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tussin

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A lot of it is due to American businesses putting shareholders over employees. 70 years ago you could start working for a corporation straight out of high school, marry young, buy your first house in your early 20s, immediately start a family, enjoy good benefits and job security for 40 years, and then retire with a nice watch and a pension. All of that disappeared because American elites chose to enrich themselves at the expense of workers.

I understand your point but think your outrage is misplaced. The lowest paid employees at most companies are still making the same in purchasing power as wage earners did in the 50s and 60s. Move beyond the lowest earners at those companies and our corporate giants have provided millions and millions of white collar, upper-middle class jobs. This is a good thing.

I think your outrage should be directed more on why my ACL surgery cost $95K or why my undergrad and MBA cost me $400K+. We have entire generations of kids graduating under mountains of debt and the powers that be at the top of the education system literally don't give a shit. Maybe we should be less mad at Bezos and more mad at someone like Graham Spanier, the disgraced PSU president who made almost $3M in 2012.
 

snoopdog

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There's nothing in Fratelli Tutti that can't be found in the encyclicals of his two predecessors. But if I'm being asked to choose between the GOP and the Vicar of Christ, I think you know which side I'm erring on.



Every form of power one can have--a father over his children, a king over his subject, a president over the citizenry, a CEO over his business, etc.--carries a moral obligation to utilize that authority for the best interests of those governed. That includes the requirement to pay a living wage capable of supporting a family, and most US businesses have been aggressively shedding that obligation in the name of "shareholder value". You won't find a single billionaire who's not standing on the backs of people like brutalized warehouse workers in American or Foxconn slaves in Shenzhen factories.



A lot of it is due to American businesses putting shareholders over employees. 70 years ago you could start working for a corporation straight out of high school, marry young, buy your first house in your early 20s, immediately start a family, enjoy good benefits and job security for 40 years, and then retire with a nice watch and a pension. All of that disappeared because American elites chose to enrich themselves at the expense of workers.



And who does that expectation benefit? Shareholders and the top quintile. You're not wrong about the proximate causes, but the frustration is that our system makes it so easy to just shrug it off as an inexplicable force of nature. "The prices of housing, education and healthcare have skyrocketed. No one knows why. Oh well." All of this is the direct result of elite decision-making that profited themselves at the expense of their employees. And it's still going on!

If I am coming across as a republican, mea culpa. I am not basing any of my feelings on the GOP or Trump. In fact I personally find Trump repulsive.
But I really don’t like or appreciate you calling people bootlickers, for not seeing the world through your eyes. As an example, you going back 70 years to try and paint a picture of economic bliss in America. I see that era as frightful from an economic perspective. Btw isn’t that a GOP tactic.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I understand your point but think your outrage is misplaced. The lowest paid employees at most companies are still making the same in purchasing power as wage earners did in the 50s and 60s. Move beyond the lowest earners at those companies and our corporate giants have provided millions and millions of white collar, upper-middle class jobs. This is a good thing.

There were a lot more of those jobs in the post-war period. Consultants like McKinsey have been ruthlessly culling them since the 70s.

I think your outrage should be directed more on why my ACL surgery cost $95K or why my undergrad and MBA cost me $400K+. We have entire generations of kids graduating under mountains of debt and the powers that be at the top of the education system literally don't give a shit. Maybe we should be less mad at Bezos and more mad at someone like Graham Spanier, the disgraced PSU president who made almost $3M in 2012.

I don't see these as distinct phenomena. The people who hyped "shareholder value" are the same ones who have been off-shoring jobs, cutting benefits, and generally making the fate of the American worker more precarious with every passing year. And that precarity is a big reason why education costs have skyrocketed, because a 4-year degree is among the last paths to a stable middle-class existence. But that path is shrinking as the degrees themselves become less valuable and the rich start pulling up the ladders they themselves climbed to the top.

But I really don’t like or appreciate you calling people bootlickers, for not seeing the world through your eyes.

Your recent contributions in this thread largely consisted of condescendingly telling a CPA and an estate/ tax planning attorney that we don't understand how much the rich really pay in taxes, which started us off on a bad foot. I work for these people and am intimately familiar with their finances. So I know what I'm talking about here. But I apologize for calling you a bootlicker.

As an example, you going back 70 years to try and paint a picture of economic bliss in America. I see that era as frightful from an economic perspective. Btw isn’t that a GOP tactic.

I made no such claim. I stated that 70 years ago, it was better to be a blue-collar worker in America, and that is undeniably true. To the extent the GOP likes to worship a nonexistent golden age, it's the social structures of the 50s. But they have no interest in bringing back labor unions and widespread prosperity.
 

Ndaccountant

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I'd be ok with a tax scaled off your gross income that cannot be included in your AGI. Or a threshold level that no matter what you write off or deduct or depreciate or harbor off shore, you cannot pay less than that.

Anything is better than the current system and having a supposed billionaire pay $750 in taxes.

First, I don't care for the Don. So don't take this as a defense of him. It isn't.

But let's talk the tax situation. I know it's murky and I know there are probably numerous areas that are riddled with favorable deductions that the courts will ultimately decide. So let's focus just on the situation, not who and how they got there.

Cash is cash. When someone invests (M&E, real estate, etc.) it's cash out the door and put into the economy. The amount of cash someone is willing to invest is based on the amount of cash the will receive back over time, whether that is through cost reduction, rent payments, dividends, or in some cases, the avoidance of future losses. The cash generated includes tax implications, including the deductions related to interest and depreciation. When Obama signed the accelerated depreciation into law in 2011/2012, it was estimated that it would reduce federal tax collections by $25B a year (at the time). I think most people would agree, from a purely economic viewpoint, that getting people to churn their investments into the economy is a good thing.

The minimal tax is a byproduct of two things. 1) You have highly leveraged individuals deducting significant amount of interest, which combined with depreciation, generates little or negative tax rates, which will be carried forward. 2) Imbalance in useful life assumptions across industries.

The last one is the true crux of the problem, though #1 is for a different reason. For example, there were special incentives put into a Farm Bill to speed up the depreciation for race horses far beyond what anyone would deem reasonable. As with most things in Washington, it is/was about how $ignificant the lobbying activity is for your chosen industry. I don't think this means our tax system is broken, or that simply raising rates is the solution. It isn't that simple and people will still find a way to dodge them so long as K street exists. That was the brilliance of the 9-9-9 plan. Now, we can debate the merits of sales vs personal income tax. But the simplicity of the tax is what is so attractive. But it was DOA because there is too much $$ spent on lobbying and lining the pockets of all politicians to ever have a change.

As for the issue with #1...it would help quite a bit if we actually allowed businesses to fail. We talk all we can about the employees. It isn't the employees that are bailed it, its the shareholders. If someone / some company is far too leveraged, well, that's on them. Take AMC movie theatres as example. They were far too leveraged and were much more financially aggressive than their peers. They should be held to account.
 

Ndaccountant

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There were a lot more of those jobs in the post-war period. Consultants like McKinsey have been ruthlessly culling them since the 70s.



I don't see these as distinct phenomena. The people who hyped "shareholder value" are the same ones who have been off-shoring jobs, cutting benefits, and generally making the fate of the American worker more precarious with every passing year. And that precarity is a big reason why education costs have skyrocketed, because a 4-year degree is among the last paths to a stable middle-class existence. But that path is shrinking as the degrees themselves become less valuable and the rich start pulling up the ladders they themselves climbed to the top.



Your recent contributions in this thread largely consisted of condescendingly telling a CPA and an estate/ tax planning attorney that we don't understand how much the rich really pay in taxes, which started us off on a bad foot. I work for these people and am intimately familiar with their finances. So I know what I'm talking about here. But I apologize for calling you a bootlicker.



I made no such claim. I stated that 70 years ago, it was better to be a blue-collar worker in America, and that is undeniably true. To the extent the GOP likes to worship a nonexistent golden age, it's the social structures of the 50s. But they have no interest in bringing back labor unions and widespread prosperity.

You can pelt me with your elitist IPA empties if you must

It's probably an unfavorable opinion here, but I truly believe the issue at heart is not caused by individual or corporate greed, though it certainly isn't helping.

For me, it has everything to do with monetary policy, specifically fiat currency.

There is a whole bevy of impressive financial work done in the last 10+ years and there seems to be momentum around the idea that rise of both inequality and volatility is a results of going off the gold standard. There is still more to be studied, but the primary premise is that with more "cash" (effectively, capital) floating around the economy, it was churned over and over again to generate growth. But the biggest winners of that growth were those who had access to the growing capital. You know, the whole compounding thing.

Take a look at these two charts. The similarities are striking. Once the capital had adequate time to compound, inequality started to shine through. Over time, more compounding, even more inequality. Going off the gold standard did what it was supposed to do...grow the economy. But those pesky unintended consequences have shown their face.

1-13-20pov-f1.png


m1.gif


I honestly have no idea how, in the face if even more QE that the Fed is calling far, that inequality will be solved. You brought up the starter home example. If you are trying to build a home, profitably, on 2.5X median earnings in a community, you are either going to have to 1) build a really small home compared to recent trends or 2) have localities provide significant incentives to produce affordable homes.

For example, according to the NHB, the average construction cost of a new home is 61% of the price of the home, and was $114 per sq foot. The median household income was $68K in 2019. For argument sake, let's say a home price target for "starter" was $200,000. Well, for that price, construction costs would need to be $122K (61% * 200K). Well, that gives you a sq footage of 1,070 feet. For reference, here is the graph of home sizes.

SS0220_Graph1.jpg


So, we need much smaller houses than what is generally available today. For most people, their apartment is probably as big or near the size of said "starter home" based on affordability. The irony is that the 1950 average home size was between 950-1000 square feet. When did homes start to get noticeably bigger...

Picture19.jpg


August of 1971 was the birth of fiat currency. Money had to go somewhere.
 

snoopdog

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Just took a peak at he US debt clock.

Total debt is $27 Trillion. Which is bad, but not as bad as unfunded liabilities at $154 Trillion.
Total US wealth is approximately $110 Trillion, which theoretically makes the US bankrupt.
So if the government does want to increase taxes significantly on the top 1%, it will be largely symbolic, because the top 1% will bolt and the USA will whither.
It’s actually getting worse than I imagined.
 

SonofOahu

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I came in here looking for an economic discussion and apparently a theology lesson broke out. Peace, y'all.
 

RDU Irish

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Sorry guys but I am highly entertained at Whiskey and Toronto being so morally opposed to wealth and our tax code and ultra rich soaking of society while they serve the billionaire class efforts to pay minimal taxes. LO freaking L.

Then the selfishness of demonizing offshoring of work - what happened to taking from the well off to give to the poor? https://twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/1093554223692828673 Seems like something the Pope should be cheering on - but then again it is harder to pimp out the poor if there are fewer horror stories to sell.

I am all for taxing consumption more than work and saving, then give monthly stipend to all citizens to offset taxes on some nominal amount of consumption. Never going to happen though.
 

NorthDakota

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I came in here looking for an economic discussion and apparently a theology lesson broke out. Peace, y'all.

Economics and theology go hand in hand! To some folks.

Sorry guys but I am highly entertained at Whiskey and Toronto being so morally opposed to wealth and our tax code and ultra rich soaking of society while they serve the billionaire class efforts to pay minimal taxes. LO freaking L.

Then the selfishness of demonizing offshoring of work - what happened to taking from the well off to give to the poor? https://twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/1093554223692828673 Seems like something the Pope should be cheering on - but then again it is harder to pimp out the poor if there are fewer horror stories to sell.

I am all for taxing consumption more than work and saving, then give monthly stipend to all citizens to offset taxes on some nominal amount of consumption. Never going to happen though.

Does Whiskey work for the billionaire class? If hes a tax planning and estate guy, I mean... that can be helping "the little guy" out or even 1% types without being a servant to billionaires.
 

TorontoGold

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Sorry guys but I am highly entertained at Whiskey and Toronto being so morally opposed to wealth and our tax code and ultra rich soaking of society while they serve the billionaire class efforts to pay minimal taxes. LO freaking L.

Then the selfishness of demonizing offshoring of work - what happened to taking from the well off to give to the poor? https://twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/1093554223692828673 Seems like something the Pope should be cheering on - but then again it is harder to pimp out the poor if there are fewer horror stories to sell.

I am all for taxing consumption more than work and saving, then give monthly stipend to all citizens to offset taxes on some nominal amount of consumption. Never going to happen though.

Wild that people with actual experience in the field are offering their perspective on how to make things better for the working class. Or, you know, getting opinions from people with no clue that parrot talking points from Rush Limbaugh.
 

Whiskeyjack

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It's probably an unfavorable opinion here, but I truly believe the issue at heart is not caused by individual or corporate greed, though it certainly isn't helping.

For me, it has everything to do with monetary policy, specifically fiat currency.

That's fair, and I didn't mean to oversimplify the motives that lead to our current situation. But it seems clear that the last time Americans enjoyed widespread prosperity, we were largely manufacturing our own stuff, grew our own food, and our monetary policy was based on something more than wishful thinking. Moving in that direction again would solve many other issues by generating lots of dignified well-paying jobs. So while corporate greed may have only been a contributing factor in getting us here, it's likely to be the most significant obstacle to fixing things.
 

RDU Irish

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That's fair, and I didn't mean to oversimplify the motives that lead to our current situation. But it seems clear that the last time Americans enjoyed widespread prosperity, we were largely manufacturing our own stuff, growing our own food, and our monetary policy was based on something more than wishful thinking. Moving in that direction again would solve many other issues by generating lots of dignified well-paying jobs. So while corporate greed may have only been a contributing factor in getting us here, it's likely to be the most significant obstacle to fixing things.

"Dignified well-paying jobs" - is there no dignity in cleaning toilets or stocking shelves? I find it more horrific the number of people who think they are above such work. https://twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/1093554223692828673 Those living under $2/day so dramatically reduced and we are whining about Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos? If that is the byproduct of such annihilation of abject poverty I will take it all day and twice on Sunday.

Evil Trump had real wage growth for the first time in most of our lives prior to Covid. I find that to be a societal good thing. My son makes $15/hour bussing tables on weekends - 12 hours a week - $180 x 50 weeks = $9000 a year working Sat/Sun 9am-3pm. But most kids are above that and tons of high school dropouts wouldn't be caught dead doing that work.

I am more disgusted by pervasive entitlement than I am of excessive wealth. Not to hard to go get yours. Mind your own knitting. And wealth historically does not survive more than a couple generations so no need to be obsessing about Jeff Bezos being too wealthy because it will correct itself in good time.
 

Wild Bill

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That's fair, and I didn't mean to oversimplify the motives that lead to our current situation. But it seems clear that the last time Americans enjoyed widespread prosperity, we were largely manufacturing our own stuff, growing our own food, and our monetary policy was based on something more than wishful thinking. Moving in that direction again would solve many other issues by generating lots of dignified well-paying jobs. So while corporate greed may have only been a contributing factor in getting us here, it's likely to be the most significant obstacle to fixing things.

Basically usury is whipping labor's ass right now. Unless it changes, we'll continue to decline both economically and culturally. I think that's the hardest thing for right leaning people to understand - the cutlural rot is made possible by the economic systems we celebrate.

I understand why it's dififcult to grasp. I've either been programmed or it's just in my nature to be what most Americans consider fiscally conservative. It was very difficult for me to critique my own beliefs on the matter but everyone on the right should really think about what we're defending.

Why would anyone on the right give cover to a guy like Jess Bezos? This guy uses his fortune to make sure I don't get the benefits of so called free market capitalism if it interferes with his interests, and would probably have me shot on sight for my political opinions, so why the hell would I, or anyone on the right, give him any sort of political cover? And this isn't just Bezos. Roughly 99% of the top 1% fully agree with Bezos, and have nothing but contempt for anyone with social values to the right of Elizabeth Warren.

People have a right to their labor and a right to own private property. Whether Jeff Bezos and his crew have a right to what they've earned, the right to be trillionaires and monopolize markets isn't something I'm willing to defend, even if I agree them. They can kiss my ass.

Snoop Disclaimer: I make money off the capital I've accumulated, and I earned the money on my own to acquire the capital. Mommy and Daddy taught me how to work but didn't get me the trust fund I requested.
 

Legacy

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I thought Whiskey articulated that the acquisition of wealth should be founded on moral and religious principles and that good government should live in accordance with the justice and charity of Jesus Christ, especially with regard to those that live on the margins of society.

As NoDak said: "Economics and theology go hand in hand!"
 
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snoopdog

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Basically usury is whipping labor's ass right now. Unless it changes, we'll continue to decline both economically and culturally. I think that's the hardest thing for right leaning people to understand - the cutlural rot is made possible by the economic systems we celebrate.

I understand why it's dififcult to grasp. I've either been programmed or it's just in my nature to be what most Americans consider fiscally conservative. It was very difficult for me to critique my own beliefs on the matter but everyone on the right should really think about what we're defending.

Why would anyone on the right give cover to a guy like Jess Bezos? This guy uses his fortune to make sure I don't get the benefits of so called free market capitalism if it interferes with his interests, and would probably have me shot on sight for my political opinions, so why the hell would I, or anyone on the right, give him any sort of political cover? And this isn't just Bezos. Roughly 99% of the top 1% fully agree with Bezos, and have nothing but contempt for anyone with social values to the right of Elizabeth Warren.

People have a right to their labor and a right to own private property. Whether Jeff Bezos and his crew have a right to what they've earned, the right to be trillionaires and monopolize markets isn't something I'm willing to defend, even if I agree them. They can kiss my ass.

Snoop Disclaimer: I make money off the capital I've accumulated, and I earned the money on my own to acquire the capital. Mommy and Daddy taught me how to work but didn't get me the trust fund I requested.

FWIW, I don't like what Amazon has been able to do. In fact my family has marching orders, directly from General Snoopdog, that nothing will ever be purchased from Amazon. We support local as much as we possibly can.
My involvement in this thread was predicated on Whisky's claim that anybody who supports Capitalism is a "Bootlicker"...which I take with the greatest offense.
I also bristle at the intimation that because Capitalism isn't perfect that...…... obviously Socialism is a better economic system.
 
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Wild Bill

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FWIW, I don't like what Amazon has been able to do. In fact my family has marching orders, directly from General Snoopdog, that nothing will ever be purchased from Amazon. We support local as much as we possibly can.
My involvement in this thread was predicated on Whisky's claim that anybody who supports Capitalism is a "Booklicker"...which I take with the greatest offense.
I also bristle at the intimation that because Capitalism isn't perfect that...…... obviously Socialism is a better economic system.

When people are faced with the threat of the state taking something they've earned, and the mob defends the state, I understand how it can come off as offensive. I doubt Whiskey would advocate the state seizing your property or stripping citizens of the right to own property. I think his critiques of current economic system/policy are fair and something worth considering, especially for those on the right. Capitalism vs socialism is a false dichotomy. Our current system demonstrates that - ruthless capitalism is the best thing ever when our wonderful elite are shoveling money into their pockets and generous socialism is an absolute must when they find themselves in financial pinch.

There's a better way.
 

RDU Irish

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When people are faced with the threat of the state taking something they've earned, and the mob defends the state, I understand how it can come off as offensive. I doubt Whiskey would advocate the state seizing your property or stripping citizens of the right to own property. I think his critiques of current economic system/policy are fair and something worth considering, especially for those on the right. Capitalism vs socialism is a false dichotomy. Our current system demonstrates that - ruthless capitalism is the best thing ever when our wonderful elite are shoveling money into their pockets and generous socialism is an absolute must when they find themselves in financial pinch.

There's a better way.

Unless you are Jeff Bezos of course. (gotta start somewhere)
 

Wild Bill

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Unless you are Jeff Bezos of course. (gotta start somewhere)

Does Jeff Bezos apply principled free market economics when it comes to his competition or other people in general?

He built a business and that's great. I give him a lot of credit. Should we just let him do what he wants now, even if it's objectively bad for the rest of us?

If I'm really good at banking should society give me the freedom to lend my neighbors money at a 250% APR? I could make a killing. Of course, I wouldn't peddle those loans to my neighbors b/c I know the consquences, and I'd pay the price myself. But I can peddle them in other places that have no affect on me and that's good bc I built a business and employed people?
 
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Whiskeyjack

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"Dignified well-paying jobs" - is there no dignity in cleaning toilets or stocking shelves?

There certainly can be, but the man who diligently cleans toilets and stocks shelves is entitled to a living wage that would allow him to support a wife and children. Our capitalist overlords ensure such jobs don't do that.

Those living under $2/day so dramatically reduced and we are whining about Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos? If that is the byproduct of such annihilation of abject poverty I will take it all day and twice on Sunday.

There are a lot of Americans still living in abject poverty, which is outrageous given how wealthy and powerful we are. But there are millions more whose labor we benefit from toiling under slave-like conditions for American multinational companies abroad.

I find that to be a societal good thing. My son makes $15/hour bussing tables on weekends - 12 hours a week - $180 x 50 weeks = $9000 a year working Sat/Sun 9am-3pm.

It's good he's busing tables and working hard. But as the son of a successful Notre Dame alumnus, he surely has larger opportunities in front of him. There are millions of Americans who don't have a good way out of the hospitality industry, which is brutal by the way. Long hours, rarely free on weekends or holidays, constantly getting abused by entitled patrons, etc. I know several people who've worked in that industry their whole lives, and it's not conducive to steadily improving yourself or stability.

I am more disgusted by pervasive entitlement than I am of excessive wealth. Not to hard to go get yours. Mind your own knitting. And wealth historically does not survive more than a couple generations so no need to be obsessing about Jeff Bezos being too wealthy because it will correct itself in good time.

I've had this conversation with wizards many times; you dramatically overestimate how easy it is to "go get yours" in modern America. Even though you came from humble beginnings and ended up at ND, I'd bet your parents made significant sacrifices that gave you advantages most others don't have. You can't discount that and focus only on the material side of things. It's all connected.

Basically usury is whipping labor's ass right now. Unless it changes, we'll continue to decline both economically and culturally. I think that's the hardest thing for right leaning people to understand - the cutlural rot is made possible by the economic systems we celebrate.

I understand why it's dififcult to grasp. I've either been programmed or it's just in my nature to be what most Americans consider fiscally conservative. It was very difficult for me to critique my own beliefs on the matter but everyone on the right should really think about what we're defending.

Why would anyone on the right give cover to a guy like Jess Bezos? This guy uses his fortune to make sure I don't get the benefits of so called free market capitalism if it interferes with his interests, and would probably have me shot on sight for my political opinions, so why the hell would I, or anyone on the right, give him any sort of political cover? And this isn't just Bezos. Roughly 99% of the top 1% fully agree with Bezos, and have nothing but contempt for anyone with social values to the right of Elizabeth Warren.
.

FWIW, I don't like what Amazon has been able to do. In fact my family has marching orders, directly from General Snoopdog, that nothing will ever be purchased from Amazon. We support local as much as we possibly can.

Good for you.

My involvement in this thread was predicated on Whisky's claim that anybody who supports Capitalism is a "Booklicker"...which I take with the greatest offense.

You jumped in to imply I don't understand how much tax the 1% really pays. The bootlicker comment came later. But to follow up on Bill's point above, our elites beam high-def video of the most degrading pornography imaginable directly into the home of every American family today. They are constantly undermining labor laws so they can pay you less for longer hours and provide you less benefits in the process. And the Feds haven't cared to keep them in check for many decades.

Some choose to direct their anger at the Feds for negligence instead of the elites, arguing that great wealth is inherently corrupting, so we should always expect them to be ruthlessly self-interested. That's at least a coherent response. But to actively defend guys like Bezos and Gates? I hate to quote Frog Twitter, but you can see why they started calling normie Republicans "cucks". You must enjoy being humiliated to defend an unaccountable tycoon who is constantly looking to undermine your interests.

I also bristle at the intimation that because Capitalism isn't perfect that...…... obviously Socialism is a better economic system.

Who's arguing for socialism? We need an executive that's capable of compelling our elites to serve the Common Good instead of themselves. I don't particularly care if he's a president, an emperor, a king, or a general.
 

RDU Irish

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Does Jeff Bezos apply principled free market economics when it comes to his competition or other people in general?

Why would he hold himself to a different standard than the rest of the world? And do you screen all websites to see if they use AWS so you can boycott that too? That is where they make all of their real profits, not the retail.

Warren Buffett could pay himself a larger salary if he wanted to pay more taxes than his staff. He makes less income than they do - used the tax code to his advantage to build wealth while his personal consumption was miniscule. And he will give it all to charity and pay no estate tax either. Biggest tax "cheat" of all time.

Millionaires next door - live well below you means and save like a freak. You will be rich in your 90s and nobody knows to hate you for it.
 

Wild Bill

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Why would he hold himself to a different standard than the rest of the world? And do you screen all websites to see if they use AWS so you can boycott that too? That is where they make all of their real profits, not the retail.

Warren Buffett could pay himself a larger salary if he wanted to pay more taxes than his staff. He makes less income than they do - used the tax code to his advantage to build wealth while his personal consumption was miniscule. And he will give it all to charity and pay no estate tax either. Biggest tax "cheat" of all time.

Millionaires next door - live well below you means and save like a freak. You will be rich in your 90s and nobody knows to hate you for it.

He's not going to hold himself accountable, the left won't hold him accountable b/c he'll align with their insane social values to make sure they don't regulate him out of business, the right won't hold him accountable b/c muh free markets, and society in general won't hold him accountable b/c the elite will continue to divide the plebs so they can earn record profits.

I'm just sitting here hoping something changes, like the right wing critique of capitalism, earning money and living below my means.
 

snoopdog

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Does Jeff Bezos apply principled free market economics when it comes to his competition or other people in general?

He built a business and that's great. I give him a lot of credit. Should we just let him do what he wants now, even if it's objectively bad for the rest of us?

If I'm really good at banking should society give me the freedom to lend my neighbors money at a 250% APR? I could make a killing. Of course, I wouldn't peddle those loans to my neighbors b/c I know the consquences, and I'd pay the price myself. But I can peddle them in other places that have no affect on me and that's good bc I built a business and employed people?

IMO Bezos isn't principled. But it's the job of the Gov't to enforce antitrust laws, not Bezos.

I hated the Corporate tax cuts Trump put in, especially as it related to Amazon and Apple. IMO these companies also should have been taxed to the hilt during Covid shutdowns. They benefited more than any other Corp as a result of the forced shutdowns.

The laws are there to regulate antitrust, its just up to the gov't to act.
 

Whiskeyjack

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IMO Bezos isn't principled. But it's the job of the Gov't to enforce antitrust laws, not Bezos.

I hated the Corporate tax cuts Trump put in, especially as it related to Amazon and Apple. IMO these companies also should have been taxed to the hilt during Covid shutdowns. They benefited more than any other Corp as a result of the forced shutdowns.

The laws are there to regulate antitrust, its just up to the gov't to act.

But the elites that the Feds are supposed to regulate have obviously captured the institutions designed to keep them in check. So is it rational to focus our ire on a dysfunctional political process (which seems to literally be driving people insane now), or on the bad actors who could actually change things?
 

tussin

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Who's arguing for socialism? We need an executive that's capable of compelling our elites to serve the Common Good instead of themselves. I don't particularly care if he's a president, an emperor, a king, or a general.

You're made emperor tomorrow. What laws do you enact to address these problems?
 

fightingirish26

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If you want what others have, that is jealousy.

If you want what others have, but don’t have it yourself, and therefore do not want others to have it either, that is envy.

I’m not sure where this discussion is going, but I think that this should be a consideration too.

Wanting health care, housing and food: jealousy
 

fightingirish26

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I used "Hardline" to describe the revolutionary aspect of converting over to a communist state. The Bourgeoisie will never happily subvert themselves to the change so they have to be dealt with. All conversions (maybe Cuba not so much) dealt with the Bourgeoisie very harshly. Prisons, death sentences, re-educational camps, expropriation of property and assets. So hardline was a descriptive to address the conversion not Communism as a theory.

But what is different today than 100 years ago is "Wealth". 100 years ago wealth was physical. It was land, forests, water, food. The lower classes had little access to Wealth and virtual no way to access it.

Today, wealth is intellectual. Bezos, Gates, Buffet......all men with over 100 billion of "ASSUMED" wealth don't actually own anything. Other than share certificates that put a random valuation on the shares, which change by the second. If Bezos, Gates or Buffet died today...so what. The shares would still be the shares and nothing would change. Who cares who owns the shares.
But wealth/money is always a very emotional talking point. And the left are using the wealth issue as flashpoint to try and convert society from capitalism to a far left form of Socialism.
But they are doing it dishonestly. It's like Whiskey Jack's graphs showing the "wealthy". The only reason why the wealthy are getting richer is because interest rates are at a record low and society has to pour money into the stock market driving up the share value of the FANG stocks making Bezos stock position arbitrarily more valuable. But it is pure illusion. Bezos could "suffer" an 80-100% drop in wealth overnight due to an accounting irregularity, competitor, change in US law, market correction.

Sure the US could take Bezos share position away from him and replace him as CEO with a Bureaucrat. But they won't. Unless of course the US goes Hardline Communist.

can't get the image to post so the graph is in the link...obviously a LateStageCapitalism reddit isn't the best source but the graph is cited. You already sound scared, this might not help.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/i79oab/til_there_is_a_bigger_gap_in_wealth_distribution/
 

RDU Irish

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There certainly can be, but the man who diligently cleans toilets and stocks shelves is entitled to a living wage that would allow him to support a wife and children. Our capitalist overlords ensure such jobs don't do that.



There are a lot of Americans still living in abject poverty, which is outrageous given how wealthy and powerful we are. But there are millions more whose labor we benefit from toiling under slave-like conditions for American multinational companies abroad.



It's good he's busing tables and working hard. But as the son of a successful Notre Dame alumnus, he surely has larger opportunities in front of him. There are millions of Americans who don't have a good way out of the hospitality industry, which is brutal by the way. Long hours, rarely free on weekends or holidays, constantly getting abused by entitled patrons, etc. I know several people who've worked in that industry their whole lives, and it's not conducive to steadily improving yourself or stability.



I've had this conversation with wizards many times; you dramatically overestimate how easy it is to "go get yours" in modern America. Even though you came from humble beginnings and ended up at ND, I'd bet your parents made significant sacrifices that gave you advantages most others don't have. You can't discount that and focus only on the material side of things. It's all connected.





Good for you.



You jumped in to imply I don't understand how much tax the 1% really pays. The bootlicker comment came later. But to follow up on Bill's point above, our elites beam high-def video of the most degrading pornography imaginable directly into the home of every American family today. They are constantly undermining labor laws so they can pay you less for longer hours and provide you less benefits in the process. And the Feds haven't cared to keep them in check for many decades.

Some choose to direct their anger at the Feds for negligence instead of the elites, arguing that great wealth is inherently corrupting, so we should always expect them to be ruthlessly self-interested. That's at least a coherent response. But to actively defend guys like Bezos and Gates? I hate to quote Frog Twitter, but you can see why they started calling normie Republicans "cucks". You must enjoy being humiliated to defend an unaccountable tycoon who is constantly looking to undermine your interests.



Who's arguing for socialism? We need an executive that's capable of compelling our elites to serve the Common Good instead of themselves. I don't particularly care if he's a president, an emperor, a king, or a general.

Really hate to argue with someone about 300% smarter than me. Agree with a lot of your moral premise. Don't agree that government is to mandate and control against a lot of this. I think government should set boundaries and incentives for moral behavior but a whole crap ton of issues have a wide berth between what is between you/us and God and you/us and government.

First bolded describes my wife's job to a T - as a nurse practitioner working newborn. Entitlement is not exclusive to high tax brackets and poor life choices are not exclusive to low tax brackets. Shitty working conditions happen to well paid folks as well. I detasseled corn when I was 13 to 18 years old for two weeks each summer getting up at 4:30AM to ride a bus for an hour and a half and work 10-12 hours before riding the bus back an hour and a half to get home. Every day for about two weeks straight. Tape up those scrapes and blisters and get back out there. Like to think it built character and provided me opportunity when there were no other jobs all summer but you seem to define that as some form of slave labor. Better slave labor than no labor - besides I CHOSE to get up every morning and punch that clock.

Second bolded. The answer is closer to Wiz than to you, IMHO. I know first hand how pervasive poverty is in the psyche of many. Bad choices tend to compound over time and one bad decision can also derail a lifetime of good choices in a heartbeat. Having known so many people that only work if they have to and happy to live off of virtually nothing, I do not have a ton of sympathy for those that choose such a lifestyle and find enabling of such quite immoral. And if many do not have the basic need to show up to work on time and sober, they simply won't. Raising their income without work will only raise their sin.

Very often I have people pushing for early retirement at age 62, chomping at the bit to collect their social security check. Much rather live off of less now with a clear path to poverty as they age and not work ASAP, than to have a more comfortable, sustainable and independent retirement by waiting a few more years. 1/6th of people age 55-65 are on SSDI- that is just an early retirement plan for many and added benefit of the pain doc shooting them up on reg. Payment to the MD for signing off on their unbearable disability that humans worked through for 99.9% of human history- we must feel zero pain at all times! Toxic. Enabling. Immoral.

Also, poor in America is still upper 10% by global standards. As the overlords run out of people making $2/day and have to pay $3, $5, $10/day..... Raw subsistence existence has diminished more in the last 40 years than the previous 1000 years. As flawed as our version of capitalism is, it is still a champion worth supporting. The corporatism controlling all levels of government is the scourge. The only reasonable answer I can see is to reduce the size of government - otherwise it is just handing the howitzer to a different devil every four years. Amazes me people mock the FBI and DNC staging a coup as a conspiracy just as the weaponizing of the IRS against conservative groups was laughed away, maybe even wiped away -like with a cloth? TYRANNY - and republicans are enablers for not holding ANYONE to account.

Moral to the story - American Dream is there for anyone who looks within themselves to attain it and still pretty solid chance even if you walk around with your hand out.
 

snoopdog

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But the elites that the Feds are supposed to regulate have obviously captured the institutions designed to keep them in check. So is it rational to focus our ire on a dysfunctional political process (which seems to literally be driving people insane now), or on the bad actors who could actually change things?

Bezos was just a guy like you and me 20 years ago. He had a great idea and made well. Kind of like Pablo Escobar without the killings. And like Escobar, Bezos will eventually end up in court for the nature of his actions, and just the Medellin Cartel, Amazon will get broken up.

But I for one will welcome the next Capitalist Overlord and put an excellent shine on his/her boots with my tongue.
 
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