Culture

IRISHDODGER

Blue Chip Recruit
Messages
5,372
Reaction score
3,038
I don't think there are many real Americans (aka people who arent just being douchebags on the internet) who view an abortion as a total moral non-event. There is obvious value in the potential life of an early stage pregnancy, even if you dont view it as a life. The snuffing out of that potential is something that shouldn't be lightly done. But many people don't value that potential over the mother's life, don't believe that a mother should be forced to carry a non-viable child to term, or think there should be exceptions for rape/incest. There are even more people who have different personal standards. Many are mostly concerned with the idea that they dont want DC/State politicians telling people what they can/can't do with their bodies or getting involved in incredibly personal healthcare decisions that are often in the margins.

I don't even necessarily agree with a lot of the above, but acting like more than 60% of Americans are bad faith baby murderers is really uncharitable to a complicated issue.
I don’t think there are a lot of real Americans who are against abortion if it threatens the mother’s life or that a mother should be forced to carry a non-viable child to term or the exceptions for rape/incest. What specific bills are saying that abortions are banned regardless of the health of the mother or rape/incest? If there’s a politician running on that platform, they won’t win.

Trump is being the typical pol trying to have it both ways. I’m sure he’s paid for a few in his day.

If it’s not a life regardless of term, then why not push for abortion on demand? Why limit it to safe/legal/rare. Start having the vacuums w/ the best suction rate add new abortion attachments. If it’s not a life, then what’s the issue?

Becasue it is a life

<iframe title="vimeo-player" src="" width="640" height="360" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

greyhammer90

the drunk piano player
Messages
14,448
Reaction score
7,924
I don’t think there are a lot of real Americans who are against abortion if it threatens the mother’s life or that a mother should be forced to carry a non-viable child to term or the exceptions for rape/incest. What specific bills are saying that abortions are banned regardless of the health of the mother or rape/incest? If there’s a politician running on that platform, they won’t win.

If it’s not a life regardless of term, then why not push for abortion on demand? Why limit it to safe/legal/rare. Start having the vacuums w/ the best suction rate add new abortion attachments. If it’s not a life, then what’s the issue?

I already explained that many people view an early term pregnancy as less than a life but still worthy of protection in my last post. Something doesnt have to be equivalent to a human life to have moral value and be worthy of protection and regulation. Pro-choice people saying that it should be safe/legal/rare isn't the logical conundrum you're presenting it as.

If anything, I think your position is the one that seems illogical. You say that a fetus is a human life with no qualifications or limitations. You say it's a life, full stop. But, using that logic, you nevertheless indicate that it's ok to murder those full humans if they are the product of rape/incest. Why would that make a difference if they were full people with no qualifications? Same question for allowing the murder of a child for the mother's health. Why would anyone view the mother's life more valuable than the child? The fact that you accept these margin calls would indicate that you don't view an early term fetus's life as being exactly on par with a full adult life.
 
Last edited:

SeekNDestroy

Well-known member
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
1,325
Thoughts on abortion have a fairly interesting history if one is so inclined to read up on. Both the Catholic Church and many Protestant churches haven’t always been anti-abortion. There’s also the mention in the Old Testament that life begins at first breath. I would think that would be of particular interest to evangelicals who take the Old Testament literally.
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2024!
Messages
27,301
Reaction score
10,027
Thoughts on abortion have a fairly interesting history if one is so inclined to read up on. Both the Catholic Church and many Protestant churches haven’t always been anti-abortion. There’s also the mention in the Old Testament that life begins at first breath. I would think that would be of particular interest to evangelicals who take the Old Testament literally.

Really? I'm genuinely curious about the Catholic part here. I did some searching and found this from the Catholic Bishops of the US site that suggests they've always defended the unborn, but if you have other information I'd like to see it. Are you speaking about individuals within the church that disagreed with the church's position, or do you have some info where the church supported abortion as a policy?

 

SeekNDestroy

Well-known member
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
1,325
Really? I'm genuinely curious about the Catholic part here. I did some searching and found this from the Catholic Bishops of the US site that suggests they've always defended the unborn, but if you have other information I'd like to see it. Are you speaking about individuals within the church that disagreed with the church's position, or do you have some info where the church supported abortion as a policy?

 

Bishop2b5

SEC Exchange Student
Messages
6,838
Reaction score
3,612
I had an odd interaction with someone today. I was at the car dealership getting some service work done and a black guy with a heavy accent started talking to me. I asked him where he was from and he said South Africa. I told him my wife had spent her teens there and we talked a bit about the country, and then he started telling me how bad it was there and why he'd left and come to the US. From there, he began griping about how white people had robbed Africa, then complained about the US stealing all the land from the native Americans and its support of Israel stealing land from the Palestinians. I didn't argue with him at all - just let him rant. Finally when he paused, I asked, "Didn't your people, the Bantu, take South Africa from the Khoisan about 1500 years ago?" He jumped up and stamped his feet and got mad and yelled, "Goodbye!" and stomped off in a huff. LOL
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2024!
Messages
27,301
Reaction score
10,027
I see that some theologians had conflicting views on the topic, but I don't see them saying here that the church as a whole was ever pro-abortion. They've made concessions that an abortion may be acceptable if the life of the mother is threatened. That particular concession wasn't made until the Middle Ages, they say in the Wiki before that all abortions were considered sin. From what I'm reading there seems to show a consistency that abortion isn't morally acceptable if it's a means to strictly kill a fetus.

I think the biggest contention was in the early days there was a belief that a baby didn't receive a soul until the "quickening," which was believed to be 40 days after conception. There's some dissenting views that may have allowed for an abortion prior to this (Or at least a lesser punishment/penance), but even in the 4th century there was a belief that life began at conception.

In short, it seems there were some writers and theologians that had differing opinions on the topic, but I'm not seeing the Catholic church ever being pro-abortion.
 

SeekNDestroy

Well-known member
Messages
1,536
Reaction score
1,325
I see that some theologians had conflicting views on the topic, but I don't see them saying here that the church as a whole was ever pro-abortion. They've made concessions that an abortion may be acceptable if the life of the mother is threatened. That particular concession wasn't made until the Middle Ages, they say in the Wiki before that all abortions were considered sin. From what I'm reading there seems to show a consistency that abortion isn't morally acceptable if it's a means to strictly kill a fetus.

I think the biggest contention was in the early days there was a belief that a baby didn't receive a soul until the "quickening," which was believed to be 40 days after conception. There's some dissenting views that may have allowed for an abortion prior to this (Or at least a lesser punishment/penance), but even in the 4th century there was a belief that life began at conception.

In short, it seems there were some writers and theologians that had differing opinions on the topic, but I'm not seeing the Catholic church ever being pro-abortion.
I don’t think pro-abortion would be the right stance, but as you pointed out, quickening was a way around it. Interestingly enough, 40 days was for male fetuses and 90 for female fetuses although I’m not sure how they would know the sex.
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2024!
Messages
27,301
Reaction score
10,027
I don’t think pro-abortion would be the right stance, but as you pointed out, quickening was a way around it. Interestingly enough, 40 days was for male fetuses and 90 for female fetuses although I’m not sure how they would know the sex.

Yeah, there was some grey area around that whole quickening ideology, and not everyone was in agreement on it, it was something put forth by some theologians. The science behind conception wasn't even formulated until the last few hundred years, so yeah...no idea how they determined the sex thing. The baby's gender doesn't even show up on ultrasounds until the 14th week roughly, but it starts to become distinct around week 7. The whole quickening thinking was all prior to ultrasounds though, so I don't know how they handled that. If they decided to go through with an abortion between days 40-80, and if they found out it was a girl you got a pass maybe? If it was a boy "Sorry, it's excommunication for you." I dunno, would have to look into it deeper. Either way, I don't think it was an official policy of the church during that time.
 

IRISHDODGER

Blue Chip Recruit
Messages
5,372
Reaction score
3,038
I already explained that many people view an early term pregnancy as less than a life but still worthy of protection in my last post. Something doesnt have to be equivalent to a human life to have moral value and be worthy of protection and regulation. Pro-choice people saying that it should be safe/legal/rare isn't the logical conundrum you're presenting it as.

If anything, I think your position is the one that seems illogical. You say that a fetus is a human life with no qualifications or limitations. You say it's a life, full stop. But, using that logic, you nevertheless indicate that it's ok to murder those full humans if they are the product of rape/incest. Why would that make a difference if they were full people with no qualifications? Same question for allowing the murder of a child for the mother's health. Why would anyone view the mother's life more valuable than the child? The fact that you accept these margin calls would indicate that you don't view an early term fetus's life as being exactly on par with a full adult life.
I didn’t say it’s ok to murder those full humans if they are product of rape/incest. I said that there are a lot of Americans who agree with that and I believe polls bear that out. I do think it’s a life but I also agree with what you said about what a tough decision it is for those involved when mother’s life is at risk or it is a result of rape/incest. But what percentage of abortions are due to those instances?

I agree w/ a lot of what you say above. I’m just saying, it is a life & when aborted a life has been taken. Whether a mother chooses to have the baby knowing her life is at risk or whether she chooses to abort the baby to save her life should be up to her. But it’s still taking a life when you look at it w/o emotion. And I’m not saying the mother should be judged negatively b/c I suspect that’s a torturous decision.

So if abortion were truly performed for the above reasons that are extremely rare yet nonetheless occurring then you’re right that “Pro-choice people saying it should be safe/legal/rare isn’t the logical conundrum I present it as”. But that’s not the case for abortion advocates. Research (& I feel everyone on both sides of the debate agree) shows abortion is mostly done out of convenience (i.e., birth control) b/c they don’t think they can afford a baby, don’t want it affecting their career or don’t want to take it to term to put up for adoption. Those are not rare instances…they’re commonplace & far outnumber the abortions performed to save the mother or b/c the woman was a victim of rape/incest.
 

TorontoGold

Mr. Dumb Moron
Messages
4,480
Reaction score
2,447
blog_abortions_gestational_age-1.gif


If viability is at ~24 weeks, then 1.21% of abortions are at viability (even then those fetus' are rolling the dice if they come out). The studies show that abortions after viability are heavily tilted towards them being performed for medical purposes past 20 weeks. Making sweeping assumptions on literal handful of circumstances isn't logically sound. I encourage anyone who thinks abortions are performed for convenience to go ask their GF/Wife if they like speculums, likely not going to be sleeping the main bed tonight lol.
 

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2024!
Messages
27,301
Reaction score
10,027
Thought about putting this in the Funny Pics thread, but I generally keep anything even remotely political out of there

GLijg1BWQAAgllz
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
6,079
Reaction score
2,987
“DeSantis wasn't wrong. We're so tribal now, the left will overlook child fucking if the guy from the wrong party calls it out."
"For pedophiles in Hollywood its a small world after all."
"Maybe it's time to admit Drag Queen Story Hour is more for the queen than the kids. Sure the kids love a clown but does the clown have to have tits?
When I see a 5 year old tipping at a bar under a sign that says 'It's not going to lick itself'
Do I have to pretend that's cool in order to keep my liberal ID card?"
Yes.

 
Last edited:

ulukinatme

Carr for QB 2024!
Messages
27,301
Reaction score
10,027
“DeSantis wasn't wrong. We're so tribal now, the left will overlook child fucking if the guy from the wrong party calls it out."
"For pedophiles in Hollywood its a small world after all."
"Maybe it's time to admit Drag Queen Story Hour is more for the queen than the kids. Sure the kids love a clown but does the clown have to have tits?
When I see a 5 year old tipping at a bar under a sign that says 'It's not going to lick itself'
Do I have to pretend that's cool in order to keep my liberal ID card?"
Yes.


rbi7m1xzpafb1.jpg


Man, this is at least the third time I've agreed with Maher recently, wouldn't have predicted that 20 years ago. Either I'm closer to middle than before, or people have had enough of the crazy.
 

drayer54

Well-known member
Messages
6,079
Reaction score
2,987
rbi7m1xzpafb1.jpg


Man, this is at least the third time I've agreed with Maher recently, wouldn't have predicted that 20 years ago. Either I'm closer to middle than before, or people have had enough of the crazy.
Bill Maher is a good indication that the left has gone off the cliff if someone as liberal as him can appeal to the mainstream.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Messages
37,013
Reaction score
10,387
Pied Piper syndrome. (I just made that up. Can I copyright it?)

If the rest of your friends jumped off a bridge..................
 
Top