument as irrelevant; what is needed rather is an argument to establish that God’s existence is possible, for if it is possible that it is necessary that God exists, then God exists (by Axiom S5).

But this need not be the sense in which “necessary being” is understood in the cosmological argument. A more adequate notion of necessary being is that the necessity is metaphysical or factual. A necessary being is one that if it exists, it neither came into existence nor can cease to exist, and correspondingly, if it does not exist, it cannot come into existence (Reichenbach 1972: 117–20). If it exists, it eternally maintains its own existence; it is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. So understood, the cosmological argument does not rely on notions central to the ontological argument. Rather, instead of being superfluous, the cosmological argument, if sound, gives us reason to think that the necessary being exists rather than not.

Mackie replies that if God has metaphysical necessity, God’s existence is logically contingent, such that some reason is required for God’s own existence (Mackie 1982: 84). That is, if God necessarily exists in the sense that if he exists, he exists in all possible worlds, it remains logically possible that God does not exist in any (and all) possible worlds. Hence, God, as Swinburne notes (2004: 79, 148) is a logically contingent being, and so could have not-existed. Why, then, does God exist? The PSR can be applied to the necessary being.

The theist responds that the PSR does not address logical contingency but metaphysical contingency. One is not required to find a reason for what is not metaphysically contingent. It is not that the necessary being is self-explanatory; rather, a demand for explaining its existence is inappropriate. Hence, the theist concludes, Hawking’s question “Who created God?” (Hawking 1988: 174) is out of place (Davis 1997). We will return to this discussion in section 8.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/#Obje4ProbConcNeceBein
 

NorthDakota

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So now we are back to the when does life begin and when do abortions happen argument. If your argument is that life begins when the fetus becomes viable outside of the womb, then abortions aren't performed that late in pregnancy unless it is a medical emergency.

A child is not viable for years...how old do you think you were when you were actually capable of taking care of yourself??
 
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Cackalacky

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That's one of the first principles of liberalism, but it's not true. God, or something very much like Him, is logically necessary for the world we find ourselves. And while reason alone is admittedly insufficient to prove the personal God of Christianity, there is still plenty of compelling evidence in its favor, like the witness of the saints over the last 2,000 years.

Which brings me back to my old argument that liberalism is itself a religion, with doctrinaire first principles that the vast majority of Americans accept reflexively, and which is utterly at odds with Christianity (long read, but well worth your time).

What confuses me is that even in liberal societies, everyone agrees that chattel slavery and the Holocaust are the two great moral calamities of recent history. The way those two events still press on us to this day only makes sense if objective moral truth exists, and those events violated that law on a staggering scale.

Orthodox Christianity sees slavery, genocide and abortion as the same thing-- the large-scale dehumanization, commoditization and brutalization of a vulnerable minority-- and condemns all of it. While Liberalism tries to justify the third with an utterly incoherent argument about "personhood" and "individual autonomy" which completely contradicts its condemnation of the former two.

Lots of things that liberals take for granted are unsustainable without Christian moral norms. We're going to have to pick one or the other soon.
I know we have touched on this before but the agument for a necessary being is tenuous:

4.5 Objection 4: Problems with the Concept of a Necessary Being
Immanuel Kant objected to the use of “necessary being” throughout the cosmological argument, and hence to the conclusion that a necessary being exists. Kant held that the cosmological argument, in concluding to the existence of an absolutely necessary being, attempts to prove the existence of a being whose nonexistence “is impossible”, is “absolutely inconceivable” (Critique B621). Kant indicates that what he has in mind by an “absolutely necessary being” is a being whose existence is logically necessary, where to deny its existence is contradictory. The only being that meets this condition is the most real or maximally excellent being—a being with all perfections, including existence. This concept lies at the heart of the ontological argument (see entry on ontological arguments). Although in the ontological argument the perfect being is determined to exist through its own concept, in fact nothing can be determined to exist in this manner; one has to begin with existence. In short, the cosmological argument presupposes the cogency of the ontological argument. But since the ontological argument is defective for the above (and other) reason, the cosmological argument that depends on or invokes it likewise must be defective (Critique B634).

Kant’s contention that the necessity found in “necessary being” is logical necessity was common up through the 1960s. J.J.C. Smart wrote,

And by “a necessary being” the cosmological argument means “a logically necessary being”, i.e., “a being whose non-existence is inconceivable in the sort of way that a triangle’s having four sides is inconceivable”.… Now since “necessary” is a word which applies primarily to propositions, we shall have to interpret “God is a necessary being” as “The proposition ‘God exists’ is logically necessary”. (in Flew and MacIntyre 1955: 38; in a later work Smart (Smart and Haldane 1996: 41–47) broadened his notion of necessity.)

Many recent discussions of the cosmological argument, both supporting and critiquing it, interpret the notion of a necessary being as a being that cannot not exist (O’Connor 2008: 78, 2013: 38). For example, Gale-Pruss contend that speaking about necessary beings does not differ from speaking of the necessity of propositions (see section 5). As such, as Plantinga notes, if a necessary being is possible, it exists (God, Freedom and Evil, 1967: 110). It is a being that exists in all possible worlds. The only question that remains is whether God’s existence is possible. This notion is similar to, if not a modernization of, Aquinas’s contention that God’s essence is to exist. Aquinas attempts to avoid the accusation that this invokes the ontological argument on the grounds that we do not have an adequate concept of God’s essence (ST I,q.2,a.1). However, if we understand “necessary being” in this sense, we can dispose of the cosmological argument as irrelevant; what is needed rather is an argument to establish that God’s existence is possible, for if it is possible that it is necessary that God exists, then God exists (by Axiom S5).

But this need not be the sense in which “necessary being” is understood in the cosmological argument. A more adequate notion of necessary being is that the necessity is metaphysical or factual. A necessary being is one that if it exists, it neither came into existence nor can cease to exist, and correspondingly, if it does not exist, it cannot come into existence (Reichenbach 1972: 117–20). If it exists, it eternally maintains its own existence; it is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. So understood, the cosmological argument does not rely on notions central to the ontological argument. Rather, instead of being superfluous, the cosmological argument, if sound, gives us reason to think that the necessary being exists rather than not.

Mackie replies that if God has metaphysical necessity, God’s existence is logically contingent, such that some reason is required for God’s own existence (Mackie 1982: 84). That is, if God necessarily exists in the sense that if he exists, he exists in all possible worlds, it remains logically possible that God does not exist in any (and all) possible worlds. Hence, God, as Swinburne notes (2004: 79, 148) is a logically contingent being, and so could have not-existed. Why, then, does God exist? The PSR can be applied to the necessary being.

The theist responds that the PSR does not address logical contingency but metaphysical contingency. One is not required to find a reason for what is not metaphysically contingent. It is not that the necessary being is self-explanatory; rather, a demand for explaining its existence is inappropriate. Hence, the theist concludes, Hawking’s question “Who created God?” (Hawking 1988: 174) is out of place (Davis 1997). We will return to this discussion in section 8.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/#Obje4ProbConcNeceBein
 

Whiskeyjack

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I know we have touched on this before but the agument for a necessary being is tenuous:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/#Obje4ProbConcNeceBein

From the second link in my post above:

In this account of the matter, “civilization” and “evidence” go together and dictate our chief responsibility as readers—which is, Empson says, “to use our judgment about the characters.” It is also the obligation of the characters in the story, and the fact that they perform it differently is what gives the plot its energy: The loyalist Abdiel, Empson observes, tells Satan and his rebel followers “that God should be obeyed because he is good, and they deny that he is good,” and as far as Empson is concerned, they have good reason to do so. Actually the scene Empson is remembering is somewhat more complex. When Abdiel rises, “Among the faithless, faithful only he” (V, 897), what he says is not that God is good (which would imply a conclusion reached by submitting God’s actions to the judgment of independent criteria). Rather he says that God is God, which implies that even to put God to such an evidentiary test would be a category mistake—how can you give a grade to the agent whose person defines and embodies value?—that would constitute the gravest of sins, whether one calls it impiety (“Cease . . . this impious rage”), self-worship, or simply pride.

What Abdiel says is: “Shalt thou give law to God, shalt thou dispute / With him the points of liberty, who made / Thee what thou art?” (V, 822–24a) Earlier Satan had justified his rebellion by invoking freedom and liberty; Abdiel now points out that these terms have no weight when the agent from whom you would be free made and sustains you. Satan in turn finds this argument preposterous and replies to it with a classic statement of rational empiricism:

That we were form’d . . . say’st thou?
. . . strange point and new!
Doctrine which we would know whence learnt: who saw
When this creation was? remember’st thou
Thy making, while the Maker gave thee being?
We know no time when we were not as now;
Know none before us, self-begot, self-rais’d.

[/ (V, 853, 855–60) /]

This is the philosophy of the man from Missouri: Show me, seeing is believing, and since no one, including you, has seen the moment of his creation, I don’t believe in it. There is nothing in the present scene or in my experience that leads me inescapably to the conclusion you urge. Where did you ever get this absurd notion? What’s your proof? (“Doctrine which we would know whence learnt?”) I must have made myself.

Satan’s way of thinking is contrasted directly in the poem with Adam’s. Recalling the moment not of his creation, but just after his creation, Adam reports “Myself I . . . perused . . . limb by limb” and found that I could speak and name, “But who I was, or where, or from what cause / Knew not” (VIII, 267, 270–71). Like Satan, Adam knows no time before he was what he now is, but he gives a quite different answer to the question he immediately poses: “How came I thus, how here? / Not of myself, by some great maker then / In goodness and in power preeminent” (VIII, 277b-79). The goodness and power for which Satan seeks independent evidence is here assumed by Adam; and once the assumption is in place it generates a program for action and a life-project: “How may I know him, how adore, / From whom I have that thus I move and live?” (VIII, 280–1)

It might seem that in presenting these two moments in Paradise Lost, I am placing in opposition two ways of knowing, one by evidence and reason, the other by faith. But in fact on the level of epistemology both are the same. Satan and Adam begin alike from a point of ignorance—they know nothing prior to (the precise word is “before”) the perspective they currently occupy; and the direction each then takes from this acknowledged limitation follows with equal logic or illogic. Adam reasons, since I don’t remember how I got here, I must have been made by someone. Satan reasons, since I don’t know how I got here, I must have made myself, or as we might say today, I must have just emerged from the primeval slime.

In neither case does the conclusion follow necessarily from the observed fact of imperfect knowledge. In both cases something is missing, a first premise, and in both cases reasoning can’t get started until a first premise is put in place. What’s more, since the first premise is what is missing, it cannot be derived from anything in the visible scene; it is what must be imported—on no evidentiary basis whatsoever—so that the visible scene, the things of this world, can acquire the meaning and significance they will now have. There is no opposition here between knowledge by reason and knowledge by faith because Satan and Adam are committed to both simultaneously. Each performs an act of faith—the one in God and the other in materialism—and then each begins to reason in ways dictated by the content of his faith.

Which brings us back to our debate in the Theology thread, with the materialist and the theist positions both requiring a leap of faith. I simply find Adam's first principle and the reasoning that flows from it to be much more convincing than Satan's (It also squares with several transcendent experiences I've had, while the materialist position doesn't.)
 

Legacy

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I believe Sean Spicer clarified Trump's position when he said:

"He's a pro-life president; he wants to stand up for all Americans, including the unborn."

There are a few follow-up questions that this phrasing raises.
 

ulukinatme

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I'm a little torn here. My Catholic side supports Pro-Life mostly, but given the fact there's over 100,000 kids that are waiting for foster care in the US today, and there's plenty of people that have too many kids or can't support the ones they have (I have a few in my extended family...by marriage), I'm not entirely sure banning all abortions is viable. I definitely don't feel like 22 weeks is a good cut off, the point of no return needs to be far sooner. At 6-7 weeks there's a heart beat and to me that's life. By then most women know they're not just late for a period anymore, something else is going on. After 7 weeks or so I'd say if you willingly made the choice to engage in coitus, you made a choice to create life and that life should be protected.
 
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Cackalacky

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From the second link in my post above:



Which brings us back to our debate in the Theology thread, with the materialist and the theist positions both requiring a leap of faith. I simply find Adam's first principle and the reasoning that flows from it to be much more convincing than Satan's (It also squares with several transcendent experiences I've had, while the materialist position doesn't.)

And I still find that assuming the existence of Satan/God is one initial premise to far. I feel i can logically deny the existence of the Christian gods much in the same manner that Christians deny all other of the 4300+ gods currently worshiped. I went through this topic with the local father at the church we have been attending and it is a work in progress. I firmly acknowledge that this position has been one that has evolved and continues to evolve. He has been very kind in dealing wth me and my doubts.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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I'm a little torn here. My Catholic side supports Pro-Life mostly, but given the fact there's over 100,000 kids that are waiting for foster care in the US today, and there's plenty of people that have too many kids or can't support the ones they have (I have a few in my extended family...by marriage), I'm not entirely sure banning all abortions is viable.

Slave-holders made the same sort of arguments against abolition. "Practicality" is never an acceptable justification for an intrinsically evil act.

But since you brought it up, there are tens of thousands of American couples who go abroad to adopt every year because American law has made it so painfully difficult to adopt domestically; and there are many more (by an order of magnitude) infertile couples who desperately want to welcome such children into their homes, but do not have the means to adopt internationally. Put another way, our current adoption system is seriously f*cked up, but that's not an argument for killing American babies; it's an argument for reforming the system. There are more than enough loving households for those currently in foster care.
 

Whiskeyjack

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And I still find that assuming the existence of Satan/God is one initial premise to far. I feel i can logically deny the existence of the Christian gods much in the same manner that Christians deny all other of the 4300+ gods currently worshiped. I went through this topic with the local father at the church we have been attending and it is a work in progress. I firmly ackonwledgenthat this position he been on that has evolved and continues to evolve. He has been very kind in dealing wth me and my doubts.

You ought to read Augustine's City of God. He makes the case for Christianity against the dominant Roman paganism of his day. Very compellingly argues that Christianity isn't just another product in the "religion" aisle (which is another liberal doctrine which is slowly destroying the concept of the Common Good in this country, but I digress...)

Edit: Following on from the above, read Aquinas, too. No other religion has produced such staggering works of intellectual genius, timeless art, music, architecture... the pinnacles of Western Civilization are all deeply Christian. That's not a coincidence.
 
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Cackalacky

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Slave-holders made the same sort of arguments against abolition. "Practicality" is never an acceptable justification for an intrinsically evil act.

But since you brought it up, there are tens of thousands of American couples who go abroad to adopt every year because American law has made it so painfully difficult to adopt domestically; and there are many more (by an order of magnitude) infertile couples who desperately want to welcome such children into their homes, but do not have the means to adopt internationally. Put another way, our current adoption system is seriously f*cked up, but that's not an argument for killing American babies; it's an argument for reforming the system. There are more than enough loving households for those currently in foster care.

My best friend has tried to adopt for three years now. They were even so far along on one possible adoption that they had everything ready for a baby that was due two weeks before Christmas and the mother pulled out the morning before the baby was due. They were also denied another child on the grounds that the mother wanted the baby to go to a Christian household and the fact the this couple were Catholics was a negative and not good enough for her child. Crazy.
 
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Cackalacky

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You ought to read Augustine's City of God. He makes the case for Christianity against the dominant Roman paganism of his day. Very compellingly argues that Christianity isn't just another product in the "religion" aisle (which is another liberal doctrine which is slowly destroying the concept of the Common Good in this country, but I digress...)

Edit: Following on from the above, read Aquinas, too. No other religion has produced such staggering works of intellectual genius, timeless art, music, architecture... the pinnacles of Western Civilization are all deeply Christian. That's not a coincidence.

Will do. :). Always respect your recommendations.
 

Whiskeyjack

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My best friend has tried to adopt for three years now. They were even so far along on one possible adoption that they had everything ready for a baby that was due two weeks before Christmas and the mother pulled out the morning before the baby was due. They were also denied another child on the groundsnthat the mother wanted the baby to go to anChristian household and the fact the this couple were Catholocsnwas a negative and not good enough for her child. Crazy.

Most agencies won't allow a Caucasian couple to adopt an African-American baby, either. So they relegate the poor kid to continue bouncing around between foster homes, due to concerns about "fit". It's evil.
 

Quinntastic

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Okay, I have several counter-arguments to several different posters who have seen fit to jump at me for my previous sentiments. So, in no particular order:

1.) For those saying that they would be happy to "de-fund" Planned Parenthood in favor of more social programs to support low income families. a.) Why should the government "de-fund" Planned Parenthood? Because abortions? For one, the Hyde Amendment already stipulates that absolutely no federal monies that PP receives may be used to fund an abortion. That's well-established. So we already know that the funding PP gets is not being used for abortions. It's being used for STI screenings, birth control, PAP smears (to catch CERVICAL CANCER early on) and mammograms (to catch BREAST CANCER early on). Also, "de-fund" is a misnomer. What the bill is actually looking to do is repeal the ACA which would effectively cut funding to PP. b.) Colorado made birth control free to all of their low-income women in their state. The result? Teen pregnancy rates dropped by 40%, abortion rate dropped by 42%, and the taxpayers saved at least $49 million in birth-related Medicaid costs. So, tell me again why we should be "de-funding" PP and not getting birth control to women who want/need it?

2.) For those saying that life starts at conception/life starts at "x" weeks/toddlers aren't able to be self-sufficient and therefore somehow an argument as to why abortions should be illegal. 92% of abortions performed are performed before 13 weeks gestation. At this stage, the fetus is the size of a pea pod, and weighs 1 ounce. Nowhere near being able survive outside of the womb. Notice I did not say "being able to survive". Because I realize that toddlers couldn't be dropped into the middle of a jungle and survive. That's not what it means. But a toddler can very much feed itself, breathe oxygen in and out of its lungs without help, react to stimuli, adapt to its environment, and grow/develop. It would probably be eaten by a bigger predator because they're young and relatively weak, but the basic tenets are there and don't think for a minute that I don't know that you are making ludicrous arguments as a way to deflect. You absolutely know it's not the same argument.

3.) To those saying that those going to PP would be those covered under Medicaid also, so "what does it matter?" - The medicaid ceiling for "low income" is surprisingly low. Like, poverty level "low". There are MILLIONS of women who fall somewhere above poverty level and still below the point of being able to completely foot their own bill for contraception (which is, as you may NOT know, NOT covered by several insurances if ACA is repealed, as it is considered 'elective' and 'unnecessary'). Also, the ACA changed the medicaid rules to include more families under the Medicaid umbrella by allowing them to go by their Modified Adjusted Gross Income, instead of their gross wages. So if the ACA is repealed, so does that expansion for low income families that a previous poster was just saying they supported. Assuming a woman and her one baby (a family of two), the federal maximum MAGI is approximately $22,000/yr (approximately $10.50/hr) Anything more than that and you make "too much" to get Medicaid. This is a LOT of people: Women who are underemployed, one parent households making more than minimum wage but less than $11/hr, women who graduated with a ton of student loan debt because tuition rates continue to skyrocket way past rates of inflation, etc. Who covers the millions of women who aren't middle class but make more than poverty wages? Hint: Planned Parenthood

4.) This would be a very different conversation we were having if it were female congresspeople making decisions on whether or not men are able to have vasectomies. And before you all hyperventilate and start pounding on your keyboard about how it's 'not the same' - I KNOW IT'S NOT THE SAME. Men aren't able to bear children, so no analogy I could EVER make will be "the same". But it's comparable. So I'm going to make two comparable analogies to try to get you guys to have some semblance of empathy here to something you all have no idea what it's like to endure. So let's just pretend for a minute and imagine that a congress, made up predominantly of women, were getting to make decisions that said, "All men over 14 have to have mandatory vasectomies because reasons". Or "No man under 50 is allowed to have a vasectomy for any reason because they can't decide for themselves whether or not they can have children". Your argument (other than it's not the "SAME") is that it would be wrong for the government to be able to tell you what you can and can't do with your body. How about the government telling men they couldn't have their mandatory vasectomies reversed until they could prove they had $150,000 sitting in a trust for any possible baby that would be born as a result of the sex they were going to have? After all - if they don't want the possible repercussions of a baby, they shouldn't be having sex in the first place either, right?.

I know that it seems ridiculous to you for me to make those points. And for the last time, NOT THE SAME - I get it!. But it gives you a SLIGHT idea of how it feels to be the gender that OTHER PEOPLE get to tell you what you can and can't do with your own body and reproductive organs.
 
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Quinntastic

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The people that don't want a bunch of babies killed are the ones that need to have some empathy lol.

If that is literally the only thing you guys are going to take away from my post, then my even being here is a waste of all of our time.
 

wizards8507

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Okay, I have several counter-arguments to several different posters who have seen fit to jump at me for my previous sentiments. So, in no particular order:

1.) For those saying that they would be happy to "de-fund" Planned Parenthood in favor of more social programs to support low income families. a.) Why should the government "de-fund" Planned Parenthood? Because abortions? For one, the Hyde Amendment already stipulates that absolutely no federal monies that PP receives may be used to fund an abortion. That's well-established. So we already know that the funding PP gets is not being used for abortions. It's being used for STI screenings, birth control, PAP smears (to catch CERVICAL CANCER early on) and mammograms (to catch BREAST CANCER early on). Also, "de-fund" is a misnomer. What the bill is actually looking to do is repeal the ACA which would effectively cut funding to PP. b.) Colorado made birth control free to all of their low-income women in their state. The result? Teen pregnancy rates dropped by 40%, abortion rate dropped by 42%, and the taxpayers saved at least $49 million in birth-related Medicaid costs. So, tell me again why we should be "de-funding" PP and not getting birth control to women who want/need it?

2.) For those saying that life starts at conception/life starts at "x" weeks/toddlers aren't able to be self-sufficient and therefore somehow an argument as to why abortions should be illegal. 92% of abortions performed are performed before 13 weeks gestation. At this stage, the fetus is the size of a pea pod, and weighs 1 ounce. Nowhere near being able survive outside of the womb. Notice I did not say "being able to survive". Because I realize that toddlers couldn't be dropped into the middle of a jungle and survive. That's not what it means. But a toddler can very much feed itself, breathe oxygen in and out of its lungs without help, react to stimuli, adapt to its environment, and grow/develop. It would probably be eaten by a bigger predator because they're young and relatively weak, but the basic tenets are there and don't think for a minute that I don't know that you are making ludicrous arguments as a way to deflect. You absolutely know it's not the same argument.

3.) To those saying that those going to PP would be those covered under Medicaid also, so "what does it matter?" - The medicaid ceiling for "low income" is surprisingly low. Like, poverty level "low". There are MILLIONS of women who fall somewhere above poverty level and still below the point of being able to completely foot their own bill for contraception (which is, as you may NOT know, NOT covered by several insurances if ACA is repealed, as it is considered 'elective' and 'unnecessary'). Also, the ACA changed the medicaid rules to include more families under the Medicaid umbrella by allowing them to go by their Modified Adjusted Gross Income, instead of their gross wages. So if the ACA is repealed, so does that expansion for low income families that a previous poster was just saying they supported. Assuming a woman and her one baby (a family of two), the federal maximum MAGI is approximately $22,000/yr (approximately $10.50/hr) Anything more than that and you make "too much" to get Medicaid. This is a LOT of people: Women who are underemployed, one parent households making more than minimum wage but less than $11/hr, women who graduated with a ton of student loan debt because tuition rates continue to skyrocket way past rates of inflation, etc. Who covers the millions of women who aren't middle class but make more than poverty wages? Hint: Planned Parenthood

4.) This would be a very different conversation we were having if it were female congresspeople making decisions on whether or not men are able to have vasectomies. And before you all hyperventilate and start pounding on your keyboard about how it's 'not the same' - I KNOW IT'S NOT THE SAME. Men aren't able to bear children, so no analogy I could EVER make will be "the same". But it's comparable. So I'm going to make two comparable analogies to try to get you guys to have some semblance of empathy here to something you all have no idea what it's like to endure. So let's just pretend for a minute and imagine that a congress, made up predominantly of women, were getting to make decisions that said, "All men over 14 have to have mandatory vasectomies because reasons". Or "No man under 50 is allowed to have a vasectomy for any reason because they can't decide for themselves whether or not they can have children". Your argument (other than it's not the "SAME") is that it would be wrong for the government to be able to tell you what you can and can't do with your body. How about the government telling men they couldn't have their mandatory vasectomies reversed until they could prove they had $150,000 sitting in a trust for any possible baby that would be born as a result of the sex they were going to have? After all - if they don't want the possible repercussions of a baby, they shouldn't be having sex in the first place either, right?.

I know that it seems ridiculous to you for me to make those points. And for the last time, NOT THE SAME - I get it!. But it gives you a SLIGHT idea of how it feels to be the gender that OTHER PEOPLE get to tell you what you can and can't do with your own body and reproductive organs.

Ho lee chit. For the millionth time, nobody cares what you do with your reproductive organs. Just don't make anyone else pay for it. If you want to go get a hysterectomy, which would be the proper analogy, nobody would want to stop you.

An abortion is not an act on your reproductive organizations, it's an act on the baby inside you. My wife has had two incomplete miscarriages. She had to go through the equivalent of an abortion procedure because the already-dead baby was stuck inside her. It's a horrifying procedure and the vagina has very little to do with it.

I suggest you do some more research about Planned Parenthood. They're an abortion mill, period. At best, they provide REFERRALS for women to get health care at other clinics and count them in their statistics as services rendered other than abortion. They do almost none of that stuff themselves. No mammography, no prenatal care. Just STD testing and abortions.
 
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Cackalacky

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Ho lee chit. For the millionth time, nobody cares what you do with your reproductive organs. Just don't make anyone else pay for it. If you want to go get a hysterectomy, which would be the proper analogy, nobody would want to stop you.

An abortion is not an act on your reproductive organizations, it's an act on the baby inside you. My wife has had two incomplete miscarriages. She had to go through the equivalent of an abortion procedure because the already-dead baby was stuck inside her. It's a horrifying procedure and the vagina has very little to do with it.

I suggest you do some more research about Planned Parenthood. They're an abortion mill, period. At best, they provide REFERRALS for women to get health care at other clinics and count them in their statistics as services rendered other than abortion. They do almost none of that stuff themselves. No mammography, no prenatal care. Just STD testing and abortions.

As prenatal vitamins are available over the counter and mamagrophay equipment is specialized and expensive i understand why PP doesnt offer those services. But I am curious if you have evidence to support just the STD and abortion statement. I truly want to inderstand what PP actually does because the left says one thing and you are saying the exact opposite and if i am missing some key info i would love to have it. If the Hyde Amendment prevents federal money from being used then how is PP using gov money to provide a service which it says it doesnt provide? After checking, my local PP offers these services:

Abortion Referral
Birth Control
General Health Care
HIV Testing
LGBT Services
Men's Health Care
Morning-After Pill (Emergency Contraception)
Pregnancy Testing & Services
STD Testing, Treatment & Vaccines
Women's Health Care

Here is what is shown as under Womens Health Services:

checkups when you have a reproductive/sexual health problem
breast exams
cervical cancer screening
colposcopy
fibroids evaluation
mammogram referrals
Pap test
routine physicals for women age 13 and older
urinary tract infections – testing and treatment
vaginal infections – testing and treatment
Other services we may provide include help with irregular periods or no periods, painful periods, painful sex, bleeding between periods, menstrual problems (premenstrual syndrome) or even a lost tampon.
- See more at: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/h...3859-90860/womens-health#sthash.nxHnkzXX.dpuf
 
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wizards8507

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woolybug25

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Wiz, honest question here. What's your goal here? The reason I ask, is because hypothetically, if someone could prove to you that 100% of the locations provided 100% of those services, it wouldn't change a damn thing for you. You would still want them defunded and you would still be against their existence.

Just seems like an intellectually dishonest debate on your end.
 
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Cackalacky

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So the argument is that since PP can theoretically mix its pots of federal money therefore all money to PP has the potential to fund an abortion? I dont think that analogy seems accurate. Hmmmm that seems simple enough to fix without defunding if true though. And correct me if am wrong but we are talking Medicaid right? Like low income women who need an abortion cant get one in the exception of rape/incest or the threatened life of the mother from Medicaid funds?

Do you have any other evidence for the documented abuse of the maternal health claim?
 
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NorthDakota

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I think there is one logical solutions to get conservative people on board with Planned Parenthood.

They can either receive Federal funds or they can provide abortions. They cannot do both. After all, they are so important to low income women! They should be willing to give up "3%" of their services rendered in order to ensure they can get Federal money help the poors minorities they so desperately seek to help.
 

Quinntastic

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Wiz, I would LOVE to see your peer reviewed article link that shows PP offers only abortion/abortion referral services. Because from my own personal experience with PP, I was a poor college student who was straight hemorrhaging for a month straight and they offered me birth control and a PAP smear for like $20. Every other woman who was there with me that day was having the same set of services. I can count at least 25 women that I PERSONALLY know who all used PP to get their contraception and yearly PAP smear exam before the ACA was enacted. One of those women actually had her pre cancerous cervical tissue found before it could become cervical cancer because of that PAP smear that you say PP doesn't actually provide.

So tell me again how you know they are nothing but an abortion mill??
 

wizards8507

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Wiz, honest question here. What's your goal here? The reason I ask, is because hypothetically, if someone could prove to you that 100% of the locations provided 100% of those services, it wouldn't change a damn thing for you. You would still want them defunded and you would still be against their existence.

Just seems like an intellectually dishonest debate on your end.
It's because I'm such a compromising and generous guy looking to find middle ground. Obviously my ideal would be zero funding and zero abortions but in the spirit of compromise I think NorthDakota's suggestion of zero abortions OR zero funding would be perfectly resonable.

Split PP into two entities. One of them provides only abortions and receives zero federal dollars. Another provides the services that Quinntastic referenced and receives funding. The waters are un-muddied so everyone can talk about the relative merits of both with transparency. Step in the right direction.
 

NorthDakota

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Wiz, I would LOVE to see your peer reviewed article link that shows PP offers only abortion/abortion referral services. Because from my own personal experience with PP, I was a poor college student who was straight hemorrhaging for a month straight and they offered me birth control and a PAP smear for like $20. Every other woman who was there with me that day was having the same set of services. I can count at least 25 women that I PERSONALLY know who all used PP to get their contraception and yearly PAP smear exam before the ACA was enacted. One of those women actually had her pre cancerous cervical tissue found before it could become cervical cancer because of that PAP smear that you say PP doesn't actually provide.

So tell me again how you know they are nothing but an abortion mill??

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/who-we-are/planned-parenthood-at-a-glance

This link is really fun. So PP brags about the approximate number of times they provide each service....but when they get to babykilling, they provide the standard "3%" lol. So you provide 270,000 pap tests, and 300,000 boob exams, but only tell us 3% of what you do is killing a baby. lol clowns.
 

Bluto

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That's one of the first principles of liberalism, but it's not true. God, or something very much like Him, is logically necessary for the world we find ourselves. And while reason alone is admittedly insufficient to prove the personal God of Christianity, there is still plenty of compelling evidence in its favor, like the witness of the saints over the last 2,000 years.

Which brings me back to my old argument that liberalism is itself a religion, with doctrinaire first principles that the vast majority of Americans accept reflexively, and which is utterly at odds with Christianity (long read, but well worth your time).

What confuses me is that even in liberal societies, everyone agrees that chattel slavery and the Holocaust are the two great moral calamities of recent history. The way those two events still press on us to this day only makes sense if objective moral truth exists, and those events violated that law on a staggering scale.

Orthodox Christianity sees slavery, genocide and abortion as the same thing-- the large-scale dehumanization, commoditization and brutalization of a vulnerable minority-- and condemns all of it. While Liberalism tries to justify the third with an utterly incoherent argument about "personhood" and "individual autonomy" which completely contradicts its condemnation of the former two.

Lots of things that liberals take for granted are unsustainable without Christian moral norms. We're going to have to pick one or the other soon.

Just pulled up this quote because it's an example of one of the many references to "Christianity". I'm assuming you are referring to pre reformation Christianity ie Catholicism. Is that correct?
 
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