Fatal shooting Charleston SC

GowerND11

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NDgradstudent

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Is this really your perspective of the press? Blacks get special treatment here also in your mind? I guess some people can see racism any and everywhere.

On another more disturbing note, in the wake of this tragedy, this is the injustice you want to speak on, your contribution to the dialogue??? God help us.

Yes, it is my perspective on the press, because it is obviously true.

Some lunatic drug user murders people- the dialogue should probably focus on the massive drug use. "Racism" cannot be eliminated from society. Guns can be eliminated (not controlled), but not without destroying our culture and law, and making most people more vulnerable to violence. Drugs of the sort he was taking serve little useful purpose.
 

wizards8507

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People think guns make them safer. It's objectively not true. You are more likely to accidentally shoot yourself than you are to shoot an invader.
No, because I am not an idiot. Idiots shoot themselves accidentally, to which I respond there's no need to restrict the freedom of non-idiots in order to protect idiots from themselves. I have zero percent chance of shooting myself and some non-zero chance of shooting an invader.
 

wizards8507

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If Joe Schmoe wants to murder his wife and he has no guns in the house, is he going to say "Aw shucks, nevermind." Or is he going to grab a sharp knife and slit her throat? My guess it on the latter rather than the former.
Exactly. Guns increase gun-related violence because no shit it does. Just like knives increase knife-related violence, vehicles increase vehicle-related violence, and alcohol increases alcohol-related violence.
 

wizards8507

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This is how its being handled. Literally as diverse a crowd as as you will ever see in SC together organized quickly and effectively. The Jewish Community, Catholics, Baptists, multiracial non-denominational all together in solidarity.
AP_charleston_shooting_memorial_2_jt_150618_16x9_992.jpg
That's fantastic. It's also not a given. Since you're "on the ground" so-to-speak, why have the folks in SC responded so much more positively than the folks in Ferguson or Baltimore? There's no agenda in that question, I'm just honestly curious.
 

GowerND11

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No, because I am not an idiot. Idiots shoot themselves accidentally, to which I respond there's no need to restrict the freedom of non-idiots in order to protect idiots from themselves. I have zero percent chance of shooting myself and some non-zero chance of shooting an invader.

0% chance of shooting yourself? Let's be real Wizards. I respect that you are a smart guy. I'm sure you('d) take proper care of your firearm and would handle it with the the utmost caution. But you can't have a 0% chance of shooting yourself. There are too many variables to totally eliminate that threat.

I will agree that a properly trained person in possession of a gun has a very VERY low chance of shooting themselves. That's why gun safety is so important. The problem, as I'm sure we all know, is that those that perpetuate these crimes (usually) are not properly trained and/or psychologically incompetent. I'd also argue, like others have said in regards to murder, that many that commit murder are not thinking clearly (whether again, they are incompetent, or "act of passion") and any training is gone out the window.
 

NDohio

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This is how its being handled. Literally as diverse a crowd as as you will ever see in SC together organized quickly and effectively. The Jewish Community, Catholics, Baptists, multiracial non-denominational all together in solidarity.
AP_charleston_shooting_memorial_2_jt_150618_16x9_992.jpg


As far as anyone having a gun to stop him...I am just not in the mood to argue that. There are numerous situations where gun violence was executed in the presence of people and places with more guns present and the act still concluded with the inevitable. Multiple people dead and eventually the shooter captured or shot.

My personal history with guns will not allow me to argue for the necessity of more guns especially those that are easily accessible. That's just me and I am not in the majority so I will leave that alone.


That's fantastic. We are thinking about driving down on Sunday AM to Worship at Emmanuel.
 

wizards8507

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The problem, as I'm sure we all know, is that those that perpetuate these crimes (usually) are not properly trained and/or psychologically incompetent. I'd also argue, like others have said in regards to murder, that many that commit murder are not thinking clearly (whether again, they are incompetent, or "act of passion") and any training is gone out the window.
Understood. But no matter what barriers are put up to prevent these folks from legally obtaining guns, they're not going to hesitate to illegally obtain guns. They don't obey MURDER laws, yet somehow they're going to walk the line and follow gun control laws? No.

It would be wonderful if we could disarm the "bad guys." I acknowledge that. But 1) we don't know who the bad guys are in advance, and 2) we couldn't disarm them even if we could identify them. The bad guys WILL have guns; that's not a political argument it's just a statement of fact. Given that fact, I'd rather have as many "good guys" with guns as possible to combat the "bad guys" if necessary.
 

NDohio

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That's fantastic. It's also not a given. Since you're "on the ground" so-to-speak, why have the folks in SC responded so much more positively than the folks in Ferguson or Baltimore? There's no agenda in that question, I'm just honestly curious.


I think the better question is why did Charleston not react like Baltimore and Ferguson when the cop shot and killed that man behind Auto Zone. Those crimes are closer to being equivalent. IMO it was because the cop was immediately fired.


This crime can not be equated to Ferguson, Baltimore, or even North Charleston. Completely innocent and well respected individuals were killed by a cold blooded murderer. I would think most cities - even ones with racial tension - would react similarly to Charleston.
 

GowerND11

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Understood. But no matter what barriers are put up to prevent these folks from legally obtaining guns, they're not going to hesitate to illegally obtain guns. They don't obey MURDER laws, yet somehow they're going to walk the line and follow gun control laws? No.

It would be wonderful if we could disarm the "bad guys." I acknowledge that. But 1) we don't know who the bad guys are in advance, and 2) we couldn't disarm them even if we could identify them. The bad guys WILL have guns; that's not a political argument it's just a statement of fact. Given that fact, I'd rather have as many "good guys" with guns as possible to combat the "bad guys" if necessary.

Oh I agree completely about those with guns illegally. They won't surrender their weapons if we banned guns, just like they won't buy them legally because they can buy guns.


My one point though has more to do with those that are around guns (legally) and still commit murder. Was there ever a way to prevent it? Probably not (see our agreement on finding another weapon). But I like to think (hope) that society can try and do something positive in this field by maybe helping to prevent the violence.
 
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Cackalacky

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That's fantastic. We are thinking about driving down on Sunday AM to Worship at Emmanuel.

Not sure you will be able to go inside. Apparently is was an awful scene. I have heard reports he unload 5 magazines. Unconfirmed, but the survivor has been attributed with saying that. No official forensics have been released by the police.

There will be plenty of places to go and worship/support nearby. Check the City Paper or Post and Courier.
 
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NDohio

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Not sure you will be able to go inside. Apparently is was an awful scene. I have heard reports he unload 5 clips. Unconfirmed, but the survivor has been attributed with saying that. No official forensic have been released by the police.

There will be plenty of places to go and worship/support nearby. Check the City Paper or Post and Courier.

Thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if they were going to hold a service there or somewhere off-site. I'll dig into it before making the drive.
 

GoIrish41

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You're correct in describing what happened. I'm talking about the potential fallout. The folks in Charleston seem to be doing an amazing job at letting things play out, but that's now how Baltimore and Ferguson responded.


I disagree. If ONE "good guy" in that church had a gun, we might be talking about one or two innocent victims and a dead shooter instead of nine innocent victims.

This shooter was not a cop, just an angry racist with a comically bad haircut. If a cop would have killed 9 people as they worshiped, I suspect there would be a different reaction.
 

Redbar

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Yes, it is my perspective on the press, because it is obviously true.

There you go again speaking in absolutes, about things that are so obviously not that.

Some lunatic drug user murders people- the dialogue should probably focus on the massive drug use. "Racism" cannot be eliminated from society. Guns can be eliminated (not controlled), but not without destroying our culture and law, and making most people more vulnerable to violence. Drugs of the sort he was taking serve little useful purpose.

This is the overwhelming characterization by the media, that I have seen in cases like this. I am not at all surprised by the irony of your saying this while railing about the media. It is unfortunate because probably a majority of mass murderers have a lot to say about why they want to do what they ultimately do. Too frequently the media and the majority of us are too quick to label these people lunatics, mad, crazy. It is an attempt to silence these people, probably because it helps shield us from looking at an ugly side of ourselves. It keeps our "projection myths" going. Kind of like when you ignored the true injustice and narrowed in on the real one, in your eyes,-the one where the media pointed out his race "prodigiously."
 
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Cackalacky

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That's fantastic. It's also not a given. Since you're "on the ground" so-to-speak, why have the folks in SC responded so much more positively than the folks in Ferguson or Baltimore? There's no agenda in that question, I'm just honestly curious.
The short answer is that the circumstances for Baltimore and Ferguson are far different and are not comparable to this instance. A more comparable issue is the shooting in North Charleston, with the difference being that the guy was filmed, arrested, fired and indicted. There was still a demonstration which remained mostly peaceful.

Police brutality against minorities is not consistent with hate crimes against minorities. Maybe the nuance is difficult to grasp but such subversive and deep seated culturally indoctrinated concepts are very nuanced.

Peninsular Charleston was settled by a very diverse group of people from Sephardic Jews to French Hugenots. Its history as a major port has always ensured it will be a melting pot. This is not so different that other coastal cities. Charleston is unique in that it is fairly progressive relative to the whole state and much of the south but is steeped in deep seated conservative principles which have dominated its social history. It is a city of stark societal differences (black and white if you will) where the population exists in between. There are many integrated neighborhoods and communities and others much more segregated.

For example we have the College of Charleston, one of the best liberal art colleges in the south. Not “liberal” politics, but liberal (diverse) arts in the original sense. Its probably in the oldest 20 public institutions. Not far from this is the Citadel, the top military college in the south (next to VMI) which originally began as a garrison in 1822 created and located just down from the original Mother Emanuel as a result of Denmark Vesey’s proposed slave rebellion. The rebellion was stopped, the congregation dispersed and the church burned by Charleston whites. The garrison was established to watch the church and nearby churches to make sure no blacks organized out of retribution. This garrison later grew into the Citadel which has since sent many boys into each of America’s wars. Most important to the city is the cadets involvement in the Civil War and taking of Ft. Sumter. The Citadel was located here till 1922. A statue of John C. Calhoun stands in the adjacent square with his back defiantly facing North and his front benevolently facing south. Being a cadet is currently still very prestigious in light of the schools sordid history as a state sanctioned military unit and its origins.

The peninsula is literally carved in half into poor black neighborhoods and uber wealthy ones. Separated by a six lane crosstown connector (BusterBluth would not approve). The schools and communities could not be more different and separate yet the kids are highly integrated into the various schools theough the Magent system and a lack of districting. Further the College of Charleston student body is pretty much required to live of campus and have more and more moved into previously rundown homes and gentrification/rehabbing slave homes are pulling these communities together.
Our mayor is a progressive yet conservative Democrat. Its hard to fully describe.

North Charleston was only recently incorporated in 1972 even though it has been a large military and industrial based community since 1901. Previously it was rural Charleston county and primarily black, until the Navy Base got cranked up in WWII when white began moving into the area. Along with the incorporation came the violence common throughout the south in the late 1950s and 1960s due to suburban sprawl. More and more blacks were forced into certain/specific areas. The North Charleston police force was tasked with maintaining order during this time and targeted these areas for many years. They developed very aggressive policies which are thoroughly enforced primarily in the black communities. The black community of North Charleston became very distrustful of the government and police. While simultaneously, Charleston was far more stable with a mayor determined to promote peace and growth during the turbulent time. The black community far more integrated and black community leaders held relatively important positions.
Anyway, the response by Charlestonians is not surprising as it has been seen and dealt with many times before and this is not so new.

That being said, all of this is moot outside of Charleston County. The population is far more conservative, far more rural, far more indoctrinated and it is no surprise to us here that a kid from a trailer park in rural Columbia had to make a 2 hour drive into a great city, attack a historically significant black church, by murdering a black State Senator who also is a pastor (one who was well respected in both endeavors).

It quite truly is the tale of a black and white society existing in a backdrop of grey.
 

GoldenToTheGrave

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Understood. But no matter what barriers are put up to prevent these folks from legally obtaining guns, they're not going to hesitate to illegally obtain guns. They don't obey MURDER laws, yet somehow they're going to walk the line and follow gun control laws? No.

It would be wonderful if we could disarm the "bad guys." I acknowledge that. But 1) we don't know who the bad guys are in advance, and 2) we couldn't disarm them even if we could identify them. The bad guys WILL have guns; that's not a political argument it's just a statement of fact. Given that fact, I'd rather have as many "good guys" with guns as possible to combat the "bad guys" if necessary.

So in that case do you think we should allow concealed carry on airplanes? How about government buildings? Should I be able to buy bomb making equipment? Where do you personally draw the line?
 

alohagoirish

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In 1972 Archie Bunker demanded equal time against a gun control argument delivered on TV. In his amusing TV rant he offered his fool proof solution for plane hijacking " I could stop those plane hijackers cold , all you have to do is arm all your passengers!"...."You pass guns out when you get on the plane and collect them when you land".

After 40 plus years what was a very funny joke built on absurdity has morphed into a serious argument for everyone everywhere to be armed. We have deep issues as a society that have gotten only worse over the decades.
 

ACamp1900

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Cackalacky

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I figured something like that accounted for the hour gap... has he stated exactly what the motivation was in the first place?? I know we can all assume with some confidence but he has actually stated so??

Yes. Clearly. He wanted to kill black people and start a civil war because "you are raping our women and taking over our country"...."so you have to go."

The hour gap was because he entered the church but did not partake in the bible study. Reports are he was hanging out alone. They attempted to have him join but he declined and they left him be. Ahe almost backed out, but ultimately decided they needed to die.
 

Bishop2b5

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Is there any strong indication as to whether this was purely a racially motivated thing by a true believer in all the KKK/skinhead stuff or if he just has a couple of loose screws and the racial angle was where his loonyness found a home?
 
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Cackalacky

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Is there any strong indication as to whether this was purely a racially motivated thing by a true believer in all the KKK/skinhead stuff or if he just has a couple of loose screws and the racial angle was where his loonyness found a home?

There is every indication this person was in full use of his faculties and was very cognizant of his desire to kill black people. This was not a religious based killing as the right wing news media and presidential candidates are attempting to frame it as. He was literally your textbook racist. You don't have to be associated with KKK nor have screws loose to hate someone. I find it it far more common that generational racism is passed on to kids from parents/grandparents or from close acquaintances. It's not like parents sit their Kids down and school them racist propaganda but is the little exchanges in public, the under breath comments as people walk by, opinions expressed at him over many years that add up to frame a kids perspective.

However there are multiple well know hate group chapters in the state not called KKK and he might well have been associated with them. Unknown at this time but pics released of him show him wearing Apartheid South African and Rhodesian flags on his clothing and a distinctly egregious confederate flag bumper license plate.
 

gkIrish

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There is every indication this person was in full use of his faculties and was very cognizant of his desire to kill black people. This was not a religious based killing as the right wing news media and presidential candidates are attempting to frame it as. He was literally your textbook racist. You don't have to be associated with KKK nor have screws loose to hate someone. I find it it far more common that generational racism is passed on to kids from parents/grandparents or from close acquaintances. It's not like parents sit their Kids down and school them racist propaganda but is the little exchanges in public, the under breath comments as people walk by, opinions expressed at him over many years that add up to frame a kids perspective.

However there are multiple well know hate group chapters in the state not called KKK and he might well have been associated with them. Unknown at this time but pics released of him show him wearing Apartheid South African and Rhodesian flags on his clothing and a distinctly egregious confederate flag bumper license plate.

The question I always have is how can someone who does something like this be sane? I don't want them to be treated as insane in the eyes of the law but while it's easy to understand how someone could be a sane racist it's more difficult to understand how someone can be a "sane racist mass murderer."
 
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