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Irish#1

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My wife coaches girls high school soccer. I have a daughter in golf, a daughter in lacrosse and a daughter in soccer. My message to the four of them is simple: you come across any opponents who used to be male, you pull up your frigging bootstraps and just work harder. Hard work, grit and doing everything right is all it takes to succeed. If you fail, try harder next time.

My message to state representatives is you should be spending minimal time, if any, protecting or attacking this particular issue because there is a mountain of far more important things facing the state. Chicago alone needs dire attention on multiple far more pressing matters than girls sports.

JFC.
All sports have been refined over the year to make it a level playing field for the competitors. Allowing a trans competitor to compete takes that away. I applaud you encouraging your daughters to continue to work hard, but regardless of the encouragement any girl receives, she's probably going to have questions and resentment if she knows she has put in all that time and effort yet has little chance to win.

I have a number of granddaughters that compete in sports. One was an AA volleyball player. She still plays in a competitive co-ed league. she tells me all the time how much better the guys are. One plays travel basketball. One season her team played in a boys league just to play against better competition. She was pretty tired of doing that when the season was over and said she didn't want to do that again.

If one of your daughters said she didn't want to compete against a trans would you force her to?
 
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Irish#1

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Important issues that matter to me are excuses because they don't put the importance of transgender sports equal to how you view it? Clearly you have apathy for these matters based on your response and that transgender sports is far more important to you than it is to me. So be it. That's where it's at. I am only contributing to the whacking away of the Barbaro that is this topic.

I care about being able to retire and prosper while I'm working, if I even get to have retirement, and for my children...if there is one. I want them to be safe, to prosper and have access to health care. I want this for others besides me and mine, including total strangers, as well. "Sorry bunch of Excuses", you say. I'd like to think these issues are as important to me if not more important to average voters. I just don't have the incredible bandwidth for the transgender issue that you and a lot of the other guys in this thread seem to, nor do I subscribe to "that's just the way it is,"

You answered my question, though. More than you realize. Thanks again.
Interesting response, but I think you might be missing something. This is a forum where we all state our half-ass opinions, yet I doubt any of us lose any sleep over what someone else posted. More importantly, I doubt anyone here is actually working in one of the many causes that gets talked about, so to say or infer someone values sports more than people getting along, having access to healthcare, etc., might be short sighted.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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All sports have been refined over the year to make it a level playing field for the competitors. Allowing a trans competitor to compete takes that away. I applaud you encouraging your daughters to continue to work hard, but regardless of the encouragement any girl receives, she's probably going to have questions and resentment if she knows she has put in all that time and effort yet has little chance to win.

If one of your daughters said she didn't want to compete against a trans would you force her to?
Haven't crossed this bridge yet, and it all likelihood we probably will not. I would leave that to her and her coach, ultimately, Obviously if the situation were to put any of them in serious peril, I would direct them away from peril. Golfing probably finds more peril dealing with alligators than transgender putting and chipping. Lacrosse and soccer are team sports, so I'd have to educate myself further on the potential endangerment there.

I can guarantee you that my wife is not going to pull a varsity soccer team off of the field in a situation like this. He's going to coach on.

Hundreds of millions of people in this country, if this winds up directly affecting me, we'll figure it out when the time comes. There are issues that impact all if not most of us, but status quo and disenfranchisement are largely accepted. I am rather surprised by the amount of posts, time and attention being spent on it and I have female athletes in my home in the arena. I could very well feel differently should the day come that one of them has to compete in a situation like this. We'll see.

I can see that my responses on this issue are completely against the grain in this particular audience, too, but I don't think they're terribly off of the wall. I don't have many neighbors in the Chicago NW Suburbs going to voting booths with transgender athletes at the forefront of their minds. I could be completely unaware and sleepwalking through it all, though.
 

ulukinatme

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Important issues that matter to me are excuses because they don't put the importance of transgender sports equal to how you view it? Clearly you have apathy for these matters based on your response and that transgender sports is far more important to you than it is to me. So be it. That's where it's at. I am only contributing to the whacking away of the Barbaro that is this topic.

I care about being able to retire and prosper while I'm working, if I even get to have retirement, and for my children...if there is one. I want them to be safe, to prosper and have access to health care. I want this for others besides me and mine, including total strangers, as well. "Sorry bunch of Excuses", you say. I'd like to think these issues are as important to me if not more important to average voters. I just don't have the incredible bandwidth for the transgender issue that you and a lot of the other guys in this thread seem to, nor do I subscribe to "that's just the way it is,"

You answered my question, though. More than you realize. Thanks again.

Missed the point. Again, can we not walk and chew bubblegum at the same time? You're bringing in a whole bunch of issues that have plagued us since the dawn of time. They're always going to be issues. The issue of men playing in women's sports is a fairly new thing. None of what you mentioned is directly related to trans women playing against biological women. It's a bunch of red herrings to avoid doing the right thing. You can be for ending crime, peace on earth, healthcare for all, equal wealth distribution. etc. It doesn't preclude protecting women's sports. You either support women, or you don't.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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Interesting response, but I think you might be missing something. This is a forum where we all state our half-ass opinions, yet I doubt any of us lose any sleep over what someone else posted. More importantly, I doubt anyone here is actually working in one of the many causes that gets talked about, so to say or infer someone values sports more than people getting along, having access to healthcare, etc., might be short sighted.
Let's make sure we're clear, then. I'm not losing sleep over anything I post or anything that gets posted. I can't type that clear enough.

Secondly, I'm inferring that transgender sports is a far more important issue to many of you than it is to me. The response I received was, in so many words, that there isn't anything we can do to improve the issues that I care most about and I'm making excuses for not putting more value or importance to this transgender issue.

I'm trying to understand WHY I should be making it more important.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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Missed the point. Again, can we not walk and chew bubblegum at the same time? You're bringing in a whole bunch of issues that have plagued us since the dawn of time. They're always going to be issues. The issue of men playing in women's sports is a fairly new thing. None of what you mentioned is directly related to trans women playing against biological women. It's a bunch of red herrings to avoid doing the right thing. You can be for ending crime, peace on earth, healthcare for all, equal wealth distribution. etc. It doesn't preclude protecting women's sports. You either support women, or you don't.
This is where I'm at with it. I'm not going to rush to any pole about it, so I'm not placing a high level of importance to it and belaboring the point in favor or opposed. It's a wedge issue to me that divides and distracts us about things that could actually improve all of our overall lives, and you have stated, have always been issues. There is a reason for that. It's lack of pragmatism for those specific issues over the course of time and oxygen going to wedge issues or "fairly new things" that none of us can truly understand or figure out just yet. Exploiting it for political gain, clicks, column width and votes is obviously something that will not change.

Changing genders is not anything I want for myself, and I would not want it for any of my three girls. The athletic arena is a different issue entirely from treating people fairly in regular day to day life, and I still don't quite understand it, so it isn't going to be an issue or oppose or champion. I don't know what the far ranging adverse results would necessarily be on me or anyone in my home. Yet. The probability that it comes directly into contact with us is higher with a coach of female HS athletics and three female athletes in the house (none of whom are in HS yet nor have they encountered a transgender opponent that we're aware of). Everyone should have rights, but I don't necessarily grasp where this all starts and ends when it comes to athletics. Others seem to know what the right thing is, in no uncertain absolute terms. I'm not there.

That being said, if my stance on this ultimately determines that I support women or don't, I probably have to make a decision soon. I don't intend on rushing to one and even when I do, this still ends up low on my personal priority scale.
 

Irish#1

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Let's make sure we're clear, then. I'm not losing sleep over anything I post or anything that gets posted. I can't type that clear enough.

Secondly, I'm inferring that transgender sports is a far more important issue to many of you than it is to me. The response I received was, in so many words, that there isn't anything we can do to improve the issues that I care most about and I'm making excuses for not putting more value or importance to this transgender issue.

I'm trying to understand WHY I should be making it more important.
All of those other topics have been discussed here and quite often. As Ulukinatme mentioned, this is a fairly new topic, so it's going to get more discussion. Doesn't mean anyone cares less about the others. Retirement is more important to some, where others feel healthcare is more important than the economy, gun control, etc., etc. Why worry about making it more important?
 

Irish#1

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This is where I'm at with it. I'm not going to rush to any pole about it, so I'm not placing a high level of importance to it and belaboring the point in favor or opposed. It's a wedge issue to me that divides and distracts us about things that could actually improve all of our overall lives, and you have stated, have always been issues. There is a reason for that. It's lack of pragmatism for those specific issues over the course of time and oxygen going to wedge issues or "fairly new things" that none of us can truly understand or figure out just yet. Exploiting it for political gain, clicks, column width and votes is obviously something that will not change.

Changing genders is not anything I want for myself, and I would not want it for any of my three girls. The athletic arena is a different issue entirely from treating people fairly in regular day to day life, and I still don't quite understand it, so it isn't going to be an issue or oppose or champion. I don't know what the far ranging adverse results would necessarily be on me or anyone in my home. Yet. The probability that it comes directly into contact with us is higher with a coach of female HS athletics and three female athletes in the house (none of whom are in HS yet nor have they encountered a transgender opponent that we're aware of). Everyone should have rights, but I don't necessarily grasp where this all starts and ends when it comes to athletics. Others seem to know what the right thing is, in no uncertain absolute terms. I'm not there.

That being said, if my stance on this ultimately determines that I support women or don't, I probably have to make a decision soon. I don't intend on rushing to one and even when I do, this still ends up low on my personal priority scale.
The only other thing I might add is this. There has been a long hard push over the years to get women treated equally to men and why not? They deserve it. Having said that, I still wonder why some are okay with Trans competing against women, because that's not treating them fairly.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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All of those other topics have been discussed here and quite often. As Ulukinatme mentioned, this is a fairly new topic, so it's going to get more discussion. Doesn't mean anyone cares less about the others. Retirement is more important to some, where others feel healthcare is more important than the economy, gun control, etc., etc. Why worry about making it more important?
Does it wind up being like all of the others and just wind up going on and on without an end game.
The only other thing I might add is this. There has been a long hard push over the years to get women treated equally to men and why not? They deserve it. Having said that, I still wonder why some are okay with Trans competing against women, because that's not treating them fairly.

There have to to instances of biological women defeating transgender women in athletics. If there is a 100% win rate, then the idea of fairness is in obvious question. What is the success rate?

Surely there is nuance to this? They do deserve equality, and beyond the realm of sports.

Certain women are going to choose not to compete in track, darts, whatever. Others are just going to have a go. Some may win, some may lose.

Once you arrive at an end game, then what?
 

TorontoGold

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Does it wind up being like all of the others and just wind up going on and on without an end game.


There have to to instances of biological women defeating transgender women in athletics. If there is a 100% win rate, then the idea of fairness is in obvious question. What is the success rate?

Surely there is nuance to this? They do deserve equality, and beyond the realm of sports.

Certain women are going to choose not to compete in track, darts, whatever. Others are just going to have a go. Some may win, some may lose.

Once you arrive at an end game, then what?
Just make it science based and let it be done. Whenever there is a clear and distinct advantage as determined by an actual doctor make that the cut off. Seems like an easy fix. We know kids aren't just trans'ing themselves to play house league U14 soccer so they can be doxxed by online penis inspectors, if there is someone doing it try and hurt girls then at competitions make it science based. T levels over a certain threshold, no soccer for you.

For the ~4K kids that are going through hormone therapy, the outsized outrage on this matter is just using "women sports" as a cudgel to direct hate to a disadvantaged group.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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I just wonder what this is all really about. Yes, this topic is new and is gaining a great deal of attention. It is being taken up as a hot topic among several Republican led state legislatures. When we talk about parroting a narrative and following the beat of whatever the drum says, that's maybe where I get crossed up with the transgender sports bit.

If this is about the integrity and fairness of women's sports, about doing the right thing and being careful of not "parroting" messaging, I am left to wonder why on other issues pertaining to fairness and doing the right thing these same state lawmakers have taken stances on different issues that directly oppose this particular one. Why is fairness for biological women in sports a cause to champion equal or above others that these legislators have had plenty of chances to champion and have chosen not to? Simply because it's a fresh new issue and those issues as old as time can't bothered to be improved, or is it something else? Why is women's sports such a high priority particularly among state legislators?

To be fair, you guys aren't lawmakers that I'm aware of, you're just ND Football fans and you've brought up some interesting points for me to consider to today. I guess it boils down to me not really getting it for the time being.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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Just make it science based and let it be done. Whenever there is a clear and distinct advantage as determined by an actual doctor make that the cut off. Seems like an easy fix. We know kids aren't just trans'ing themselves to play house league U14 soccer so they can be doxxed by online penis inspectors, if there is someone doing it try and hurt girls then at competitions make it science based. T levels over a certain threshold, no soccer for you.

For the ~4K kids that are going through hormone therapy, the outsized outrage on this matter is just using "women sports" as a cudgel to direct hate to a disadvantaged group.
Listen, if this becomes the equivalent to holding your son back or making him repeat 8th grade for frosh football tryouts, then yes absolutely fuck off to those people. They should not have children and are obviously messed up beyond all physical or mental repair.

There have been plenty of other opportunities to be fair and equal to women when it comes to legislation. Many of the people fighting the fight on this one here have gone to the state floor and voted against women on those issues.
 

ulukinatme

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I just wonder what this is all really about. Yes, this topic is new and is gaining a great deal of attention. It is being taken up as a hot topic among several Republican led state legislatures. When we talk about parroting a narrative and following the beat of whatever the drum says, that's maybe where I get crossed up with the transgender sports bit.

If this is about the integrity and fairness of women's sports, about doing the right thing and being careful of not "parroting" messaging, I am left to wonder why on other issues pertaining to fairness and doing the right thing these same state lawmakers have taken stances on different issues that directly oppose this particular one. Why is fairness for biological women in sports a cause to champion equal or above others that these legislators have had plenty of chances to champion and have chosen not to? Simply because it's a fresh new issue and those issues as old as time can't bothered to be improved, or is it something else? Why is women's sports such a high priority particularly among state legislators?

To be fair, you guys aren't lawmakers that I'm aware of, you're just ND Football fans and you've brought up some interesting points for me to consider to today. I guess it boils down to me not really getting it for the time being.

This is about fairness in Women's sports, pure and simple. It's specifically about trans women competing against biological women. They have clear advantages with male physiology that allows them to dominate in women's sports that they otherwise would not have in men's sports. This isn't a target against trans people in general as there is no cry for trans males to be banned from men's sports, they pose no real advantages and there's almost no cases of it actually happening. I've only seen one case where a trans boy was forced to wrestle against females in Texas due to state law, and this was despite the fact they wanted to compete against boys.

These trans girls are setting records in track, swimming, and other sports when those same performances would render them last against their male counterparts. That's a huge difference, the women can't really compete with that. I think, especially as a father of multiple girls, you have to put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if one of your daughters just missed the podium because a boy medaled above her? How would you feel if your daughter missed out on a scholarship opportunity because it went to a trans girl? How would you feel if your daughter was severely injured by a trans girl in a women's sport? No one is suggesting they not be allowed to play sports, there's no reasonable reason they can't compete against biological males.
 

Jiggafini19Deux

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This is about fairness in Women's sports, pure and simple. It's specifically about trans women competing against biological women. They have clear advantages with male physiology that allows them to dominate in women's sports that they otherwise would not have in men's sports. This isn't a target against trans people in general as there is no cry for trans males to be banned from men's sports, they pose no real advantages and there's almost no cases of it actually happening. I've only seen one case where a trans boy was forced to wrestle against females in Texas due to state law, and this was despite the fact they wanted to compete against boys.

These trans girls are setting records in track, swimming, and other sports when those same performances would render them last against their male counterparts. That's a huge difference, the women can't really compete with that. I think, especially as a father of multiple girls, you have to put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if one of your daughters just missed the podium because a boy medaled above her? How would you feel if your daughter missed out on a scholarship opportunity because it went to a trans girl? How would you feel if your daughter was severely injured by a trans girl in a women's sport? No one is suggesting they not be allowed to play sports, there's no reasonable reason they can't compete against biological males.
I would hope that people put themselves in their shoes should they arrive at complications during a pregnancy too, but it would seem many legislatures have determined to be more fair to them regarding sports versus health care. Depending on the state.

I think at this juncture I have not given significant amount of thought to my girls missing out on athletic accolades to trans opponents. That's just the honest truth. That being said, just because it isn't affecting me directly or indirectly doesn't mean that others are not seeing it happen to them and are reacting negatively with frustration.

My 12 year old took a few bumps and bruises from a biological girl in her lacrosse match on Saturday. My 8 year old soccer player had her hand stepped on accidently by her own teammate, a biological girl. My oldest golfs against biological girls in tournaments who have better drives than every adult biological male I know over the age of 30. I feel a certain way now when they experience getting hurt, injured or defeat. I don't know if I would feel any different if any of these things were to have occurred against a transgender athlete.

I understand these points you're making. What I fail to understand is what the states are doing relatively with other issues compared to his one. It's a political loser and I think that's the overriding reason why it's a hill so many lawmakers/politicians are willing to die on.
 

RDU Irish

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I would hope that people put themselves in their shoes should they arrive at complications during a pregnancy too, but it would seem many legislatures have determined to be more fair to them regarding sports versus health care. Depending on the state.

I think at this juncture I have not given significant amount of thought to my girls missing out on athletic accolades to trans opponents. That's just the honest truth. That being said, just because it isn't affecting me directly or indirectly doesn't mean that others are not seeing it happen to them and are reacting negatively with frustration.

My 12 year old took a few bumps and bruises from a biological girl in her lacrosse match on Saturday. My 8 year old soccer player had her hand stepped on accidently by her own teammate, a biological girl. My oldest golfs against biological girls in tournaments who have better drives than every adult biological male I know over the age of 30. I feel a certain way now when they experience getting hurt, injured or defeat. I don't know if I would feel any different if any of these things were to have occurred against a transgender athlete.

I understand these points you're making. What I fail to understand is what the states are doing relatively with other issues compared to his one. It's a political loser and I think that's the overriding reason why it's a hill so many lawmakers/politicians are willing to die on.

Are you OK with unisex locker rooms? Its not just winning and losing. All pervs have to do is wear a skirt and they get to follow my 16 year old daughter to the bathroom (or my wife for that matter). Follow my 12 year old son to the bathroom and I'll be following right behind MFer. Maybe if the LGBTQXYZ should police their own a smidge if you don't want the full wrath of normal society. If tearing down social norms is more important than protecting children then I don't frankly GAF about the collateral damage from the backlash.
 

TorontoGold

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Are you OK with unisex locker rooms? Its not just winning and losing. All pervs have to do is wear a skirt and they get to follow my 16 year old daughter to the bathroom (or my wife for that matter). Follow my 12 year old son to the bathroom and I'll be following right behind MFer. Maybe if the LGBTQXYZ should police their own a smidge if you don't want the full wrath of normal society. If tearing down social norms is more important than protecting children then I don't frankly GAF about the collateral damage from the backlash.
There's about 7,354 messages to pick from but this may be the dumbest fucking one.

LGBTQ people ain't the ones you should be worrying about, they are more likely to get raped by one of your white trash cousin/wives than the reverse.
 

RDU Irish

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There's about 7,354 messages to pick from but this may be the dumbest fucking one.

LGBTQ people ain't the ones you should be worrying about, they are more likely to get raped by one of your white trash cousin/wives than the reverse.

Keeping penises out of female bathrooms and locker rooms is dumb - OK stud. Not hard to imagine that is the only way you can catch a glimpse.
 

IRISHDODGER

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NFL is often silent when it comes to domestic abuse among their athletes, but a speech about traditional values isn't representative of their mission I hear.
If off-the-field actions are going to be scrutinized then the NFL has a helluva long list to address before getting down to a Catholic saying Catholic things at a Catholic university.
 

Sea Turtle

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Being a mother and mothering your children is the most important job on earth. Indeed, the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world.

That idea, the nuclear family is like a cross to vampires for some people, unfortunately.

Women can have it all these days. Maybe not all at once but still have it all.

Having said all that, I do worry about the day when they are allowed to vote and drive a car.
 

dublinirish

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lol if you believe tiktok the last few days, Butker was having sex with male cheerleaders at GT, was sent to conversion therapy twice as a teen (first stint failed) and his kids that he claims are his are in fact someone elses
 

GATTACA!

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lol if you believe tiktok the last few days, Butker was having sex with male cheerleaders at GT, was sent to conversion therapy twice as a teen (first stint failed) and his kids that he claims are his are in fact someone elses
He does give off some strong repressed homo urges. I'm choosing to believe this random rumor.
 

TorontoGold

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