Fatal shooting Charleston SC

phgreek

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this is laughable horseshit.

You don't even want a discussion, you want to be disingenuous. Some idiot made a button, and you pin it on... what?

What point are you even making?

You're an interloper and a known racist... keep on flying your flag, dude.

You can hate 'em because he's a Bama fan...but the rest...SMH.

Known Racist? WHAT...Is there some sort of star chamber group on here where you read selected microaggressive passages to a tribunal who responds by automatically playing the video of the little kid...THATS RACIST!

This is the guy that started a thread to try and have a thoughtful conversation about Race months ago...so I'm throwing the BULLSHIT flag on your Racist claim.
 

IrishLax

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What's annoying about that vandalism is that pretty much every historical figure 19th century and earlier was a "racist" by today's standards. Heck, some of the stuff said by Abraham-freaking-Lincoln would be viewed as hella racist if said today:

As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

That's a real quote by Lincoln. Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, etc. were all "racist"... everyone is a product of their time and culture.
 

BGIF

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Two monuments have been vandalized with spray paint. One is a Confederate memorial in White Point Gardens and the other is the John C. Calhoun statue in Marion Square. Perp of the memorial was identified as a person from D. C. ( I believe). I guess there will always be a few people to ruin a good thing.


charleston-confederate-memorial-graffiti-photo-by-michael-collins-062120151.jpg

This is a statue for the Confederate Defenders of Charleston. The statue is located at the tip of the peninsula closest to Ft. Sumter where cannons were formerly located to protect the harbor.

CIMSRKZWIAAJWTN.jpg

Calhoun Statue


When I first saw this, the though hit me that this could be the work of some redneck provocateur. On closer look, I noticed the comma between Calhoun and racist.
 

Irish#1

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I guess I may be in a minority. I see the Confederate flag and the monuments not as a snub to blacks or as a racist statement, but more of a reminder on how far we've come.

Lax is correct, we've had our share of honored statesmen that were racist. Should we wipe out all reminders of Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson?
 

IrishJayhawk

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I guess I may be in a minority. I see the Confederate flag and the monuments not as a snub to blacks or as a racist statement, but more of a reminder on how far we've come.

Lax is correct, we've had our share of honored statesmen that were racist. Should we wipe out all reminders of Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson?

I think there's a difference between being products of their time and being a general in the army that was fighting to keep slaves.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "Persecution and the Black Church":

Now that a few days have passed, it’s worth saying something about the much-discussed initial response to the massacre at Charleston’s Emanuel A.M.E Church, in which a scattering of Republicans and Fox News personalities suggested that this was anti-religious violence, an anti-Christian attack, rather than the white supremacist violence (shaped by whatever demons occupy the shooter’s mind) that it quickly proved to be.

That initial response was a characteristically partisan mistake, in the sense that it reached for a narrative familiar to American conservatives (the persecution of Christians overseas, the growing suspicion of traditional forms of Christian faith at home) in a situation when the facts fit more closely with certain liberal priors (about the persistence of racist ideas, in particular) instead. But what’s interesting is that the reach wasn’t entirely mistaken: In grasping for their own preferred narrative, those conservatives brushed up against a somewhat different but immensely important truth about black Christianity in the United States.

By this I mean that while the Charleston massacre wasn’t primarily motivated by the hatred of Christianity or religious faith, it still was in some sense — a historically important sense — an anti-religious attack. The victims and the institution were not randomly chosen from among all the possible places where black people might be found; the killer deliberately selected a famous house of prayer, deliberately murdered a group of people gathered there for religious reasons. And in so choosing, he associated himself with a distinctive tradition of religious persecution that’s old as white supremacism itself.

African-American Christianity hasn’t been persecuted in the United States in the way that, say, minority religions are currently being persecuted by the Islamic State; the martyrdom of black Christians hasn’t taken the form of being explicitly asked to abjure Jesus Christ or die. But because the religion of the slaves and their descendants has been crucial to black Americans’ resistance, their long campaign for equality before the law, it has also been a place where the weight of oppression has been particularly heavily applied. Not only during the civil rights era’s church burning and bombings but long before, the quest to subjugate black people has logically required targeting their churches, their religious institutions, their ability to freely practice Christian faith. The faith of black people is not the thing that white supremacists hate most about them, but it is a thing that white supremacists consistently tried to break and weaken, gentle and diminish, in order that white supremacy might be sustained.

This was true for practical and political reasons, but also deeper cultural and theological ones. The black church hasn’t just been a locus of black civic life and ultimately political organization; it’s also been one of the major intellectual conduits, from the age of abolition to the era of civil rights, through which black Americans have pressed their moral claim on white America. By its mere existence, to say nothing of its flourishing, black Christianity has essentially called the bluff of white American Christians: We embrace the same religion; now vindicate your profession of faith and embrace us as your brothers. This was Martin Luther King’s message, most famously, but it wasn’t his alone, and long before the civil rights era white supremacists seemed to understand its power, and recognize that it was a kind of dagger pointing at the heart of their own racial ideology.

In the 1950s and 1960s, that dagger finally went home. But for decades and centuries before that, slaveholders and segregationists worked to turn it aside – to make their attempted marriage of white supremacism and gospel faith easier to live with, less self-contradictory on its face. Some of that work was intellectual, the work of constructing elaborate scriptural justifications for racial hierarchy. But a lot of it was structural and social, designed to prevent black Christians from presenting as equal members of the two races’ common faith. Hence the antebellum impulse (frustrated by underground slave Christianity, which in turn faced explicit persecution) to exert absolute control over the religion of the enslaved, so that Africans might be good Christians but only on the master’s terms. Hence the post-Civil War division of many Protestant confessions along racial line, often precipitated by black leaders but in reaction to a segregation of religious services and leadership that was designed to effectively deny the fullness of Christian brotherhood to African-Americans. And hence, finally, the spasm of violence directed against the churches and ministers whose Christian witness (and Christian arguments) ultimately helped bury Jim Crow.

Those eras, that persecution, is mercifully over; one Confederacy-worshiping gunman cannot bring it back. But its legacy has not been fully assimilated (for fairly obvious reasons) into the memory of white Christians. Just one example: In conversations about the waning influence of institutional religion in the United States, I’ve often heard people make comments to the effect of, “well, of course, the church in America has never really known persecution.” The person talking is usually a white Protestant — Catholics, whatever our other blind spots, have our own reasons not to make this particular mistake — and of course the comment is true as applied to mainstream conservative white Protestantism. But it’s false as applied to “the church in America” in its historical fullness: America already has been the site of a sustained exercise in persecution, albeit a persecution of a very distinctive and peculiar kind, and nothing that potentially threatens conservative Christians in our arguably-secularizing, arguably de-Christianizing America (marginalization, loss of influence, even fines and discrimination over certain issues) is likely to impose the kind of burdens on believers that the black church, for centuries, had to bear.

And the memory of those burdens, that persecution, probably helps explain why today you don’t see quite as much anxiety about the potential marginalization of conservative Christianity among African-American Christians as you do among white Christians, even when their theological commitments are similar. There’s concern, certainly, but there just isn’t the same sense of dispossession, the same fear of the unknown, because far greater dispossession and far darker fears have defined the experience of black Christianity in this country going back hundreds of years.

Which means that for white Christians facing whatever the American future holds, a debate like the one that’s happening around the Charleston massacre and Confederate flag right now is actually potentially very significant. It hints, at least, at a kind of crossroads for people, white conservative Christians, who thought of themselves as the core of America but who feel like they’re becoming more peripheral to the society that we’re becoming or moving toward.

On the one hand, that peripheral feeling could lead, as it sometimes has in the Obama era, to a kind of emergent white identity politics, a doubling down on whiteness-as-Americanness that marinates in its own dispossessed self-pity, a nationwide version of the Dixie ressentiment that, more than explicit racism, explains the enduring appeal of the stars-and-bars.

On the other, the newfound feeling of being peripheral could encourage healing and outreach across the lines that have divided white Christians from their brethren in the past. This is what the Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore has in mind, I think, in his much-cited piece urging Christians to take down the Confederate battle flag. The point of doing so is not to make some sort of concession to political correctness or liberal pressure; it’s to extend a hand to the people whose ancestors were actually victimized, enslaved, and yes, persecuted as Christians by the culture and the civilization that went to war under that flag.

“White Christians,” Moore writes, “let’s listen to our African-American brothers and sisters. Let’s care not just about our own history, but also about our shared history with them. In Christ, we were slaves in Egypt—and as part of the Body of Christ we were all slaves too in Mississippi.”

This strikes me as a powerful message — and a good enough reason for white southern Christians, whatever the understandable pull of ancestry and memory, to finally take down the flag.

But then what happens to Christianity in America during and beyond its current period of decline may also depend on whether white Christians heed those words in a wider, more comprehensive fashion. They — we — need to find a way not only to recognize the historical persecution of black Christianity in this country, but to enfold its story into a fuller narrative, a fuller American history, a new iconography of faith: One that can be shared by future believers across the lines of race, in whatever America awaits.
 
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GoIrish41

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I guess I may be in a minority. I see the Confederate flag and the monuments not as a snub to blacks or as a racist statement, but more of a reminder on how far we've come.

Lax is correct, we've had our share of honored statesmen that were racist. Should we wipe out all reminders of Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson?

I don't know if I believe that the confederate flag and the monuments suggest progress. The statues always depict brave, determined and virtuous men in a heroic poses. Seems more like glorifying the past than saying anything about the present. Most folks I've seen who fly the confederate flag are rednecks who also have gun racks in the backs of their pickup trucks and wear a lot of camaflague clothing and John Deere hats.
 

IrishLax

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I think there's a difference between being products of their time and being a general in the army that was fighting to keep slaves.

Disagree. I think it's fair to hate the Confederacy for what it stood for and want to destroy symbols of that era, I don't think it's fair at all to make the classification you just made.

Robert E. Lee is the best illustration... he almost took command of the Union forces, but ultimately had to side with his family and home state. For just about every general in that war, what side they ended up on had almost nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with geography. From New York? You were in the Union forces. From Georgia? You were on the other side.

With the exception of Robert Gould Shaw and a couple of the most ardent abolitionists nobody gave a fuck about black people during the civil war. And even the most progressive and tolerant minds on the "good" side were still racist as all hell. Even Shaw -- who epitomizes an American hero if there ever is someone -- didn't believe "Negros" were smart enough and disciplined enough for combat until he spent copious amounts of time with his all black regiment.

It's just weird as hell to me seeing people get revisionist now saying "this side was for evil and slavery, and that side was for good and civil rights." Like if Robert E. Lee has decided he wanted to kill his own family that would've somehow made him more noble than fighting for his home and loved ones.
 

tussin

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I don't know if I believe that the confederate flag and the monuments suggest progress. The statues always depict brave, determined and virtuous men in a heroic poses. Seems more like glorifying the past than saying anything about the present. Most folks I've seen who fly the confederate flag are rednecks who also have gun racks in the backs of their pickup trucks and wear a lot of camaflague clothing and John Deere hats.

Generally agree with your stance on this issue, but I'm not sure how this stereotype applies to anything.
 
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Cackalacky

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When I first saw this, the though hit me that this could be the work of some redneck provocateur. On closer look, I noticed the comma between Calhoun and racist.
Not much gets by you sir. LOL
 

GoIrish41

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Generally agree with your stance on this issue, but I'm not sure how this stereotype applies to anything.

Perhaps a poor way of saying that these are not the type of people who invest a lot of deep thought into the political or social rationale of their choice to honor their heritage or care much about if their decision is going to offend anyone else.
 

ACamp1900

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Disagree. I think it's fair to hate the Confederacy for what it stood for and want to destroy symbols of that era, I don't think it's fair at all to make the classification you just made.

Robert E. Lee is the best illustration... he almost took command of the Union forces, but ultimately had to side with his family and home state. For just about every general in that war, what side they ended up on had almost nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with geography. From New York? You were in the Union forces. From Georgia? You were on the other side.

With the exception of Robert Gould Shaw and a couple of the most ardent abolitionists nobody gave a fuck about black people during the civil war. And even the most progressive and tolerant minds on the "good" side were still racist as all hell. Even Shaw -- who epitomizes an American hero if there ever is someone -- didn't believe "Negros" were smart enough and disciplined enough for combat until he spent copious amounts of time with his all black regiment.

It's just weird as hell to me seeing people get revisionist now saying "this side was for evil and slavery, and that side was for good and civil rights." Like if Robert E. Lee has decided he wanted to kill his own family that would've somehow made him more noble than fighting for his home and loved ones.

I'll point again to Longstreet, dude was a very important early civil rights advocate... but because of the frustrating over simplification of, 'they all just fought to own slaves' he's the devil and should not be honored in any way... I'm not comfortable with that step at all... plenty of good people, and intentions on both sides.
 

BGIF

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When I first saw this, the though hit me that this could be the work of some redneck provocateur. On closer look, I noticed the comma between Calhoun and racist.

Not much gets by you sir. LOL



When I saw the the mark after Calhoun's name I laughed out loud.

I envisioned dshans walking by the statue while it was being defaced with spray paint and physically ripping the can from the activist's hand. Then adding the curved character himself while muttering, "Damn it, man! There should be a comma between Calhoun and Racist!"
 

Whiskeyjack

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When I saw the the mark after Calhoun's name I laughed out loud.

I envisioned dshans walking by the statue while it was being defaced with spray paint and physically ripping the can from the activist's hand. Then adding the curved character himself while muttering, "Damn it, man! There should be a comma between Calhoun and Racist!"

"Calhoun Racist? That's an unfortunate surname."
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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You can hate 'em because he's a Bama fan...but the rest...SMH.

Known Racist? WHAT...Is there some sort of star chamber group on here where you read selected microaggressive passages to a tribunal who responds by automatically playing the video of the little kid...THATS RACIST!

This is the guy that started a thread to try and have a thoughtful conversation about Race months ago...so I'm throwing the BULLSHIT flag on your Racist claim.

You know PH, I imbedded the John Stewart segment that was quoted in the article posted on the last page () on purpose.

Not just for the refreshing perspective, (but it is nice to listen for someone with a well though out perspective, that isn't a prejudice rearranging, shit-for-brains.)

I am now convinced that you cannot have a conversation with a racist that doesn't know he is a racist. And their are quite a few on here, just like Southern "Lost Cause" Revisionists. And like his neighbor that flies the stars and bars, it does no good if you ring his doorbell and try to have a civil discussion. The only way there is going to be progress is if you flat out confront him with his racism and tendencies, and tell him you are not going to politely ignore it while you have a disingenuous and meaningless, polite conversation!


The tragedy of America is that this is all self-inflicted. This trajectory to self-destruction doesn't have to be the outcome. As Jon Stewart so eloquently pointed out, "Al Qaeda... ISIS... they're not shit on the damage we can apparently do to ourselves on a regular basis."

The troglodyte that killed those people in South Carolina wanted to fire the opening shots in a new race war. He is a Confederate in every sense of the word. He is a white supremacist. He is a terrorist. He is a traitor.

The worst part is that he is not some aberration. Oh, we want to comfort and assure ourselves that he is, that he has some mental issue, or that he's evil, or some other easy excuse that absolves us all of responsibility.

His actions were heinous, but he is the product of a media environment and culture that protects the ignorant and glorifies division. This is the "heritage" celebrated by those who fly the Confederate flag. By those like my neighbor.


And what about my neighbor? In a perfect world, I would ring his doorbell and have a reasonable discussion with him about how what he's doing is offensive and ahistoric and I'd love to correct his understanding of the entire mess. But the sad fact is, he's not alone, either.

In my time here I've seen scores of Confederate bumper stickers, license plates, and even other flags. Neo-Confederate revisionism is everywhere. It's not confined to "dumb rednecks" or red-state voters or NASCAR fans or any other easy stereotype we use to deceive ourselves and dismiss painful realities. It's not even confined to older generations. The killer in South Carolina is 21. He's a Millennial. He's one of us.

And every day that we don't react to that information, every day we don't internalize this conflict, every day we tell ourselves nothing is wrong, every day we claim we can't be racist because we have black friends, every day we share some viral cat video instead of watch the news, every day we don't knock on our neighbor's door... is another day nothing will change.

I have not seen anyone who has attacked the attack on the stars and bars, or defended that flag or revisionist movement, or tried to show how members of their opposing political party that are trying to do the right thing (actually did the wrong thing in the past, or assholes that call this a "needless tragedy" calling attempted genocide by another name are all racists. It isn't really a degree thing that matters. You are or you aren't.

So you either condone this society of tolerated racial hatred or you don't. You either think of the southern treason as a romantic lost cause, or you don't. If you do, you are a racist and a liar, and if you don't, you may not be.

NOTE : I am not trying to dissuade anyone from being a racist and a liar by using strong armed tactics; to borrow from an old racial cliché, I am just calling a racist, a racist!
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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Disagree. I think it's fair to hate the Confederacy for what it stood for and want to destroy symbols of that era, I don't think it's fair at all to make the classification you just made.

Robert E. Lee is the best illustration... he almost took command of the Union forces, but ultimately had to side with his family and home state. For just about every general in that war, what side they ended up on had almost nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with geography. From New York? You were in the Union forces. From Georgia? You were on the other side.

With the exception of Robert Gould Shaw and a couple of the most ardent abolitionists nobody gave a fuck about black people during the civil war. And even the most progressive and tolerant minds on the "good" side were still racist as all hell. Even Shaw -- who epitomizes an American hero if there ever is someone -- didn't believe "Negros" were smart enough and disciplined enough for combat until he spent copious amounts of time with his all black regiment.

It's just weird as hell to me seeing people get revisionist now saying "this side was for evil and slavery, and that side was for good and civil rights." Like if Robert E. Lee has decided he wanted to kill his own family that would've somehow made him more noble than fighting for his home and loved ones.

I don't think you are a racist or a liar. But you have been misguided. And you are misinformed.

Pinning the slavery issue on anyone that commanded anything during the war is incredibly flawed logic. Did they have signs up at recruiting stations saying if you were against slavery sign up on this side and wear blue, and if not sign up on this side and wear grey? Of course not! By the time anyone made the decision to join, including the first generals on either side, it didn't matter to the great majority of combatants. It neve does.

Thant is how politicians and religious leaders and kings do it.

The original group that stirred up tension in the south, and perpetrated all of the acts that led to firing on Fort Sumter, and South Carolina, were entirely motivated by the financial rewards of slavery, unconcerned with treating anyone but their own "gentile" class of lily-white southern peoples as animals not humans. Historically these were the Europeans that had caused the most damage, death and misery on their own continent, before they sailed to America to maintain the tatters of their feudal society in the new world.

You cannot defend the salient point that maintaining slavery wasn't the only reason to exacerbate the population to treasonous succession. Just as no one can show that the majority of men that fought and died for the Confederate cause were not slave holders. So how do you stir up a population who is relatively unaffected by your cause?
Make up states rights and lost cause issues as well as any other bullshit that will stick!
 

kmoose

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The bottom line in the South Carolina Confederate flag debate is this:

There are two sides to it. On one side are the people who see the flag as symbolic of the racism that at one time was just a part of everyday life in the South.

On the other side are those people who see the flag as symbolic of their ancestors' fight to maintain their way of life, not all of which was racist. And they have a point.

The problem is that they both have valid points. But no matter that the "historians" have a point about the flag's ancestral value; the hatred, intolerance, and downright abuse that it also stands for should outweigh their "honor". The sooner that both sides acknowledge this, the better things will be.
 

Grahambo

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You know PH, I imbedded the John Stewart segment that was quoted in the article posted on the last page () on purpose.

Not just for the refreshing perspective, (but it is nice to listen for someone with a well though out perspective, that isn't a prejudice rearranging, shit-for-brains.)

I am now convinced that you cannot have a conversation with a racist that doesn't know he is a racist. And their are quite a few on here, just like Southern "Lost Cause" Revisionists. And like his neighbor that flies the stars and bars, it does no good if you ring his doorbell and try to have a civil discussion. The only way there is going to be progress is if you flat out confront him with his racism and tendencies, and tell him you are not going to politely ignore it while you have a disingenuous and meaningless, polite conversation!




I have not seen anyone who has attacked the attack on the stars and bars, or defended that flag or revisionist movement, or tried to show how members of their opposing political party that are trying to do the right thing (actually did the wrong thing in the past, or assholes that call this a "needless tragedy" calling attempted genocide by another name are all racists. It isn't really a degree thing that matters. You are or you aren't.

So you either condone this society of tolerated racial hatred or you don't. You either think of the southern treason as a romantic lost cause, or you don't. If you do, you are a racist and a liar, and if you don't, you may not be.

NOTE : I am not trying to dissuade anyone from being a racist and a liar by using strong armed tactics; to borrow from an old racial cliché, I am just calling a racist, a racist!

"they're not shit on the damage we can apparently do to ourselves on a regular basis."

Not to get off topic but I quoted that because we practically created ISIS so in a way, we did do that to ourselves.
 

GoIrish41

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I don't think you are a racist or a liar. But you have been misguided. And you are misinformed.

Pinning the slavery issue on anyone that commanded anything during the war is incredibly flawed logic. Did they have signs up at recruiting stations saying if you were against slavery sign up on this side and wear blue, and if not sign up on this side and wear grey? Of course not! By the time anyone made the decision to join, including the first generals on either side, it didn't matter to the great majority of combatants. It neve does.

Thant is how politicians and religious leaders and kings do it.

The original group that stirred up tension in the south, and perpetrated all of the acts that led to firing on Fort Sumter, and South Carolina, were entirely motivated by the financial rewards of slavery, unconcerned with treating anyone but their own "gentile" class of lily-white southern peoples as animals not humans. Historically these were the Europeans that had caused the most damage, death and misery on their own continent, before they sailed to America to maintain the tatters of their feudal society in the new world.

You cannot defend the salient point that maintaining slavery wasn't the only reason to exacerbate the population to treasonous succession. Just as no one can show that the majority of men that fought and died for the Confederate cause were not slave holders. So how do you stir up a population who is relatively unaffected by your cause?
Make up states rights and lost cause issues as well as any other bullshit that will stick!
I believe this post is spot on. Gotta spread it around, Bogs, but this is a rep-able post if ever there was one.
 
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Cackalacky

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Amazon, eBay, etsy , Sears and others now pulling confederate memorabilia from their stock/websites.


In other news,....8 state legislators from SC will refuse to vote to move the flag under any circumstances. I saw the headline and bet my wife we couldn't name the districts they represent. She got 6 of 8 right. Lol. It's family game night in Cacks house....
 
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Cackalacky

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Lindsay Graham is now in favor of taking it down. He was against it before he was for it. Apparently running for president makes a difference.
 

BGIF

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Lindsay Graham is now in favor of taking it down. He was against it before he was for it. Apparently running for president makes a difference.

So Graham has broken out with a case of John Wafflehouse Kerry Syndrome.
 
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Cackalacky

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So Graham has broken out with a case of John Wafflehouse Kerry Syndrome.

Yes. The Sons of Confederate Veterans are plotting a Graham swiftboat event presently.

#Ironclad
 
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IrishLax

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I don't think you are a racist or a liar. But you have been misguided. And you are misinformed.

Pinning the slavery issue on anyone that commanded anything during the war is incredibly flawed logic. Did they have signs up at recruiting stations saying if you were against slavery sign up on this side and wear blue, and if not sign up on this side and wear grey? Of course not! By the time anyone made the decision to join, including the first generals on either side, it didn't matter to the great majority of combatants. It neve does.

Thant is how politicians and religious leaders and kings do it.

I'm sorry, isn't this exactly the point I was making?

The original group that stirred up tension in the south, and perpetrated all of the acts that led to firing on Fort Sumter, and South Carolina, were entirely motivated by the financial rewards of slavery, unconcerned with treating anyone but their own "gentile" class of lily-white southern peoples as animals not humans. Historically these were the Europeans that had caused the most damage, death and misery on their own continent, before they sailed to America to maintain the tatters of their feudal society in the new world.

Right, which is why I said said it makes sense to me that people would want to remove all symbols related to the Confederacy.
 

NDgradstudent

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The bottom line in the South Carolina Confederate flag debate is this:

There are two sides to it. On one side are the people who see the flag as symbolic of the racism that at one time was just a part of everyday life in the South.

On the other side are those people who see the flag as symbolic of their ancestors' fight to maintain their way of life, not all of which was racist. And they have a point.

The problem is that they both have valid points. But no matter that the "historians" have a point about the flag's ancestral value; the hatred, intolerance, and downright abuse that it also stands for should outweigh their "honor". The sooner that both sides acknowledge this, the better things will be.

Why should the "hatred" outweigh the "honor"? Lots of people believe that the American flag is a symbol of racism, genocide, etc.- how many have the believe that for us to take the American flag down? How many people have to be offended for us to rename streets, destroy memorials, and burn flags?
 

pkt77242

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Why should the "hatred" outweigh the "honor"? Lots of people believe that the American flag is a symbol of racism, genocide, etc.- how many have the believe that for us to take the American flag down? How many people have to be offended for us to rename streets, destroy memorials, and burn flags?

The question is why should it be on government property by the capital. It can be in a museum, people can paint their car like the general lee, or their living room or fly it in their front yard.
 

gkIrish

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Why should the "hatred" outweigh the "honor"? Lots of people believe that the American flag is a symbol of racism, genocide, etc.- how many have the believe that for us to take the American flag down? How many people have to be offended for us to rename streets, destroy memorials, and burn flags?

How many Americans believe that? Not many.
 
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