COVID-19

InKellyWeTrust

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By containing it South Korea's not having to triage/stretched as thin as italy. If you can't tube someone 1% mortality goes to 5%. Additionally South Koreans are a skinny people with little diabetes and heart disease. Also additionally for the very young you go balls to the walls to keep them alive. I'm a peds intensivist and have seen someone survive Purpura Fulminans with renal failure 4 limb amputation an ECMO run of over a month followed by weeks on a vent. It will take time to see younger mortality. They take a week longer to get severe and are more likely to make it through the primary phase (ARDS) some then begin to improve but die of fulminant heart failure. The young will do better as they always do but they will suffer.

Furthermore mild disease means anything from fever and body aches to hallucinating with fever barely being able to move and taking a month to recover.

Moderate disease is admission for oxygen or hydration

Severe is the ICU probably with intubation.

If you run the numbers for 18 to 49 with China's numbers at a 0.25% mortality getting to 10% of the population you get 35k dead. The flu killed 2800 in that age bracket. Our young adults have more comorbidities and 10% is a low end infection rate.

This will be painful.

You make some good points. I am also a physician. I cannot find any papers to definitely prove or disprove with coronavirus but some viral families have a degree of heterotypic immunity, certainly most give some degree of homotypic immunity. I believe there is some degree of heterotypic immunity in kids which is contributing to the lack of mortality/severe disease in the age group.

Another aspect to consider is the relatively "old" population in northern Italy and the high pollution levels. See this satellite video clip (https://earther.gizmodo.com/satellites-show-italys-air-pollution-dissipating-as-cov-1842316669) which is situated over Europe. It is interesting to consider the interplay of poor air quality (which Norther Italy objectively has) with the severity of the disease.

What are you seeing so far in the pediatric wards? Are you admitting kids with respiratory distress and failure at higher rates than typical?
 
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PerthDomer

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I'm in Seattle. No peds cases yet. Adults have some intubated mid 20 yos. Anecdotally I'd count vaping as a comorbidity. Other hypotheses is this binds to the ang II receptor and that's upregulated in people on ACE inhibitors/Arbs aka 1st line diabetes heart disease and htn meds. Pattern seen is young take another week to get really sick and after ARDS recovery a significant proportion has heart failure/sudden cardiac death. I'm really worried for onc, congenital heart disease, transplant, CF, and sickle cell populations in peds.
 

PerthDomer

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Italy isolated it up north and slowed the curve elsewhere. Started there due to ski season.
 

Sea Turtle

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My wife has to now work from home with a laptop.

My daughter's makeup artist for the prom cancelled.
 

MJ12666

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A good article regarding the increase in the number of deaths in Italy.

The death toll from coronavirus in Italy has jumped by 250 in the last 24 hours, the biggest daily increase ever recorded by any country, as the worst-affected Lombardy region asked for a complete shutdown of factories and offices.

The government this week imposed drastic curbs nationwide, shutting bars, restaurants and most shops, and banning non-essential travel in an effort to halt the worst outbreak of the disease outside China.

The measures so far show no sign of slowing the number of deaths, which rose by 25% in a day to 1,266, the head of the Civil Protection Agency said on Friday.

The total number of cases rose to 17,660 from 15,113 the day before, an increase of some 17%.

Italy’s fatality rate, at 7% of all those who test positive from the highly contagious virus, is much higher than that of most other countries.

Italian health authorities attribute this mainly to an elderly population, with the majority of victims more than 80 years old with underlying health problems. However, other explanations have also been suggested.

Ilaria Capua, a virologist at Florida University, said this week that many patients may be dying due to separate infections from antibiotic-resistent bacteria in Italian hospitals.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...as-lombardy-seeks-tougher-curbs-idUSKBN2102GN
 

Circa

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School that I work at is closed until ATLEAST April 13th.

Back in the late 1800's they made school for children and young people for things like manufacturing.
Might be a good time for someone in the political scene to tell the public how important It would be for all of us adults and parents to teach these kids something other than: raise your hand to speak, if you don't you'll get detention, sit for 8 hours or we'll medicate you with an addictive substance, shut up and listen to us adults, whom screwed everything up to begin with.

Life's a bitch that has no gender.
 

Circa

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I'm in Seattle. No peds cases yet. Adults have some intubated mid 20 yos. Anecdotally I'd count vaping as a comorbidity. Other hypotheses is this binds to the ang II receptor and that's upregulated in people on ACE inhibitors/Arbs aka 1st line diabetes heart disease and htn meds. Pattern seen is young take another week to get really sick and after ARDS recovery a significant proportion has heart failure/sudden cardiac death. I'm really worried for onc, congenital heart disease, transplant, CF, and sickle cell populations in peds.

Hey doc.... I might be alone but english comprehension and DR. comprehension are different.... Obviously.

Can you Dr. It down?

It's kinda like the Bills the politicians try to read that lawyers write. The Info is there. The comprehension of us peons isn't.
 

PerthDomer

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Sorry I get ticked reading this thread and got short. The best explanation I have for ARDS is bad ass lung disease. If I intubate a healthy person I need a base level of pressure of 5 and 5 or 6 above that to get good breath volumes if paralyzed and you contribute nothing. You'd have 100% saturation on 21% oxygen aka room air. What I'm hearing in the average lung disease is a base pressure of 15 with pressures of 20 above that to get barely acceptable lung volumes on 50% plus oxygen to keep a sat of 90%. Patients then start to get better and their hearts fall apart sometimes with sudden death resulting. There are icu pts this sick in their 20's who were previously healthy though vaping seems to be as bad as a prior medical condition in terms of risk.
 

AKRowdy

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In layman terms ARDS= massive inflammation of the lungs which makes it really hard to get oxygen into the blood. Supposedly there is a CT pattern which is sensitive for COVID-19 infection.
 

Jimmy3Putt

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What are the odds they do something crazy like shutting down gas stations to stop people from traveling?

I was going to drive down and visit my father in Wichita next Friday, but don't want to get stuck away from my wife and kids.
 

SouthSideChiDomer

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What are the odds they do something crazy like shutting down gas stations to stop people from traveling?

I was going to drive down and visit my father in Wichita next Friday, but don't want to get stuck away from my wife and kids.

That would likely require a degree of planning I don't think we are capable of right now. A lot of vehicles would still need fuel like the cars of essential services, delivery vehicles, emergency vehicles, etc. It would also complicate drive thru testing which might be one of our best defenses.

If they are trying to limit travel, it might easier to just shut down the highways. It would probably take less law enforcement to just shut down every on ramp than it would to shut down gas stations. It would let people still move around, but congestion would probably limit long distance travel.
 

BGIF

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The White House has announced President Trump has tested Negative for Covid-19.

White House briefings will now be 20 minutes shorter as CNN will have to think of real questions to ask, re-ask, and follow-up.
 

Legacy

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https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763188

To all you assholes who insist on travel and say "not me"

FYI there are 20 yos whose only comorbidity is vaping that are intubated. It also seems clear China fudges their numbers and Iran much moreso.

Title of artice PerthDomer linked:
March 13, 2020
Critical Care Utilization for the COVID-19 Outbreak in Lombardy, Italy
Early Experience and Forecast During an Emergency Response


Excerpt:
On February 21, an emergency task force was formed by the Government of Lombardy and local health authorities to lead the response to the outbreak. This Viewpoint provides a summary of the response of the COVID-19 Lombardy ICU network and a forecast of estimated ICU demand over the coming weeks (projected to March 20, 2020).

Setting the Priorities and the Initial Response
In Lombardy, the precrisis total ICU capacity was approximately 720 beds (2.9% of total hospital beds at a total of 74 hospitals); these ICUs usually have 85% to 90% occupancy during the winter months.

The mission of the COVID-19 Lombardy ICU Network was to coordinate the critical care response to the outbreak. Two top priorities were identified: increasing surge ICU capacity and implementing measures for containment.

Increasing ICU Surge Capacity
The recognition that this outbreak likely occurred via community spread suggested that a large number of COVID-19–positive patients were already present in the region. This prediction proved correct in the following days. Based on the assumption that secondary transmission was already occurring, and even with containment measures that health authorities were establishing, it was assumed that many new cases of COVID-19 would occur, possibly in the hundreds or thousands of individuals. Thus, assuming a 5% ICU admission rate,2 it would not have been feasible to allocate all critically ill patients to a single COVID-19 ICU. The decision was to cohort patients in 15 first-responder hub hospitals, chosen because they either had expertise in infectious disease or were part of the Venous-Venous ECMO Respiratory Failure Network (RESPIRA).3

The identified hospitals were requested to do the following.

1. Create cohort ICUs for COVID-19 patients (areas separated from the rest of the ICU beds to minimize risk of in-hospital transmission).

2. Organize a triage area where patients could receive mechanical ventilation if necessary in every hospital to support critically ill patients with suspected COVID-19 infection, pending the final result of diagnostic tests.

3. Establish local protocols for triage of patients with respiratory symptoms, to test them rapidly, and, depending on the diagnosis, to allocate them to the appropriate cohort.

4. Ensure that adequate personal protective equipment (PPE) for health personnel is available, with the organization of adequate supply and distribution along with adequate training of all personnel at risk of contagion.

5. Report every positive or suspected critically ill COVID-19 patient to the regional coordinating center.

In addition, to quickly make available ICU beds and available personnel, nonurgent procedures were canceled and another 200 ICU beds were made available and staffed in the following 10 days. In total, over the first 18 days, the network created 482 ICU beds ready for patients.

Containment Measures
Local health authorities established strong containment measures in the initial cluster by quarantine of several towns in an attempt to slow virus transmission. In the second week, other clusters emerged. During this time, the ICU network advised the government to put in place every measure, such as reinforcing public health measures of quarantine and self-isolation, to contain the virus.

ICU Admissions Over the First 2 Weeks
There was an immediate sharp increase in ICU admissions from day 1 to day 14. The increase was steady and consistent. Publicly available data indicate that ICU admissions (n = 556) represented 16% of all patients (n = 3420) who tested positive for COVID-19. As of March 7, the current total number of patients with COVID-19 occupying an ICU bed (n = 359) represents 16% of currently hospitalized patients with COVID-19 (n = 2217). All patients who appeared to have severe illness were admitted for hypoxic respiratory failure to the COVID-19 dedicated ICUs.

Surge ICU Capacity
Within 48 hours, ICU cohorts were formed in 15 hub hospitals totaling 130 COVID-19 ICU beds. By March 7, the total number of dedicated cohorted COVID-19 ICU beds was 482 (about 60% of the total preoutbreak ICU bed capacity), distributed among 55 hospitals. As of March 8, critically ill patients (initially COVID-19–negative patients) have been transferred to receptive ICUs outside the region via a national coordinating emergency office.

Forecasting ICU Demand Over the Next 2 Weeks
During the first 3 days of the outbreak, starting from February 22, the ICU admissions were 11, 15, and 20 in the COVID-19 Lombardy ICU Network. ICU admissions have increased continuously and exponentially over the first 2 weeks. Based on data to March 7, when 556 COVID-19–positive ICU patients had been admitted to hospitals over the previous 15 days, linear and exponential models were created to estimate further ICU demand (eFigure in the Supplement).

The linear model forecasts that approximately 869 ICU admissions could occur by March 20, 2020, whereas the exponential model growth projects that approximately 14 542 ICU admissions could occur by then. Even though these projections are hypothetical and involve various assumptions, any substantial increase in the number of critically ill patients would rapidly exceed total ICU capacity, without even considering other critical admissions, such as for trauma, stroke, and other emergencies.

In practice, the health care system cannot sustain an uncontrolled outbreak, and stronger containment measures are now the only realistic option to avoid the total collapse of the ICU system. For this reason, over the last 2 weeks, clinicians have continuously advised authorities to augment the containment measures.

To our knowledge, this is the first report of the consequences of the COVID-19 outbreak on critical care capacity outside China. Despite prompt response of the local and regional ICU network, health authorities, and the government to try to contain the initial cluster, the surge in patients requiring ICU admission has been overwhelming. The proportion of ICU admissions represents 12% of the total positive cases, and 16% of all hospitalized patients. This rate is higher than what was reported from China, where only 5% of patients who tested positive for COVID-19 required ICU admission.2,4 There could be different explanations. It is possible that criteria for ICU admission were different between the countries, but this seems unlikely. Another explanation is that the Italian population is different from the Chinese population, with predisposing factors such as race, age, and comorbidities.5
 

Legacy

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US hospitals will run out of beds if coronavirus cases spike
A USA TODAY analysis shows there could be six seriously ill patients for every existing US hospital bed. No state is prepared.


Excerpts:
No state in the U.S. will have enough room to treat novel coronavirus patients if the surge in severe cases here mirrors that in other countries.

A USA TODAY analysis shows that if the nation sees a major spike, there could be almost six seriously ill patients for every existing hospital bed.

That analysis, based on data from the American Hospital Association, U.S. Census, CDC and World Health Organization, is conservative. For example, it assumes all 790,000 beds will be empty.

Since two thirds are not, the reality could be far worse: about 17 people competing for each open bed.

“Unless we are able to implement dramatic isolation measures like some places in China, we’ll be presented with overwhelming numbers of coronavirus patients – two to 10 times as we see at peak influenza times,” said Dr. James Lawler, who researches emerging diseases at the University of Nebraska Medical Center and the Global Center for Health Security.

USA TODAY’s analysis estimates 23.8 million Americans could contract COVID-19, the illness caused by the novel coronavirus that first appeared in Wuhan, China. That number is based on an infection rate of 7.4% – similar to a mild flu year.

Experts say this infection rate is likely to be far higher.

The Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security estimates that 38 million Americans will need medical care for COVID-19, including as many as 9.6 million who will need to be hospitalized – about a third of whom might need ICU-level care. In a February presentation to the American Hospital Association, Lawler estimated that as many as 96 million Americans could be infected.

The American Hospital Association wrote to congressional leaders in February to ask for money to build hospitals and housing to isolate patients.

Most people with COVID-19 will have only mild symptoms. Studies of cases in other countries suggest that some of those responsible for community spread were never identified as infected because they didn’t develop any symptoms.

But some still will need medical care – or at least medical isolation – at some point during the illness.

For its analysis, USA TODAY used population figures from the Census and the number of hospital beds from the American Hospital Association. The AHA counts reflect figures from community hospitals – all nonfederal, short-term general facilities. It also includes academic medical centers and other teaching hospitals if they are nonfederal. It doesn't include prison hospitals or college infirmaries.

The infection rate of novel coronavirus is still unclear. The analysis used that of a mild flu season. It also assumes that the 13.8% of patients with severe symptoms and 6.1% with critical symptoms would need hospitalization.

The World Health Organization defines a case of COVID-19 as severe if patients have shortness of breath, low blood oxygen, acute respiratory distress, and fluid buildup in their lungs. People in critical condition also experience respiratory failure, septic shock or multiple organ failure.

If everyone in the U.S. who gets that ill requires hospitalization, that would be 4.7 million patients – 5.7 for every domestic hospital bed.
 
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Legacy

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VA Faces Criticism over Lack of Plans to Deal with Coronavirus Pandemic (Military Times, March 13)

The VA, the government's largest health care delivery system, has not laid out a plan to take a greater role in the public health care system in case the coronavirus spreads throughout the country.

"Unfortunately, it's just one of the many kinds of holes or gaps that seem to be in the present federal efforts for planning," former VA Under Secretary of Health Kenneth Kizer said Thursday in a telephone interview with Military.com, referring to criticism the Trump administration has received for its response to the pandemic.

"Telehealth should be an essential part of the response to this epidemic," Kizer said, "but [there's] really no mention of VA working with the private sector to try to coordinate efforts in that regard."

The federal government mandates that the VA support public health centers in case of a public health emergency but, over the years, that emergency plan has mostly been implemented during natural disasters such as Superstorm Sandy and Hurricane Katrina.

"There haven't really been any infectious diseases like this for a long time," Kizer said. "The VA's capabilities for supporting the private sector in an infectious disease epidemic has never really been played out, so it's somewhat uncharted territory."

Richard Kaslow, who held the now-vacant position of VA deputy chief and patient care services officer for public health before retiring in 2012, said the biggest question he dealt with when creating the department's Ebola emergency plan was determining how many veterans to accommodate.

"That required tailoring the planning and assembly of resources -- particularly for the highest level of isolation and personal protection -- in sufficient numbers that were not readily predictable," he said. "No one knew how widely it would spread or how 'big' the influx of patients into the U.S. would be."

The VA could open its doors to non-veteran COVID-19 patients as it's the federal government's only direct response capability; however, Kizer said it would probably take an executive order before the VA would treat civilian patients.

"Right now, the caseload is not sufficient that it would warrant that, but by any number of models of what is likely to happen with this epidemic, in a couple of months, we might be there," he said.

Meanwhile, Ed Timperlake, former VA assistant secretary for public and intergovernmental affairs, said the VA's role -- even if contained to its central mission of helping veterans -- will be vital during an infectious disease outbreak.

"If, for example, COVID-19 sweeps through the homeless population," he said in an email, "VA should be immediately allowed take those veteran patients, thus opening more beds for civilian victims of the virus."
 

Bluto

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I’m down at the local bar. There’s talk of forming a posse and heading to Zuckerbergs to get his supply of toilet paper. “Why should the 1% be the only ones who can wipe their ass?!!” Shits getting real.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Was at my future in laws yesterday for dinner. Her dad sent us home with beer, toilet paper, and ammo for my 9mm. That guy already has father in law of the year wrapped up and we're not married yet.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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What are the odds they do something crazy like shutting down gas stations to stop people from traveling?

I was going to drive down and visit my father in Wichita next Friday, but don't want to get stuck away from my wife and kids.

Good question. I think this whole thing is a legit concern, but completely overblown by the media. They're having a field day. No need for panic/ doomsday shit.

Having spent 8 years in logistics/ supply chain, I promise you we're all fine until they shut down transportation. When trucks stop moving and stop delivering daily products we all need, then get your bunker ready.

Until then, take precautions, let this thing pass, and keep on keepin on.
 

NorthDakota

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I’m down at the local bar. There’s talk of forming a posse and heading to Zuckerbergs to get his supply of toilet paper. “Why should the 1% be the only ones who can wipe their ass?!!” Shits getting real.

I bought a big thing at the target so while the city burns and starvation sets in.. at least I'll have a clean butt.
 

RDU Irish

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A few points that I don't seem to see many good answers to.

WTF are they "testing" for - is it not Coronavirus generically and not COVID-19? MERS and SARS are the cousins - if they were so bad why did we not start annual Coronavirus immunizations to pair with our flu shots? As implied with the reference of pediatric ability to fight this thing - the cousins of COVID19 are running rampant we just have not worried about it b/c the lineage is generally weaksauce with the occasional mutation in to MERS, SARS, COVID19 that is closer to the flu. It is not that easy to run accurate tests - scientists hadn't even isolated COVID19 until last Thursday.

As they do these tests, how many non-COVID19 positives are they getting to give a false impression of impending doom? Everyone wants all this testing without acknowledging the tests are flawed? If you start testing for something that is alive and well everywhere you do not necessarily have an uptick in the event.

Boomers suck - my parents and in-laws are all about closing schools and, well, the global economy but they went to church today. Everyone else needs to social distance so I can go about my life? They are the walking dead normally, now at risk population who aren't productive on any level but get to cause hysteria b/c their generation is at risk? I hate Obama but he did Swine Flu right, this is moronic and Trump is listening to the wrong people. Old people stay home, let the rest of us go about our damn business. This should be treated like any regular flu season - not much more than that.

30k to 70k die in the US to the flu annually - 10x that globally- we should always be taking many of these precautions. Old and infirm should take extra precautions every flu season. This is no different.
 
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