Culture

[zelezo vlk]

Alright? I don't mean in ideology to be clear, I mean in tone and snark. Something about it rubs me wrong.

No I mean you comparing him to Shapiro would trigger the hell out of him, I imagine. I knew what ya meant, I just found it humorous.

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[Bluto]

The Week's Matthew Walther just published an article titled "Why my kids aren't getting toys for Christmas":

That last paragraph is spot on. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen kids spend more time playing with large cardboard boxes as opposed to what came in it.

 

[wizards8507]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018...to-residents-metropolitan-areas-must-improve/

 

[zelezo vlk]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018...to-residents-metropolitan-areas-must-improve/

Seems more like something that belongs in the Politics thread, though the reason for the Republicans' lack of success is certainly cultural.

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[Legacy]

Salt Lake County is now minority Mormon, and the impacts are far reaching (SL Tribune)

Independent Latter-day Saint demographer Matt Martinich has estimated that about 40 percent of Latter-day Saints in the United States are “active,” and he guesses that roughly half of Salt Lake County’s members go to church, or roughly 24 percent of the county’s population.

While Salt Lake County's Mormons are decreasing, Utah County south of Salt Lake County's percent of Mormon residents are increasing to 82.18%.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Yeah the Mormons have been hit pretty hard recently. Still in better shape than the Catholic Church in lots of places, but I don't see a rebound.

 

[Legacy]

From an article last year: http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=5403049&itype=CMSID

The LDS Church is well aware of the population shifts in the state, though leaders attribute it more to family decisions than people wanting to live around those of similar religious or political beliefs.

"Many people with families (including church members) have moved to areas where the cost of living may be more affordable or to be closer to new employment centers or schools," LDS Church spokesman Eric Hawkins said recently. "Obviously, this impacts the number of church members in both areas. So you'll see a decrease in [Mormon congregations] in one area and an increase in another."

Still, this growing political and religious divide comes at a time when economic prosperity is driving new businesses to relocate and homes to be constructed along the line between Salt Lake and Utah counties.

 

[wizards8507]

Okay guys, help me out. I'm not a "prosperity gospel" guy, but as my daughters move through their childhood, I find myself walking dangerously close to a philosophical mindset that wealth is an indicator of virtue. I suppose it would be more accurate to propose poverty as an indicator of vice. I know this is morally and theologically bankrupt, but the evidence is pretty strong.

- Sexual immorality leads to poverty, while chastity leads to wealth
- Sloth leads to poverty, while hard work leads to wealth
- Frivolity leads to poverty, while temperance leads to wealth

I want my daughters to be friends with everyone, do works of charity and mercy towards the poor, and recognize the dignity and value of every person. But I can't shake the nagging feeling that so-and-so's parents may have gotten to their current state based on a perverse value structure that they're now instilling in their child, and I don't want that child to be a corrupting influence on my own.

Help!

 

[zelezo vlk]

Okay guys, help me out. I'm not a "prosperity gospel" guy, but as my daughters move through their childhood, I find myself walking dangerously close to a philosophical mindset that wealth is an indicator of virtue. I suppose it would be more accurate to propose poverty as an indicator of vice. I know this is morally and theologically bankrupt, but the evidence is pretty strong.

- Sexual immorality leads to poverty, while chastity leads to wealth
- Sloth leads to poverty, while hard work leads to wealth
- Frivolity leads to poverty, while temperance leads to wealth

I want my daughters to be friends with everyone, do works of charity and mercy towards the poor, and recognize the dignity and value of every person. But I can't shake the nagging feeling that so-and-so's parents may have gotten to their current state based on a perverse value structure that they're now instilling in their child, and I don't want that child to be a corrupting influence on my own.

Help!

Love the poor. Full stop. Carry on, brother.

 

[IrishLax]

Okay guys, help me out. I'm not a "prosperity gospel" guy, but as my daughters move through their childhood, I find myself walking dangerously close to a philosophical mindset that wealth is an indicator of virtue. I suppose it would be more accurate to propose poverty as an indicator of vice. I know this is morally and theologically bankrupt, but the evidence is pretty strong.

- Sexual immorality leads to poverty, while chastity leads to wealth
- Sloth leads to poverty, while hard work leads to wealth
- Frivolity leads to poverty, while temperance leads to wealth

I want my daughters to be friends with everyone, do works of charity and mercy towards the poor, and recognize the dignity and value of every person. But I can't shake the nagging feeling that so-and-so's parents may have gotten to their current state based on a perverse value structure that they're now instilling in their child, and I don't want that child to be a corrupting influence on my own.

Help!

Bruh...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Okay guys, help me out. I'm not a "prosperity gospel" guy, but as my daughters move through their childhood, I find myself walking dangerously close to a philosophical mindset that wealth is an indicator of virtue. I suppose it would be more accurate to propose poverty as an indicator of vice. I know this is morally and theologically bankrupt, but the evidence is pretty strong.

- Sexual immorality leads to poverty, while chastity leads to wealth
- Sloth leads to poverty, while hard work leads to wealth
- Frivolity leads to poverty, while temperance leads to wealth

I want my daughters to be friends with everyone, do works of charity and mercy towards the poor, and recognize the dignity and value of every person. But I can't shake the nagging feeling that so-and-so's parents may have gotten to their current state based on a perverse value structure that they're now instilling in their child, and I don't want that child to be a corrupting influence on my own.

Help!

This isn't wrong, per se, but it's incomplete. Keep in mind that:

1. Class is a significant driver of culture, so families from different socio-economic backgrounds will be prone to different vices; and
2. From a Christian perspective, the point of virtue is to develop one's strengths for the purpose of supporting others.

The Prosperity Gospel bullshit is heretical in lots of ways, but mostly because it misses both of those points. For (1), it encourages people to automatically associate wealth with virtue and poverty with vice, when reality is almost never that simple. And for (2), it tells the well-off that their wealth is a sign of election. If God is clearly pleased with you (due to your financial success), there's no need to put your significant resources at the service of the less fortunate. They just need to bootstrap themselves into election/ financial independence, etc.

This is completely foreign to the Tradition. A very cursory reading of St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory of Nyssa should quickly disabuse any literate Christian of the notion. The rich in any liberal society, almost by definition, generally possess virtues that are conducive to the acquisition of property. But they are also prone to vices that the poor are much more resistant to. The rich are arguably more in need of evangelizing than the poor, since their souls are in greater danger.

As for your kids, it's laudable to be very picky about who their friends are and what sorts of influences they are exposed to. Some of the best people I know are super Catholic families with 6+ kids and a stay-at-home mom. Those households make a lot less than mine does each year, but they've chosen that sacrifice for noble reasons, and I have no concerns about what my sons will be exposed to when they go over to such houses to play.

In sum, virtue is good. And paying close attention to the moral formation of your kids is also good. But associating either of those things with class is a huge mistake.

 

[wizards8507]

This isn't wrong, per se, but it's incomplete. Keep in mind that:

1. Class is a significant driver of culture, so families from different socio-economic backgrounds will be prone to different vices; and
2. From a Christian perspective, the point of virtue is to develop one's strengths for the purpose of supporting others.

The Prosperity Gospel bullshit is heretical in lots of ways, but mostly because it misses both of those points. For (1), it encourages people to automatically associate wealth with virtue and poverty with vice, when reality is almost never that simple. And for (2), it tells the well-off that their wealth is a sign of election. If God is clearly pleased with you (due to your financial success), there's no need to put your significant resources at the service of the less fortunate. They just need to bootstrap themselves into election/ financial independence, etc.

This is completely foreign to the Tradition. A very cursory reading of St. Basil the Great or St. Gregory of Nyssa should quickly disabuse any literate Christian of the notion. The rich in any liberal society, almost by definition, generally possess virtues that are conducive to the acquisition of property. But they are also prone to vices that the poor are much more resistant to. The rich are arguably more in need of evangelizing than the poor, since their souls are in greater danger.

As for your kids, it's laudable to be very picky about who their friends are and what sorts of influences they are exposed to. Some of the best people I know are super Catholic families with 6+ kids and a stay-at-home mom. Those households make a lot less than mine does each year, but they've chosen that sacrifice for noble reasons, and I have no concerns about what my sons will be exposed to when they go over to such houses to play.

In sum, virtue is good. And paying close attention to the moral formation of your kids is also good. But associating either of those things with class is a huge mistake.

I agree with all of this in terms of the moral and theological dimensions. But there are also secular concerns that are still legitimate (I think). For example, low achievement might not be indicative of vice or sin, but it could certainly be indicative of a lack of importance placed on education. It's certainly not as important as the condition of one's soul, but I think it's also legitimate to instill values that promote ordinary human flourishing as well.

Bruh...

Whiskey said my concerns were legitimate, so neener neener.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I agree with all of this in terms of the moral and theological dimensions. But there are also secular concerns that are still legitimate (I think). For example, low achievement might not be indicative of vice or sin, but it could certainly be indicative of a lack of importance placed on education. It's certainly not as important as the condition of one's soul, but I think it's also legitimate to instill values that promote ordinary human flourishing as well.

I'd bet there are lot more illiterate peasants in heaven than "Tiger" parents who obsessed over their kids standardized test scores.

Whiskey said my concerns were legitimate, so neener neener.

Was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, wiz. "Talk me out of despising the poor" isn't a good look.

 

[greyhammer90]

Don't want to pile on, but it's pretty amazing (and a worthy consideration to worry over) how analysis of a centuries old religious text through the lens of recent cultural ideology/bias can shift meaning so radically.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Don't want to pile on, but it's pretty amazing (and a worthy consideration to worry over) how analysis of a centuries old religious text through the lens of recent cultural ideology/bias can shift meaning so radically.

Almost is if an authoritative interpreter is necessary to avoid the corruption of sound doctrine...

 

[Irish YJ]

Almost is if an authoritative interpreter is necessary to avoid the corruption of sound doctrine...

and is this his replacement coming in 2019 (The New Pope). A little confused with the title now knowing that Law is returning.

 

[wizards8507]

I'd bet there are lot more illiterate peasants in heaven than "Tiger" parents who obsessed over their kids standardized test scores.

That's not what I said.

Was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, wiz. "Talk me out of despising the poor" isn't a good look.

That's not what I said, either.

 

[wizards8507]

On the more positive side of things, today I learned that my four year old's preschool class says a prayer of thanksgiving every day before snack time.

Thank you, God, for a happy day
Thank you, God, for friends and play
Thank you, God, for the birds that sing
Thank you, God, for everything

It's kind of goofy and generic but this is a secular preschool so I was pretty blown away.

 

[Legacy]

Someone I know was once in charge of Human Resources for a large part of a multi-national corporation through her hard work, advanced degrees and abilities that led them to promote her over the years to increasingly responsible positions as the corp moved through periods of financial success and mergers. She was then directed to cut staff given the target of half million dollars in salaries as the corp wanted to slim its workforce and improve its bottom line. She was very proud that she was able to meet that goal and received a bonus. As large as corporation was, she was not familiar with those employees, their family or economic situations, their religion or the strength of their beliefs. Cutting older employees salaries saved the corp more money making it easier to meet her goal. On retrospection, she began to question her role and the impact she had on those employees' lives and their ability to succeed financially in the future. Her consolation was that she concluded that her increasing financial success had been an anchor on her outlook towards others.

 

[Irish YJ]

Someone I know was once in charge of Human Resources for a large part of a multi-national corporation through her hard work, advanced degrees and abilities that led them to promote her over the years to increasingly responsible positions as the corp moved through periods of financial success and mergers. She was then directed to cut staff given the target of half million dollars in salaries as the corp wanted to slim its workforce and improve its bottom line. She was very proud that she was able to meet that goal and received a bonus. As large as corporation was, she was not familiar with those employees, their family or economic situations, their religion or the strength of their beliefs. Cutting older employees salaries saved the corp more money making it easier to meet her goal. On retrospection, she began to question her role and the impact she had on those employees' lives and their ability to succeed financially in the future. Her consolation was that she concluded that her increasing financial success had been an anchor on her outlook towards others.

I had large organizations for a fortune 25 for 10+ years before I moved on to other ops. We cut at min twice per year. 500K is a very small target. Depending on employee type, it could be under 5 employees loaded. Our typical cut just in a small corner, of a small corner of the company, which was still large in terms of HC, was normally 1-5M. HR in large companies are very distant from the actual hiring/firing, and limited to mostly policy and compliance. Leadership typically comes up with a numbers which is then filtered down to OPS management and HR. OPS has to "figure it out" while HR monitors and pushes paper. They get their hands in the working level only when issues arise. Definitely one of the more insulated groups. The impact on individuals who have to make downsizing decisions is very real, but HR has many degrees of separation.

 

[connor_in]

 

[zelezo vlk]

Wiz, uh did we solve this for you? You all good now?

 

[ACamp1900]

Wiz, uh did we solve this for you? You all good now?

Pretty sure he still thinks my family is shit....

 

[zelezo vlk]

Pretty sure he still thinks my family is shit....

It's because your burritos taste nothing like Chipotle's

 

[ACamp1900]

It has always been interesting for me to read some of your experiences growing up. I can't stress what different worlds it is... I got good grades and all that, played sports, good kid... My family was poor though, white during the height of AA, and culturally yeah, just 'poor'. The thought of going to a prestigious school and all that was like dreaming of winning the lottery. It was a cool thought but it wasn't something that happens in 'the real world'. All my uncles, cousins, my father, they were all just laborers, most still are. My father took one semester at the local JC and that was like a badge of honor in the family. I remember when I got my graduate degree it made for an awkward topic during family gatherings, like I just got back from the moon or something. I have like 30 cousins on my father's side and still just my sister, myself and a couple others have anything beyond high school. I look back now and think I could prob have gotten into some of those schools had I just known what I know now... but I didn't. No one in my world did.

 

[Bishop2b5]

My brother & I were talking recently about how much culture and technology have changed. It occurred to us that in our grandfather's life (1899-1979) we went from the first airplane flight to landing on the moon. That's just an astounding leap in one lifetime.

 

[ACamp1900]

My brother & I were talking recently about how much culture and technology have changed. It occurred to us that in our grandfather's life (1899-1979) we went from the first airplane flight to landing on the moon. That's just an astounding leap in one lifetime.

Side: Electronics.

Okay so my youngest, for background: I try to not brag on her. She's pretty, sweet, smart, athletic... we meet random people and they'll comment all the time how 'prefect' she is and they've not really wrong. I'm very proud of her, she's one of those who brings home straight As, wins MVPs, and goes out of her way to help or impress mom and dad. She never talks back and crumbles if she thinks she did something that may have been 'bad' even if by total accident.

As everyone knows we are moving so all of her softball and soccer stuff, her color books, her toys and such are all packed up except for what can fit in her backpack (few toys, her blanket and her tablet). Yes she has a tablet but I only let her on it for an hour on Saturdays and all she does look up these hatchimal videos on youtube....

SO,... with everything packed up I have been allowing her extra time on her tablet this past week, like a lot more time,... maybe 90 minutes a day now. This week she's been a little brat. She's talked back a ton and has been arguing little stuff, it's just not her, at all. She has been avoiding help around the house which is totally not like her... You could chalk it up her world being all topsy-turvy but I swear it has more to do with the increased electronics usage. I have to unbox some of her normal toys or books or something... lol

 

[Irish#1]

I had large organizations for a fortune 25 for 10+ years before I moved on to other ops. We cut at min twice per year. 500K is a very small target. Depending on employee type, it could be under 5 employees loaded. Our typical cut just in a small corner, of a small corner of the company, which was still large in terms of HC, was normally 1-5M. HR in large companies are very distant from the actual hiring/firing, and limited to mostly policy and compliance. Leadership typically comes up with a numbers which is then filtered down to OPS management and HR. OPS has to "figure it out" while HR monitors and pushes paper. They get their hands in the working level only when issues arise. Definitely one of the more insulated groups. The impact on individuals who have to make downsizing decisions is very real, but HR has many degrees of separation.

Yep, Sallie Mae operates that way.

 

[wizards8507]

Wiz, uh did we solve this for you? You all good now?

I clearly didn't do a good job articulating my original question. I agree with everyone who responded to me. My question wasn't about what's right and wrong, because that part is obvious. It was about the practical concerns that come with fatherhood and the desire to steer one's children into a wholesome and fulfilling life.

It has always been interesting for me to read some of your experiences growing up. I can't stress what different worlds it is... I got good grades and all that, played sports, good kid... My family was poor though, white during the height of AA, and culturally yeah, just 'poor'. The thought of going to a prestigious school and all that was like dreaming of winning the lottery. It was a cool thought but it wasn't something that happens in 'the real world'. All my uncles, cousins, my father, they were all just laborers, most still are. My father took one semester at the local JC and that was like a badge of honor in the family. I remember when I got my graduate degree it made for an awkward topic during family gatherings, like I just got back from the moon or something. I have like 30 cousins on my father's side and still just my sister, myself and a couple others have anything beyond high school. I look back now and think I could prob have gotten into some of those schools had I just known what I know now... but I didn't. No one in my world did.

That's not much different from me, honestly. We weren't poor, but we were decidedly working class. My dad has been in various factory jobs for the last 30 years and my mom has been in secretary / assistant positions. My aunts and uncles are things like Uber drivers, French teachers, hospital cooks, retired NYPD, roofers, and one nurse. I'm no stranger to visiting cousins at the trailer park.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

SO,... with everything packed up I have been allowing her extra time on her tablet this past week, like a lot more time,... maybe 90 minutes a day now. This week she's been a little brat. She's talked back a ton and has been arguing little stuff, it's just not her, at all. She has been avoiding help around the house which is totally not like her... You could chalk it up her world being all topsy-turvy but I swear it has more to do with the increased electronics usage.

I've seen it in my own kids as well. The corporate heads of many Silicon Valley tech giants pay big money to send their kids to screen-free schools, all while lobbying to stick lower class kids in front of screens for longer and longer periods each year. And there's a growing body of research showing many strongly negative correlations between increased screen time and social skills, attention span, achievement, etc.

I clearly didn't do a good job articulating my original question. I agree with everyone who responded to me. My question wasn't about what's right and wrong, because that part is obvious. It was about the practical concerns that come with fatherhood and the desire to steer one's children into a wholesome and fulfilling life.

And that's mostly laudable. Just don't make the mistake of equating "wholesome and fulfilling life" with a bourgeois upper-middle class lifestyle. Yes, the poor are prone to certain types of vice, but the rich have their own problems. By way of example, my boys are in 5th, 3rd and 1st grade (respectively), while my daughter is in half-day preschool. At those ages, a good rule of thumb I've found for whether or not I can trust another set of parents with one of my kids for a playdate is, "Does their kid have a smart phone?" If yes, they're either clueless or negligent about what their kid is likely looking at online, which is a huge red flag. And in my experience, the parents who do that are usually both working and producing a high household income.

You just can't safely use class as a proxy for virtue. I've mentioned this before, but as an estate planning attorney, the richer the client, the more f*cked up their kids are.