Fatal shooting Charleston SC

[wizards8507]

Pretty sure they just escalate the potential punishment to a higher level. Or in some cases the crime may go from "assault" to "aggravated assault." Something like that.

That's what I figured. But when you murder eight innocent people, I feel like you've already maxed out the "severity" scale.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Can someone help me with the legal significance of the "hate crime" designation? What does it mean?

Cursory online research indicates that the "hate crime" designation allows for federal investigation and prosecution. Otherwise, as gk noted, it just seems to be an aggravating factor for sentencing.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Do you think they'll finally get a white guy on terrorism charges?

 

[gkIrish]

The ONLY thing I could see mitigating this guy's punishment is whether this was truly premeditated or not. I think somebody mentioned he was sitting talking with these people for an hour before killing them? If so I wonder what his intent was originally.

 

[Henges24]

Will he be tried in NC?? I'm assuming they'll take him back to SC correct? If so the question will be does SC have it.

Sorry typo on my part. Yes they do.

 

[woolybug25]

Do you think they'll finally get a white guy on terrorism charges?

What would you call Tim McVeigh?

 

[ACamp1900]

The ONLY thing I could see mitigating this guy's punishment is whether this was truly premeditated or not. I think somebody mentioned he was sitting talking with these people for an hour before killing them? If so I wonder what his intent was originally.

It's possible he went there with intent and it took him an hour for his nerves to calm...

 

[ACamp1900]

What would you call Tim McVeigh?

He's referring to actual charges in court I believe... was McVeigh hit with that??

 

[BGIF]

What would you call Tim McVeigh?

Tried, Convicted, and Executed.

 

[gkIrish]

It's possible he went there with intent and it took him an hour for his nerves to calm...

Yeah typically you can prove premeditation simply by showing that he brought a deadly weapon with him to this place so I don't think it's going to be an actual issue.

 

[Cackalacky]

From the FBI:

FBI Jurisdiction

A hate crime is not a distinct federal offense. However, the federal government can and does investigate and prosecute crimes of bias as civil rights violations, which do fall under its jurisdiction. These efforts serve as a backstop for state and local authorities, which handle the vast majority of hate crime cases. A 1994 federal law also increased penalties for offenses proven to be hate crimes.

In 2009, the passage of a new law—the first significant expansion of federal criminal civil rights law since the mid-1990s—gave the federal government the authority to prosecute violent hate crimes, including violence and attempted violence directed at the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community, to the fullest extent of its jurisdiction. The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr., Hate Crimes Prevention Act also provides funding and technical assistance to state, local, and tribal jurisdictions to help them to more effectively investigate, prosecute, and prevent hate crimes.

The FBI’s Role

As part of its responsibility to uphold the civil rights of the American people, the FBI takes a number of steps to combat the problem of hate crimes:

Investigative Activities: The FBI is the sole investigative force for criminal violations of federal civil rights statutes. In 2012, we initiated 200 hate crime investigations, many jointly with our state and local law enforcement partners.
Cold Case Initiative: In 2007, we announced this renewed focus on racially-motivated killings from the civil rights era, involving FBI agents from more than a dozen field offices who—with the assistance of our law enforcement partners, community leaders, and the media—identified cases and then began tracking down witnesses and locating family members, pursuing leads, reviewing law enforcement records and other documents, and seeking closure for family members. As reported in the October 2012 Attorney General’s Fourth Annual Report to Congress Pursuant to the Emmett Till Unsolved Civil Rights Crime Act of 2007, investigations into 92 of the 112 cold cases identified have been concluded (in most of these 92 cases, the subjects are deceased). The initiative has, so far, resulted in one successful federal prosecution and one successful state prosecution.
Law Enforcement Support: The FBI works closely with state/local authorities on investigations, even when federal charges are not brought. FBI resources, forensic expertise, and experience in identification and proof of hate-based motivations often provide an invaluable complement to local law enforcement. Many cases are also prosecuted under state statutes such as murder, arson, or more recent local ethnic intimidation laws. Once the state prosecution begins, the Department of Justice monitors the proceedings in order to ensure that the federal interest is vindicated and the law is applied equally among the 95 U.S. Judicial Districts.
The FBI forwards completed reports to U.S. Attorneys and the Civil Rights Division at the Department of Justice, which decide whether a federal prosecution is warranted. They may move forward, for example, if local authorities are unwilling or unable to prosecute a crime of bias.
Hate crimes directed at the U.S. government or the American population may be investigated as acts of domestic terrorism. Incidents involving hate groups are also investigated as domestic terrorism (the FBI’s Civil Rights Program cannot investigate groups, only individuals).

That being said, South Carolina does not have a hate law so the FBI can take the lead on the investigation, go further with prosecution and other things that SC can or wont do.

 

[Corry]

Getting ready to post it. Damn he was on the move. Kill that bitch.

Take it easy buddy.

 

[woolybug25]

He's referring to actual charges in court I believe... was McVeigh hit with that??

Was the charge of "Terrorism" even around then? Technically, guys like Kaczynski, McVeigh and Nichols (all white dudes) were all convicted for murder, but I don't believe the actual charge of Terrorism existed.

Better question... is Terrorism even a charge? Tsarnaev wasn't even charged with Terrorism, he was charged with: Using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction resulting in death; malicious destruction of property resulting in death.


Either way... this kid is far from the "first white terrorist".

 

[ACamp1900]

Was the charge of "Terrorism" even around then? Technically, guys like Kaczynski, McVeigh and Nichols (all white dudes) were all convicted for murder, but I don't believe the actual charge of Terrorism existed.

Better question... is Terrorism even a charge? Tsarnaev wasn't even charged with Terrorism, he was charged with: Using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction resulting in death; malicious destruction of property resulting in death.


Either way... this kid is far from the "first white terrorist".

I don't know that it was around then... I was going to ask that as well, and I believe it is a charge. To your last sentence though, that wasn't his point, I believe he was referring to the actual charge... but one of us is clearly misunderstanding him, so maybe it's me.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Do you think they'll finally get a white guy on terrorism charges?

Licking our chops, are we? Plenty of white guys have been charged with terrorism.

The proper punishment for murder, and certainly for murdering multiple people, is death. (If this had happened in a Northern state, he probably would not be put to death.) Just calling it a hate crime (unlike all of those murders committed by people free of hate) would not make it a capital crime under federal or state law.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Licking our chops, are we? Plenty of white guys have been charged with terrorism.

The proper punishment for murder, and certainly for murdering multiple people, is death. (If this had happened in a Northern state, he probably would not be put to death.) Just calling it a hate crime (unlike all of those murders committed by people free of hate) would not make it a capital crime under federal or state law.

Is this from a recent edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It seems to be missing from mine.

 

[gkIrish]

Is this from a recent edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It seems to be missing from mine.

It's not in my personal codebook either. Searching through the table of contents right now...

 

[Irish#1]

Was the charge of "Terrorism" even around then? Technically, guys like Kaczynski, McVeigh and Nichols (all white dudes) were all convicted for murder, but I don't believe the actual charge of Terrorism existed.

Better question... is Terrorism even a charge? Tsarnaev wasn't even charged with Terrorism, he was charged with: Using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction resulting in death; malicious destruction of property resulting in death.


Either way... this kid is far from the "first white terrorist".

I don't know that it was around then... I was going to ask that as well, and I believe it is a charge. To your last sentence though, that wasn't his point, I believe he was referring to the actual charge... but one of us is clearly misunderstanding him, so maybe it's me.

I remember the OKC bombings being referred to as an act of terrorism, so anyway you slice it, Tim McVeigh = terrorist.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Is this from a recent edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It seems to be missing from mine.

I was not quoting from the Catechism, I was expressing my considered view. Of course, this was the view of the Church until very recently (assassinating the Pope was a capital crime in Vatican City through 1969, for example). The Church still holds that death is an acceptable punishment for murder, if not the only permissible one. Perhaps you could quote the bit from the Catechism that says that capital punishment is always wrong?

 

[BGIF]

Is this from a recent edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? It seems to be missing from mine.

When did the Catechism of the Catholic Church specify laws or punishments in the USA, state or federal?

Or are you two running another topic across threads?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I was not quoting from the Catechism, I was expressing my considered view. Of course, this was the view of the Church until very recently (assassinating the Pope was a capital crime in Vatican City through 1969, for example). The Church still holds that death is an acceptable punishment for murder, if not the only permissible one. Perhaps you could quote the bit from the Catechism that says that capital punishment is always wrong?

Catholic doctrine regarding capital punishment is similar to that regarding war; justified under extreme circumstances, but in the vast majority of cases, causing far more harm than good. So categorically stating that "The proper punishment for murder... is death" isn't a very Catholic sentiment.

When did the Catechism of the Catholic Church specify laws or punishments in the USA, state or federal?

Or are you two running another topic across threads?

Sort of, and apologies for derailing this thread. I have no desire to turn this into a theological debate. It's just that NDgradstudent tends to argue quite forcefully from Catholic doctrine on other topics, so it struck me as dissonant that he so casually endorses the death penalty as well.

 

[gkIrish]

When did the Catechism of the Catholic Church specify laws or punishments in the USA, state or federal?

Or are you two running another topic across threads?

I think everyone needs to be more conscious of phrasing opinions as facts. "The proper punishment for murder is death" comes across as a statement of fact rather than opinion.

 

[NDgradstudent]

I do not want to derail this thread either, so I will continue the discussion in the theology thread.

 

[Cackalacky]

Unfortunately, the FRAMING WARS have started.... This kid apparently stated he was planning to do this as much as a a few weeks prior however he mentioned killing people at CofC to his friends. See more from this Gawker ReportGAWKER

On the other side, Alex Jones is already blaming this "lone" incident on a drug that makes people prone to violent outburstsALEX JONES in this article full of unverifiable anecdotes. Like it was not pre-mediatated or that this outburst somehow would be maintained while driving two hours and then sitting in a room for an hour with people he did not know nor had any previous business being there.

Its possible his intent was to go to CofC to kill people but chose this church once he got to Charleston on a Wednesday night....? Or his intent was to specifically go to this church with a significant history in the black community.

 

[ACamp1900]

Alex Jones???... smh... I was saying though, everyone's going to use this to their own agenda...

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Was the charge of "Terrorism" even around then? Technically, guys like Kaczynski, McVeigh and Nichols (all white dudes) were all convicted for murder, but I don't believe the actual charge of Terrorism existed.

Better question... is Terrorism even a charge? Tsarnaev wasn't even charged with Terrorism, he was charged with: Using and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction resulting in death; malicious destruction of property resulting in death.


Either way... this kid is far from the "first white terrorist".

Oh there have been plenty of white terrorists even in the way we use the term today, but the Fox News crowd typically saves the term for various brown people. Ultimately it makes no difference, guy's still gonna fry, but it's a blatant media double standard.

 

[wizards8507]

Oh there have been plenty of white terrorists even in the way we use the term today, but the Fox News crowd typically saves the term for various brown people.

And we wonder why we can't have honest discourse in this country.

 

[BGIF]

Catholic doctrine regarding capital punishment is similar to that regarding war; justified under extreme circumstances, but in the vast majority of cases, causing far more harm than good. So categorically stating that "The proper punishment for murder... is death" isn't a very Catholic sentiment.



Sort of, and apologies for derailing this thread. I have no desire to turn this into a theological debate. It's just that NDgradstudent tends to argue quite forcefully from Catholic doctrine on other topics, so it struck me as dissonant that he so casually endorses the death penalty as well.

I do not want to derail this thread either, so I will continue the discussion in the theology thread.

Thanks guys.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

And we wonder why we can't have honest discourse in this country.

Would you suggest that he isn't a terrorist?

 

[irishff1014]

This dude has bought in to the racist mindset. He effective a whole community because of some disturbing beliefs. But our wonderful president has his own view smh.