Demand for a 13th Game

[T Town Tommy]

SEC Commissioner Roy Kramer set up divisions, strategic scheduling, and a conference championship game to give one or more of his teams a definitive advantage in the polls preceding bowl selection. He coupled that with the extensive bowl tie-ins. The purpose was to stop C0-Champions like BYU but to stop Notre Dame from jumping Alabama (or any other SEC) team on New Year's Day and jumping from #5 to #1 and winning the NC.

If you can't beat 'em, box 'em out.

If one team can play a 13 game schedule everybody should have the option.

And yet the very first SEC championship game would have knocked out Alabama if they would have lost to Florida. They didn't and went on to beat Miami in the NCG. Your argument doesn't hold a lot of water. Kramer didn't give a damn about ND when coming up with the SEC CG scenerio. He took the risk of adding the game at a time when the risk heavily outweighed the rewards. And many other SECCG's have had the ability to knock out an SEC team from national title contention.

If ND is so concerned about CCGs, then join a conference. If the Big 12 expands and has a CCG, then ND is going to be at a disadvantage now. The only one blocking ND is... ND. ND seems to want the best of both worlds here. Don't want to join a conference primarily due to the revenue sharing that would be imposed on them but want to complain because the system is unfair. ND had the absolute best deal under the BCS model as one could get. Under the new system it appears they may not. Join a conference or be prepared to have to go undefeated most years to make the four team format.

 

[Huntr]

If the Big 12 expands, ND will likely have to join a conference. If so, it will be the ACC.

I'm not totally against it, I just want them Independent, if it's possible. If no, ACC it is.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I have said it eleventy billion times. The lack of an additional (13th) game is going to hurt ND with the playoff committee.

ND will have to join a conference if the Big 12 expands and gets a championship. The process used by the selection committee this year makes it very apparent to me that a 11-1 ND team will not make it in the top 4 after the conclusion of conference championship games. Unless they hold out for the eight team playoff....even then....

Join the ACC.

Problem solved.

Yes and Yes. I enjoy Notre Dame's traditions as much as the next guy, but the football program has a yearly goal to win a championship. Suck it up, join the ACC, and battle FSU yearly for the conference title and a chance to win it all. Some traditions just have to end. I think this is one of them, unfortunately. ND can still play a national schedule w/ the OoC games.

 

[Huntr]

Sta, USC, Navy, B1G, some other Power 5 team.

One of those gets left out of OoC sched if ND in ACC. Somethin to chew on.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Sta, USC, Navy, B1G, some other Power 5 team.

One of those gets left out of OoC sched if ND in ACC. Somethin to chew on.

Honestly don't care. I care more about ND getting into the playoffs at this point. That's the ultimate goal. ND is finally going to be backed into a corner and be forced to make a decision. They can't have it both ways.

USC, rotating B1G, Pac12, Big12, SEC (MSU, UM, Purdue, OSU, Stanford, Oklahoma, TX, Georgia, Tennessee), two cupcakes. I'm over the Navy game (and yes, I'm aware of the history). This is just my opinion and what I'd personally like to see. 8 ACC conf games, USC, one other premier Power5 team, two cupcakes. The ACC isn't strong enough top-to-bottom so playing two very good OoC games, and then winning the ACC will always be enough to considered imo.

 

[ndfi78]

Y'all do realize that it was very possible for the Big12 to get TWO teams into the playoffs this year at 11-1, right?

Wisconsin was favored over OSU, no one would have been surprised if FSU lost to GT.

Either of those happen and the Big12 has one team in, both and then Baylor and TCU are in. If that happens would everyone be clamoring to dump the Conf Championship games?

 

[wizards8507]

Play the big 12 champion at their place for the 13th game.

Or Dallas or some place.

 

[wizards8507]

13-0 trumps 12-0.

Yeah but that's irrelevant because you're never going to have four 12-0 teams. In a year with a 13-0 team and a 12-0 team, they're both getting in no matter what. The "trump" is irrelevant since there will never be a decision between 13-0 OR 12-0.

 

[IrishLion]

Yeah but that's irrelevant because you're never going to have four 12-0 teams. In a year with a 13-0 team and a 12-0 team, they're both getting in no matter what. The "trump" is irrelevant since there will never be a decision between 13-0 OR 12-0.

What about 12-1 vs 11-1?

 

[wizards8507]

What about 12-1 vs 11-1?

I'm optimistic that 11-1 where your "worst" opponents are Navy, Rice, and Purdue will beat a 12-1 against SMU, Northwestern State, and Buffalo.

It's impossible to isolate the variables in just one year of committee selection because both TCU and Baylor had lack of a 13th game AND a crappy schedule. Maybe the 13th game would have put them past Ohio State (who also had a pretty crappy schedule), but would it have put them past an 11-1 team with a strong schedule? We don't know.

 

[NDohio]

I am ready to join the ACC full time. It will help with a more balanced schedule and give a more realistic path to the playoffs.

 

[wizards8507]

I am ready to join the ACC full time. It will help with a more balanced schedule and give a more realistic path to the playoffs.

Football independence isn't like FieldTurf. It's not an issue that NDNation (and me) will be outraged over and nobody else. Football independence is a piss-off-your-big-donors-and-alumni-base type issue.

 

[PANDFAN]

Join the ACC.

Problem solved.

AMEN!!!!!! makes an easier path as well....i would be completely fine w/ this

 

[kmoose]

Joining the ACC never got a 7-5 football team into the playoffs. If ND gets back to being a perennial contender, they will have no problem getting into the playoffs.

 

[Cali_domer]

Join the ACC ...
I use to be a hard core indy or bust guy but no more...

 

[Wild Bill]

You have to assume Swarbrick has his finger on the pulse of the committee with respect to this issue, especially after the big 12 was left out of the playoffs. I trust his judgment and suspect we'll be in the ACC shortly if he thinks the title game is going to play a major role going forward.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm thinking this (ND to the ACC?) will be an issue with one of the sharpest divides between alumni and non-alumni fans.

 

[Cali_domer]

I'm thinking this (ND to the ACC?) will be an issue with one of the sharpest divides between alumni and non-alumni fans.

I imagine so, but not all alumni are adamant regarding independence.

Heck we're only kinda of independent now, a conference already dictates a portion of our schedule.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Joining the ACC is much easier said than done however. Keep in mind by doing that, the conflict with NBC would have to be resolved somehow. Plus I would imagine the ACC would demand ND share their revenue. Then the scheduling issue comes in to play. ND would very well lose one or all of their traditional rivals. They could still schedule USC, Navy, and Stanford every year but the question would be if they would want to given they are now in a conference in which playing West Coast teams then would not be as beneficial in recruiting as it would be to play east coast and southern schools. Just a lot of things to think about... money being the biggest and tradition being second.

 

[Cali_domer]

Joining the ACC is much easier said than done however. Keep in mind by doing that, the conflict with NBC would have to be resolved somehow. Plus I would imagine the ACC would demand ND share their revenue. Then the scheduling issue comes in to play. ND would very well lose one or all of their traditional rivals. They could still schedule USC, Navy, and Stanford every year but the question would be if they would want to given they are now in a conference in which playing West Coast teams then would not be as beneficial in recruiting as it would be to play east coast and southern schools. Just a lot of things to think about... money being the biggest and tradition being second.

ACC already said if we joined they would work with the NBC deal.

The schedule would be difficult but I bet Stanford would be dropped.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I'm thinking this (ND to the ACC?) will be an issue with one of the sharpest divides between alumni and non-alumni fans.

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know the answer, but why are you saying alumni will care so deeply about staying independent versus non-alumni?

On another note: Long (or someone, I forget now) did hint that big market teams would be easier to take. Aka OSU over either of the Big12 teams. Aka ND (when applicable) over any small market team. However, people who are in the camp of "We're ND, they'll take us over team X no matter what," need to realize that there are 5 power conferences and at the moment only 4 playoff spots. It's not out of realm of possibilities that any given year could produce a 12-1 SEC Champ, 12-1 PAC Champ, 12-1 ACC Champ, 12-1 B1G Champ, and 12-1 Big12 Champ (if they add one). Anyone who thinks that an 11-1 or even 12-0 non-conference-affiliated ND is a 100% lock to take one of four spots when up against five Power conference Champions is arrogant as hell. 13-0 ACC Champ FSU is a #3 seed folks. Going undefeated isn't the end all to this debate. And losing one game means one less win AND no conference championship. ND would basically be setting themselves up for failure because the odds of going undefeated are very slim (especially with the way Swarbrick has been scheduling).

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I see two things happening: Non-ND people HATED ND's BCS deal. Hated it. This could be a chance for the committee to force ND into a conference or risk being left out of the playoffs every year. Also, this could be a way to force more conference alignment, more TV deals, etc. The Power5 is real and I just get a feeling that the higher ups want to make this format for big market teams only because that's where the most money lies.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm thinking this (ND to the ACC?) will be an issue with one of the sharpest divides between alumni and non-alumni fans.

Why do you believe that would be the case?

Do fans that are also alumni connect football independence to their academic experience/degree?

 

[RDU Irish]

Thirteenth game only counts if it is playoff in nature. playing the top team from your opposite division normally puts you in position to put a top 25 win on your resume at the time it matters most. A 13th game makes no sense for ND unless it has some way of being done at year end against someone who has proven themselves over the course of the season.

If anything, I would cut back to 11 games and give us another bye week. We go undefeated and we are in the playoffs, no doubt about it. This year we would have been in if our only loss was to FSU. Rather than beat our kids up more, why not drop a game to give us another bye week in the middle of the season?

Putting USC or Stanford to finish the season is plenty of star power for our final game to leave a good taste in people's mouth if we beat them. If we were to play BYU or another independent first week of December that would work too, but I would rather put a bye after Navy every year in return for that game rather than bump us to 13 games.

 

[TK22867]

For me, it comes down to whether or not the playoff remains at 4 teams. If it does, I think ND has to go full-time in a conference.

If it goes to 8, we'll be just fine as an independent.

We have to trust that Jack knows what is going on behind the scenes and will position us accordingly.

 

[wizards8507]

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know the answer, but why are you saying alumni will care so deeply about staying independent versus non-alumni?

In a League of Its Own // News // Notre Dame Magazine // University of Notre Dame

In his book, Shake Down The Thunder, Murray Sperber described the outcome of the 1926 discussions with the Big Ten:

"In the end, the Big Ten’s failure to admit Notre Dame was based on misperception, not reality. The conference adamantly refused N.D.’s request “to appoint a committee to visit” the Catholic school and “conduct an investigation of all conditions, both academic and athletic.” Instead, the faculty reps chose to believe the rumors about Notre Dame, especially those spread by [Michigan coach Fielding] Yost and [University of Chicago coach Amos Alonzo] Stagg. For “Academic Men,” representing universities that considered themselves on the cutting edge of the scholarly research of the day, their acceptance of anti-Notre Dame gossip was reprehensible."

 

[Cali_domer]

Why do you believe that would be the case?

Do fans that are also alumni connect football independence to their academic experience/degree?

If ndnation is a gauge then he is correct. But I think if ND has no good options(in regards to playoff and are at big disadvantage) the alumni will except it(Not happily).

Reading nd nation shows me they want to keep it but they also see their maybe a issue coming(with conferences pushing there weight around).

 

[wizards8507]

Thirteenth game only counts if it is playoff in nature. playing the top team from your opposite division normally puts you in position to put a top 25 win on your resume at the time it matters most. A 13th game makes no sense for ND unless it has some way of being done at year end against someone who has proven themselves over the course of the season.

I've said this a few times and nobody has responded. Why not "The Notre Dame - Big 12 Classic" played during conference championship week against the Big 12 champion in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City?

 

[IrishLion]

That doesn't really tell me anything, as a "subway alum."

I guess I'm failing to grasp, or simply not appreciating, the Big Ten's failure to look past their issues when considering ND. So what? Those guys couldn't see ND for what it truly was.

What does that have to do with your degree, and its connection to football independence? Is there a connection to your degree and football independence?

 

[wizards8507]

Do fans that are also alumni connect football independence to their academic experience/degree?

There's a lot more to the alumni experience than the academic side. There's a personal connection. A sense of pride. And yes, a piece of that is tied to the football program and its traditions (including independence, playing Navy, natural grass ).

EDIT: I'm NOT turning this into a "you didn't go there so you can't comment" thing. I mentioned that I thought there would be a divide but after that basic comment I'm just responding to a direct question.

 

[IrishLion]

I've said this a few times and nobody has responded. Why not "The Notre Dame - Big 12 Classic" played during conference championship week against the Big 12 champion in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City?

Why would the Big 12 risk an extra game that's not against their own conference?

If they play a conference championship, at least the winner is a conference team. Having their champ play ND would be an unnecessary risk. If ND wins, their conference champ is hung out to dry. Why would they provide a non-conference opponent that opportunity?