COVID-19

[Circa]

I was at the Dr's office 3 weeks ago and the dr. was clearly sick. I joked and said "you don't have that virus do ya?" She said "I don't understand why people are getting worked up."
It's a game of cat and mouse at today's stage and all we can do is listen to information that might be true. If we are 2 party system than we get 2 party rules. Right and wrong. Too bad that's not reality.

 

[Circa]

NW of Thunder Bay I see. That whole area above and around LS is awesome. I'd love to be shut in right now anywhere up there.

I really miss Hillbilly. We all take stuff for granted when we're little shits growing up. I had times like that fishing under Dunbar Bridge with my grandfather.

Yes! Little Longlac was were we would get supplies.
It's definitely wild and wonderful up there. We had to to take propane and that's how the lights and cooking was done. We heated with a wood stove.
I wish I could go back to then.

 

[Ndaccountant]

He’s right one one point at least,... I can’t get tested. My wife and I have a few symptoms, not feeling well,... but are being rejected from tested/swabbing because we aren’t showing enough symptoms I’m told.

* honestly,... I’ve never felt ‘like this’ (not in a dramatic way, but in a ‘different’ way, my throat is never THIS SORE and I’m short of breath in a strange way) and I don’t think it’s my imagination. I think I have it, but can’t confirm,..

get better man.

 

[Irish YJ]

 

[BeatSC]

I quite literally never stick my nose in these ongoing pissing contests, but have to say it does get tiring reading post after post from you where you constantly think you're smarter than everybody else and know everything. You know ZERO more than Koon or anybody else about this situation and are directing him to read an article from CNN of all places..complete joke of a new outlet that explicitly states it is the authors opinion.

The "mortality rate" from country to country can be dependent on literally hundreds of different factors unique to each country, the demographics of its people, its healthcare capabilities, etc rather than true mortality rate of the illness in a vacuum. Considering every respected health profession who has spoken on the issue has agreed that we have possibly hundreds of thousands of people walking around infected and completely asymptomatic, basic common sense lends itself to the fact that the mortality rate is WAY lower than what is being reported...the problem is if anything is is impossible to pinpoint exactly how low since we're not testing people who arent showing symptoms and in most cases not testing even those showing minor symptoms in the US. So the statistical data currently available is overwhelmed by only serious/critical, fatal, or people showing symptoms.

Your analysis is like trying to calculate the number of people who drive drunk by reporting statistics that show the number of drunk drivers as a percentage of drivers, but only accounting for the drivers who are actually pulled over for traffic violations and acting like there arent hundreds of thousands of people who get behind the wheel over the limit annually but somehow make it home safe and without police intervention.

You need to chill dude...your constant "I know everything, I'm right, you're wrong" attitude is unbecoming.

Word! As you noted when using the numerator and denom8nator approach to mortality the world will count every death that is CV related but possibly millions of cases will go up accounted for. If we actually had the number of cases out there the mortality rate would be more like .001%. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop washing my hands tomorrow or lick the doorknob atTarget either. Be safe and watch some old Notre Dame usc games but only the ones we won which is most of them!!!

 

[BGIF]

Do The Homeless Have To Stay On The Sidewalk?

Do The Homeless Have To Stay On The Sidewalk?

MARCH 19, 2020 / 9:24 AM / UPDATED 3 MINUTES AGO
California issues 'stay home' order;U.S. death toll hits 200
Dan Whitcomb, David Shepardson

LOS ANGELES/WASHINGTON, (Reuters) - California issued an unprecedented statewide “stay at home” order on Thursday for its 40 million residents and Washington warned Americans to return home or stay abroad indefinitely, as the number of coronavirus deaths in the country hit 200.


Governor Gavin Newsom’s directive, effective immediately, marks the largest and most sweeping government clampdown yet in the worsening public health crisis brought on by the COVID-19 outbreak, which he predicted could infect more than half the state within eight weeks.

As authorities ramped up measures to keep the virus from spreading, Washington could announce restrictions on travel across the U.S.-Mexico border as soon as Friday, limiting crossings to essential travel, two officials briefed on the matter said. That would follow a similar measure on Wednesday closing the border with Canada

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

Heard from a little birdie that Illinois is getting the shut down treatment Monday.

Can not confirm.

 

[Irish#1]

If you think this is okay, check out who she is married to.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEW — Sen. Kelly Loeffler Dumped Millions in Stock After Coronavirus Briefing<a href="https://t.co/qxKbzHXC2k">https://t.co/qxKbzHXC2k</a></p>— Sam Stein (@samstein) <a href="https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1240803027193397248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 20, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">NEW: After assuring the public about the government's coronavirus preparedness, Senate Intel chair Richard Burr, in one day, sold off up to $1.6 million is stock. <br><br>A week later, the market began its fall. <br><br>His committee was receiving daily briefings.<a href="https://t.co/LlMDnKnYoQ">https://t.co/LlMDnKnYoQ</a></p>— Robert Faturechi (@RobertFaturechi) <a href="https://twitter.com/RobertFaturechi/status/1240746141236359168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Wild Bill]

He’s right one one point at least,... I can’t get tested. My wife and I have a few symptoms, not feeling well,... but are being rejected from tested/swabbing because we aren’t showing enough symptoms I’m told.

* honestly,... I’ve never felt ‘like this’ (not in a dramatic way, but in a ‘different’ way, my throat is never THIS SORE and I’m short of breath in a strange way) and I don’t think it’s my imagination. I think I have it, but can’t confirm,..

Keep pushing for treatment, camp. Protocal is constantly changing so they may agree to test/treat you moving forward. Get well.

 

[koonja]

This is all bullsh*t, like virtually every post you have made on this topic. They have mortality rates from many places with widespread, comprehensive testing. In South Korea, it's 1% because of the level of care everyone has access to and it affecting an extremely young populous.

So your BEST CASE is 1% in a perfectly managed country under absolutely ideal conditions that we don't have here... your "worst of worst" sure as fuck isn't 1%. People like you are the problem. Stop spreading misinformation and read an article or something -- https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/16/opin...oronavirus-survivability-sepkowitz/index.html

You don't know nearly as many people in the medical field as I do.

I know you love Chaos, you root for it in most cases, it seems to give you something to be excited about.

But this isn't BS. Your response is.

Edit: LOL - Sharing a CNN article. The posterboy media outlet for spreading misinformation. Lax you need to sit this one out.

 

[IrishLax]

I quite literally never stick my nose in these ongoing pissing contests, but have to say it does get tiring reading post after post from you where you constantly think you're smarter than everybody else and know everything. You know ZERO more than Koon or anybody else about this situation and are directing him to read an article from CNN of all places..complete joke of a new outlet that explicitly states it is the authors opinion.

The "mortality rate" from country to country can be dependent on literally hundreds of different factors unique to each country, the demographics of its people, its healthcare capabilities, etc rather than true mortality rate of the illness in a vacuum. Considering every respected health profession who has spoken on the issue has agreed that we have possibly hundreds of thousands of people walking around infected and completely asymptomatic, basic common sense lends itself to the fact that the mortality rate is WAY lower than what is being reported...the problem is if anything is is impossible to pinpoint exactly how low since we're not testing people who arent showing symptoms and in most cases not testing even those showing minor symptoms in the US. So the statistical data currently available is overwhelmed by only serious/critical, fatal, or people showing symptoms.

Your analysis is like trying to calculate the number of people who drive drunk by reporting statistics that show the number of drunk drivers as a percentage of drivers, but only accounting for the drivers who are actually pulled over for traffic violations and acting like there arent hundreds of thousands of people who get behind the wheel over the limit annually but somehow make it home safe and without police intervention.

You need to chill dude...your constant "I know everything, I'm right, you're wrong" attitude is unbecoming.

I don't need to chill, and I don't really care about being polite. Literally the reason we are in this situation as a country is people not taking it seriously soon enough. I'm not going to bite my tongue to anyone who tries to pretend this is a hoax, conspiracy, media hysteria, or any other choice term. They are directly contributing to the spread of this pandemic. There are hundreds of articles that all say the same thing, so if you don't like CNN pick another.

The asymptomatic rate is 15%-20%. And there's a reason I used South Korea's number, not some place like Italy. South Korea did aggressive and early testing of people with symptoms, and also had the highest detection rate for those that were asymptomatic. Nobody knows precisely what the mortality rate is going to end up being, for the same reason the mortality rate for the flu and virtually all infectious diseases is extrapolated. What they do know is that it goes down with early detection and a hospital system that isn't overwhelmed, and it goes up (and outcomes for unrelated ailments also get worse, too) if you're not proactive. Saying the "worst of worst" is 1% is refuted by every meaningful organization and health professional out there.

I'm not going to chill as we head towards a depression because of people like Koon. People telling everyone else this is "no big deal" or going on spring break because #yolo or "everyone will be fine and I hope I get it now" are why we are tracking closer to Italy than South Korea. His entire posting history in this thread is either misinformation or downplaying the importance of treating this seriously. He takes a page out of the tobacco company claiming "my surgeon friend says...." to act like there is a medical professional lending credence to the ideaWhen they talk about the people why people aren't social distancing as instructed, this is why. If everyone - from the top down - just took this as seriously as South Korea we'd probably be 1-2 weeks away from returning to some normalcy. As it stands, we are nowhere close to that and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[koonja]

LaxLuvsChaos

Everyone panic. The mortality rate is definitely right on. There's no way dense cities are only testing those with critical symptoms given limited supply of kits. Those with medium and mild are definitely getting tests just the same. Who cares what Doctors or healthcare companies say.

Do the math. Lol.

 

[IrishLax]

You don't know nearly as many people in the medical field as I do.

I know you love Chaos, you root for it in most cases, it seems to give you something to be excited about.

But this isn't BS. Your response is.

Edit: LOL - Sharing a CNN article. The posterboy media outlet for spreading misinformation. Lax you need to sit this one out.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/6/20-0233_article
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30195-X/fulltext

Tell me which of those is fake news.

Even an optimistic article like this -- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/health/wuhan-coronavirus-deaths.html -- has estimated mortality rates tracking above 1% for "worst of worst". I know you know doctors, so what? Your 'surgeon friend' somehow should be trusted more than all the experts at the CDC and WHO who are saying the opposite?

 

[koonja]

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/6/20-0233_article
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30195-X/fulltext

Tell me which of those is fake news.

Even an optimistic article like this -- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/health/wuhan-coronavirus-deaths.html -- has estimated mortality rates tracking above 1% for "worst of worst". I know you know doctors, so what? Your 'surgeon friend' somehow should be trusted more than all the experts at the CDC and WHO who are saying the opposite?

I speak to Doctors very candidly, virtually all day long. They all say anyone buying the mortality rate at face value deserves to have their undergrad taken away.

From 12:30pm to 2pm I have a 3rd consecutive meeting with the CMO of the largest healthcare company in the world titled: "COVID -19 updates".

Read all the articles you want. You can find articles on each side depending on what you're looking for (you're left leaning).

Want the dial in to talk with the big boys? Or you just going to refresh CNN All day and wait for the "latest and greatest".

By all means - panic. You have your articles to point to. And while most critical thinking medical experts don't buy the reporting is close to accurate, I won't call you dumb.

I forgive you again for doing so to me though.

 

[IrishLax]

LaxLuvsChaos

Everyone panic. The mortality rate is definitely right on. There's no way dense cities are only testing those with critical symptoms given limited supply of kits. Those with medium and mild are definitely getting tests just the same. Who cares what Doctors or healthcare companies say.

Do the math. Lol.

This isn't funny, which is why I'm reacting how I am. Your cavalier attitude is why this is still spreading how it is and why we aren't going to be through this in a couple weeks with minimal deaths.

Doctors are taking it seriously. Experts are taking it seriously. This is well documented everywhere. You are spreading misinformation, based on your "surgeon friend."

I never said mortality rates are spot on, I used South Korea -- who did the best job of early testing of anyone with symptoms as well as those who were asymptomatic -- as a baseline to show your "worst of worst" number was a lie. What you care about is "your summer" and the stock market and making Trump look good. That's all you post about in this thread. I care about people following the direction of experts in order to curb the spread and lower mortality rates.

 

[koonja]

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/6/20-0233_article
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30195-X/fulltext

Tell me which of those is fake news.

Even an optimistic article like this -- https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/health/wuhan-coronavirus-deaths.html -- has estimated mortality rates tracking above 1% for "worst of worst". I know you know doctors, so what? Your 'surgeon friend' somehow should be trusted more than all the experts at the CDC and WHO who are saying the opposite?

This took me 5 seconds. There are articles on each side. Read this.

But I'll continue to form my opinion from talking to people in the field, privately, and remaining intimately involved with the HC industries response which isn't all in the articles.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17...e-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

 

[IrishLion]

LaxLuvsChaos

Everyone panic. The mortality rate is definitely right on. There's no way dense cities are only testing those with critical symptoms given limited supply of kits. Those with medium and mild are definitely getting tests just the same. Who cares what Doctors or healthcare companies say.

Do the math. Lol.

I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees...

The mortality rate being low is good, but that doesn't mean this isn't a big deal. It seems everyone in the medical industry besides your surgeon friend is preparing for an alarming situation to unfold in the next two weeks.

And a low mortality rate is still devastating when the transmission rate is so high, and when it seems such a large portion of the population is set to be infected.

I hope the social distancing and other measures being taken will curb the infection rate, keeping the worst-case death toll a thing of conjecture instead of reality. I hope when this is all over, you'll be able to crow that your surgeon friend was on the money about it not being a big deal.

But, again, the entire way to avoid a total calamity is to get everyone to overreact, which conveniently makes the hot-take artists feel like they were right.

 

[IrishLax]

I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees...

The mortality rate being low is good, but that doesn't mean this isn't a big deal. It seems everyone in the medical industry besides your surgeon friend is preparing for an alarming situation to unfold in the next two weeks.

And a low mortality rate is still devastating when the transmission rate is so high, and when it seems such a large portion of the population is set to be infected.

I hope the social distancing and other measures being taken will curb the infection rate, keeping the worst-case death toll a thing of conjecture instead of reality. I hope when this is all over, you'll be able to crow that your surgeon friend was on the money about it not being a big deal.

But, again, the entire way to avoid a total calamity is to get everyone to overreact, which conveniently makes the hot-take artists feel like they were right.

Exactly, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone "overreacts" things will turn out well, which is what EVERYONE wants. And then people like Koon will unironically say "see, I told you it wouldn't be bad!" But if people continue to act like this is a "hoax" or "hysteria" it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Listen to experts, that's all I'm asking. I get that it was confusing a few weeks ago when there was inconsistent messaging from the top, but that's not happening anymore.

 

[IrishLion]

Exactly, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone "overreacts" things will turn out well, which is what EVERYONE wants. And then people like Koon will unironically say "see, I told you it wouldn't be bad!" But if people continue to act like this is a "hoax" or "hysteria" it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Listen to experts, that's all I'm asking. I get that it was confusing a few weeks ago when there was inconsistent messaging from the top, but that's not happening anymore.

You would think people like Koon would realize that even Trump went from "this is a hoax" to "let's start taking care of people to make sure this doesn't ruin them" to make them realize that this might, in fact, be a big deal.

I know I said no politics earlier in the thread, but I do have to give Trump some credit for actually turning his messaging around and taking this seriously. He's let the medical experts in the White House take over, rather than putting his foot in his mouth like he did last month.

I also have to give him credit for keeping his big-business friends on deck and visible to keep the economy from totally cratering.

Things aren't as bad as they could have been, thanks to some Actually Good steps taken by our government, and businesses actually taking care of their constituents... but they could have been better had Trump listened to his team in late January, too.

 

[IrishLax]

Amazing how wrong you often are.

You literally said a few pages back that this hysteria fueled by foreign governments in some worldwide anti-Trump conspiracy.

 

[Irish2155]

GF just said IN is thinking about closing all liquor stores. Not sure if true or not but if so then the shit just got real!!

**Edit - this is in Connecticut she just clarified.

 

[NDdomer2]

GF just said IN is thinking about closing all liquor stores. Not sure if true or not but if so then the shit just got real!!

**Edit - this is in Connecticut she just clarified.

im pretty sure PA already has.

All i want to say on the koon/lax saga is im not sure koon having a cavalier attitude directly attributes to infection rate? Do we know if he is actively attending public places? spreading news to NOT social distance on public forums where people take his opinion serious (cuz that aint here).

I think its possible to feel that some of our measures currently might not be needed but to also be following them. I would say that is a large percentage of america right now.

 

[tussin]

Exactly, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. If everyone "overreacts" things will turn out well, which is what EVERYONE wants. And then people like Koon will unironically say "see, I told you it wouldn't be bad!" But if people continue to act like this is a "hoax" or "hysteria" it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Depends on how you view an acceptable outcome. I understand the goal of flattening the curve through social distancing, but the US needs to get their shit together in terms of beds, masks, and ventilators. Right now we are just delaying the inevitable because the secondary spike of infections will be just as bad and a 4 week quarantine without improvements to healthcare capacity accomplishes little except destroying our economy.

 

[koonja]

I don't have a Cavalier attitude towards this. Doctors agree it spreads fast. They also agree it isn't nearly as deadly as people think.

Lax is burried in his left winged articles so of course he's fear mongering.

You using articles available to the public, almost always with a political agenda, compared to the info I'm getting first hand, candidly, from experts across the healthcare field... It's like a monkey arguing with a lawyer on this one.

I know that upsets you and you want to control the opinion of the board, but I think you should sit this one out if you're only as close as "articles". This might not be your tree to bark up. I'm sure you think I'm sounding "cocky". I don't care. I hear enough on a daily basis from the people actually fighting this that I've heard enough. Not going to apologize for being in the middle of this particular one.

Moving on from Professor Chaos ----

As for overall impact - I believe the social and economic impact of this will be grave for many families. It's not as simple as "save the most lives possible". If that were the case, let's stop flying planes and driving cars. Let's prohibit sugar. Loss of quality of life also needs to be factored in. If we save 5,000 lives across the nation but 15,000 million have lost their jobs, 5 million have lost their homes, 1 million are now homeless (spiking suicide rates), etc.

Was it worth it?

 

[IrishLax]

My wife wrapping up an all-hands-on-deck call Fortune 500 company she works at. They just said this will be much worse than the 2008 financial crisis, and that they're furloughing all non-critical personnel for 60-90 days.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Depends on how you view an acceptable outcome. I understand the goal of flattening the curve through social distancing, but the US needs to get their shit together in terms of beds, masks, and ventilators. Right now we are just delaying the inevitable because the secondary spike of infections will be just as bad and a 4 week quarantine without improvements to healthcare capacity accomplishes little except destroying our economy.

I was hoping to see massive deployment of tests for identifying cases early and letting others with symptoms know they didn't have it. It appears that's not happening (we are still being told to wait it out at home unless we need urgent medical attention) and I don't know that this window of time is legitimately helping prepare for hospitalizations. So I don't really know what we're accomplishing right now.

 

[IrishLax]

im pretty sure PA already has.

All i want to say on the koon/lax saga is im not sure koon having a cavalier attitude directly attributes to infection rate? Do we know if he is actively attending public places? spreading news to NOT social distance on public forums where people take his opinion serious (cuz that aint here).

I think its possible to feel that some of our measures currently might not be needed but to also be following them. I would say that is a large percentage of america right now.

The people who are saying this isn't a big deal are overwhelming the ones also not taking social distancing seriously. They're also influencing other people to not take social distancing and self-quarantine seriously even if they're not being a bad actor themselves. When you downplay the severity of the illness, you actively encourage people to not follow the protocols in place. Koon literally said that he hoped he got it and could get it over with so he can enjoy his summer. That's irresponsible.

 

[koonja]

The people who are saying this isn't a big deal are overwhelming the ones also not taking social distancing seriously. They're also influencing other people to not take social distancing and self-quarantine seriously even if they're not being a bad actor themselves. When you downplay the severity of the illness, you actively encourage people to not follow the protocols in place. Koon literally said that he hoped he got it and could get it over with so he can enjoy his summer. That's irresponsible.

Classic CNN'er. Make statement without context.

I said if I were single and lived alone, I would gladly take it, get past it, so I can get back to life and not be infecting people.

You're turning into Fake News of IE. That's a lonely island Professor Chaos.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't have a Cavalier attitude towards this. Doctors agree it spreads fast. They also agree it isn't nearly as deadly as people think.

Lax is burried in his left winged articles so of course he's fear mongering.

You using articles available to the public, almost always with a political agenda, compared to the info I'm getting first hand, candidly, from experts across the healthcare field... It's like a monkey arguing with a lawyer on this one.

I know that upsets you and you want to control the opinion of the board, but I think you should sit this one out if you're only as close as "articles". This might not be your tree to bark up. I'm sure you think I'm sounding "cocky". I don't care. I hear enough on a daily basis from the people actually fighting this that I've heard enough. Not going to apologize for being in the middle of this particular one.

Moving on from Professor Chaos ----

As for overall impact - I believe the social and economic impact of this will be grave for many families. It's not as simple as "save the most lives possible". If that were the case, let's stop flying planes and driving cars. Let's prohibit sugar. Loss of quality of life also needs to be factored in. If we save 5,000 lives across the nation but 15,000 million have lost their jobs, 5 million have lost their homes, 1 million are now homeless (spiking suicide rates), etc.

Was it worth it?

What you're still failing comprehend is that all of that will happen anyways, just in different fashion, if you don't do anything and try to continue on "business as usual." Italy tried a laissez faire attitude and it failed, resulting in a completely different type of potential economic and societal disruption than quarantining.

Trump also tried to downplay the risk/seriousness for weeks. Then he and his experts paid attention to what was going on in Europe, and he pivoted. Why? Because it was absolutely apparent that treating this like the typical flu just creates a completely different type of economic disaster but a disaster nonetheless.

I understand that it is way easier to just attack a straw man or focus on unknowable mortality rates (which are dependent on things like treatment being available and many other factors). I don't give a shit about "controlling opinions," but you better believe I'm going to call out dangerous misinformation when I see it. People like you are going to contribute to this being a much bigger crisis than it needs to be.

 

[koonja]

What you're still failing comprehend is that all of that will happen anyways, just in different fashion, if you don't do anything and try to continue on "business as usual." Italy tried a laissez faire attitude and it failed, resulting in a completely different type of potential economic and societal disruption than quarantining.

Trump also tried to downplay the risk/seriousness for weeks. Then he and his experts paid attention to what was going on in Europe, and he pivoted. Why? Because it was absolutely apparent that treating this like the typical flu just creates a completely different type of economic disaster but a disaster nonetheless.

I understand that it is way easier to just attack a straw man or focus on unknowable mortality rates (which are dependent on things like treatment being available and many other factors). I don't give a shit about "controlling opinions," but you better believe I'm going to call out dangerous misinformation when I see it. People like you are going to contribute to this being a much bigger crisis than it needs to be.

You're going nuts. For the record, I am social distancing. My family of 3 has been taking it easy and in home since Monday and we will continue to for another week to see where this goes. It's the right thing to do.

But the mortality rate is wrong. Doctors and other health care experts don't believe this is NEARLY as deadly as people like you think it is. This isn't one person's opinion that's in the field, I literally have these conversations in the most private of meetings every day.

You say you don't control the board's opinions (you do this often, BTW). Yet you're telling anyone who's not taking CNN articles at face value, anyone thinking critically beyond what the cherry-picked articles say, anyone who actually works in this or has people in the medical field, to buzz off and that they're spreading "misinformation" if they don't agree with your opinion.

That's nuts, man.