BVG Fired

[Crazy Balki]

So Lou S. at BGI did a Q/A with BK recently. Very similar to Hansen's. Same message, whether it's right or not. Personnel is the issue. He's very confident they've recruited the right talent and we'll collectively see better results. He once again made mention that the current results, run game specifically, isn't cutting it.

Hard to argue against that, whatever your stance on BVG is. Personnel and depth has been a problem. The 2012 and 2013 were highly disappointing defensive classes from a depth perspective. Between those 2 classes, ND landed a grand total of 2 DT's and 2 DE's (one being Matuska). That's not gonna cut it. 2014 alone had TWICE as many DL committed than both those years combined.

It's no surprise that our defense has struggled to overcome that lack of experienced depth. 2014-16 may not have a Jaylon Smith-level talent, but it certainly has better depth and answers several needs on that side of the ball.

 

[Luckylucci]

Talent has not been an issue, at all. The right talent might be the issue but it's clearly not talent in general. There are a lot of stars on this team (though I don't really care for that) and have been for years now. I'd agree that it might not fit what he wants to do, fair. But it's not that he has a roster full of no talent.

My argument has and always will be, he's not flexible enough to put that talent in the right places for success. If he gets the right talent in the right places then why do I care, right? I just want a good defense. How he does doesn't matter to me.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Talent has not been an issue, at all. The right talent might be the issue but it's clearly not talent in general. There are a lot of stars on this team (though I don't really care for that) and have been for years now. I'd agree that it might not fit what he wants to do, fair. But it's not that he has a roster full of no talent.

My argument has and always will be, he's not flexible enough to put that talent in the right places for success. If he gets the right talent in the right places then why do I care, right? I just want a good defense. How he does doesn't matter to me.

That's not what I said. 2012-13 didn't have the depth and that has hurt us. You can't expect to recruit just 4 DL's in 2 cycles and expect things to be just fine.

 

[TheChosen1]

Talent has not been an issue, at all. The right talent might be the issue but it's clearly not talent in general. There are a lot of stars on this team (though I don't really care for that) and have been for years now. I'd agree that it might not fit what he wants to do, fair. But it's not that he has a roster full of no talent.

My argument has and always will be, he's not flexible enough to put that talent in the right places for success. If he gets the right talent in the right places then why do I care, right? I just want a good defense. How he does doesn't matter to me.

I agree. I asked the question on a podcast and they didn't see it happening but I see BK breaking character and making a move with BVG mid season and promoting elston.

 

[House16]

This has been mentioned numerous times, but the idea that a true freshman 3rd corner's injury pre-season irreperably damaged the defense is inane. It just shows that BVG isn't flexible enough. If 5 straight top 20 classes doesn't yield enough depth for you to run your scheme then you need to be changing your scheme, not waiting for the right players to come in. Ridiculous.

 

[Crazy Balki]

This has been mentioned numerous times, but the idea that a true freshman 3rd corner's injury pre-season irreperably damaged the defense is inane. It just shows that BVG isn't flexible enough. If 5 straight top 20 classes doesn't yield enough depth for you to run your scheme then you need to be changing your scheme, not waiting for the right players to come in. Ridiculous.

It wasn't just Crawford, though. It's one thing if Crawford was the key to irreparably damaging the defensive potential for 2015, but there was more to it than just that. ND had one of the most injury plagued squads in the country last year, and the depth wasn't there to overcome it. That's where those lacking '12 and '13 classes come into play, and they're woefully bad on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Talent has not been an issue, at all. The right talent might be the issue but it's clearly not talent in general. There are a lot of stars on this team (though I don't really care for that) and have been for years now. I'd agree that it might not fit what he wants to do, fair. But it's not that he has a roster full of no talent.

My argument has and always will be, he's not flexible enough to put that talent in the right places for success. If he gets the right talent in the right places then why do I care, right? I just want a good defense. How he does doesn't matter to me.

Okay, my question to you. Who goes where then?

The sad fact is that, no, we did not have a lot of stars on this team, at least defensively. The roster was top heavy, which accurately reflects the junior and senior classes perfectly. A few stars at the top, but very little depth, if any.

 

[STLDomer]

Okay, my question to you. Who goes where then?

It's not a matter of positions as much as the scheme run. You can't run a complex scheme that warrants players that fit specific molds and functions if those players don't exist on your roster. Change it up to a scheme that does fit the many talented players at your disposal.

 

[Crazy Balki]

It's not a matter of positions as much as the scheme run. You can't run a complex scheme that warrants players that fit specific molds and functions if those players don't exist on your roster. Change it up to a scheme that does fit the many talented players at your disposal.

Let's just say, for fairness sake, Diaco stays in 2014. Who plays our ILB spots? Who plays NG? Who plays CAT? You still likely have to ride with Redfield at FS. That doesn't change anything.

Let's just remember that when BVG took over, John Turner was the projected SAM backer, prior to Onwualu being moved. Anyway you like it, there wasn't much scheming around those glaring personnel issues. You have apparent depth problems at Safety, LB and interior defensive line. Those don't just magically vanish by adapting your scheme.

 

[Irish#1]

All of you have some valid points. IMO, the key is to adjust and play to your talents strengths until you have the talent that fits your scheme. The only thing I can think of, is that they feel the best way to teach the team the scheme is to play it regardless of if the right players are on the roster. I've said this earlier in the thread. There is no excuse this year. BVG has his players. If he doesn't produce this year, I would expect a change after the season.

 

[garyasher]

We should make one adjustment in this conversation. BVG has only 2 classes of recruits. He arrived very late in 2013, late Dec, I think just after the Pin STripe Bowl, so the 2014 class that arrived as freshman weren't all "his guys". They are mixed with Diaco's guys. He basically had a month to evaluate and make visits.

So he really only has 2015 class and now the new freshman that just arrived for summer school/camp.

I think he played a big role in adding depth to the line in 2014 and helped Kelly reel in Morgan , Hayes and a few others.

 

[ulukinatme]

That's not what I said. 2012-13 didn't have the depth and that has hurt us. You can't expect to recruit just 4 DL's in 2 cycles and expect things to be just fine.

Hard to make room for DL when we recruited 25 CAT linebackers in the few years before Diaco's departure. #UnleashTheCatAttackFormation

 

[rocket66]

Take a hike, imo.


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[IrishLion]

Diaco couldn't recruit depth to save his life.

BVG can't adjust his scheme to account for a lack of depth to save his life.


The good thing is that this is year 3 under BVG. Even if there are injuries, there are at least "numbers" now to fill in without our defense looking like a total MASH unit. Last year, we couldn't even play an appropriate nickel defense because we lost two corners... this year, if we lose two corners, we'll at least have guys to fill in without worrying about their redshirts, and can still operate the base defensive scheme.

Also, continuity is huuuuuuuuge in the college game. We lost some superstars, which will undoubtedly hurt... but this defense has a chance to be better than it was last year. We lost a generational player in Jaylon, and a big-time player in Sheldon. You can't replace those guys as individuals, but another year in the system, coupled with OTHER personnel changes, should result in the opportunity to field a better defense as a whole.

 

[Luckylucci]

Okay, my question to you. Who goes where then?

The sad fact is that, no, we did not have a lot of stars on this team, at least defensively. The roster was top heavy, which accurately reflects the junior and senior classes perfectly. A few stars at the top, but very little depth, if any.

Last years squad had a lot of talent on it, not sure what you are talking about. Rochell, Day, Smith, KVR, Luke, Redfield, Shumate, Morgan, Hayes, Cage, Trumbetti, Jones and Tillery are all 4 star players and top 300 recruits. That's a lot of talent. Is it the right fit? They say no. That's fair, I'll let them have that. However, that is talent and not top heavy at all, its a starting roster of top recruits.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Last years squad had a lot of talent on it, not sure what you are talking about. Rochell, Day, Smith, KVR, Luke, Redfield, Shumate, Morgan, Hayes, Cage, Trumbetti, Jones and Tillery are all 4 star players and top 300 recruits. That's a lot of talent. Is it the right fit? They say no. That's fair, I'll let them have that. However, that is talent and not top heavy at all, its a starting roster of top recruits.

Most of what you listed, I wouldn't consider "stars", at least not last year. Don't know what game you were watching but Shumate and Redfield were far from stars. Just because they were highly ranked recruits, doesn't mean they automatically translated to the college game.

Jay Hayes put himself in Kelly's doghouse and wasn't impressing during the 2015 season. He has since changed his tune and has turned things around. Russell played on an injured leg, and it showed. He wasn't terrible, but he struggled in coverage. Jarron Jones missed the entire season. Tillery was a true freshman. Morgan was still struggling to learn his craft and got hurt halfway through the season. Cage was still a true sophomore and was dealing with frequent nagging injuries. Trumbetti, still a true sophomore and had to play out of position most of the season.

While yes, you can say there's talent there, but most of it is either to young, injured or turns out is not very good. Having to rely heavily on underclassmen rarely yields positive results. The problem is that our upperclassmen didn't have much in terms of depth on the defense.

 

[woolybug25]

Most of what you listed, I wouldn't consider "stars", at least not last year. Don't know what game you were watching but Shumate and Redfield were far from stars. Just because they were highly ranked recruits, doesn't mean they automatically translated to the college game.

Jay Hayes put himself in Kelly's doghouse and wasn't impressing during the 2015 season. He has since changed his tune and has turned things around. Russell played on an injured leg, and it showed. He wasn't terrible, but he struggled in coverage. Jarron Jones missed the entire season. Tillery was a true freshman. Morgan was still struggling to learn his craft and got hurt halfway through the season. Cage was still a true sophomore and was dealing with frequent nagging injuries. Trumbetti, still a true sophomore and had to play out of position most of the season.

While yes, you can say there's talent there, but most of it is either to young, injured or turns out is not very good. Having to rely heavily on underclassmen rarely yields positive results. The problem is that our upperclassmen didn't have much in terms of depth on the defense.

Under your definition of "stars", there is literally no way for a team to underperform with them, as their performance is the metric of whether they're a star. Your logic is confusing to me on a regular basis.

 

[pkt77242]

Diaco couldn't recruit depth to save his life.

BVG can't adjust his scheme to account for a lack of depth to save his life.


The good thing is that this is year 3 under BVG. Even if there are injuries, there are at least "numbers" now to fill in without our defense looking like a total MASH unit. Last year, we couldn't even play an appropriate nickel defense because we lost two corners... this year, if we lose two corners, we'll at least have guys to fill in without worrying about their redshirts, and can still operate the base defensive scheme.

Also, continuity is huuuuuuuuge in the college game. We lost some superstars, which will undoubtedly hurt... but this defense has a chance to be better than it was last year. We lost a generational player in Jaylon, and a big-time player in Sheldon. You can't replace those guys as individuals, but another year in the system, coupled with OTHER personnel changes, should result in the opportunity to field a better defense as a whole.

LB is pretty thin if injuries strike and S isn't much better this year.

Also we had the numbers to run a nickel last year, Russell, Luke, Watkins, Butler, Coleman, and White (who redshirted) and that doesn't even cover Farley who could play the nickel. I think that it was a matter of not having a CB who was ready to play who was a fit at NB.

 

[Luckylucci]

Most of what you listed, I wouldn't consider "stars", at least not last year. Don't know what game you were watching but Shumate and Redfield were far from stars. Just because they were highly ranked recruits, doesn't mean they automatically translated to the college game.

Jay Hayes put himself in Kelly's doghouse and wasn't impressing during the 2015 season. He has since changed his tune and has turned things around. Russell played on an injured leg, and it showed. He wasn't terrible, but he struggled in coverage. Jarron Jones missed the entire season. Tillery was a true freshman. Morgan was still struggling to learn his craft and got hurt halfway through the season. Cage was still a true sophomore and was dealing with frequent nagging injuries. Trumbetti, still a true sophomore and had to play out of position most of the season.

While yes, you can say there's talent there, but most of it is either to young, injured or turns out is not very good. Having to rely heavily on underclassmen rarely yields positive results. The problem is that our upperclassmen didn't have much in terms of depth on the defense.

Morgan, Hayes, and all the players I mentioned are still talented players. Whatever reason you want to come up with to support your previous and not accurate statement is up to you. That doesn't make it right. There is and has been a lot of talent on this defense. Enough talent to be successful with. All the players I previously stated had a lot of stars next to there names coming out of HS, that's just a fact.

 

[CIrishWin]

Possible replacements

Luke Fickell
Ron English
Randy Shannon
John Chavis

 

[woolybug25]

Possible replacements

Luke Fickell
Ron English
Randy Shannon
John Chavis

I literally do not want any of those guys.

Give me Pelini or give me death!

 

[zelezo vlk]

If something happens, I'd love to see BK pry Brady Hoke away from Oregon. Though I doubt that could happen.

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[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I literally do not want any of those guys.

Give me Pelini or give me death!

Pelini would be an incredible add. Or Muschamp if BVG finds a way to prolong his time at ND by an additional year or two. If we add either of those guys, I'd actually believe we have a chance at a natty.

It just feels like we're incapable of fielding a complete team. We have one piece or two but we're always missing something.

 

[Luckylucci]

Pelini would be an incredible add. Or Muschamp if BVG finds a way to prolong his time at ND by an additional year or two. If we add either of those guys, I'd actually believe we have a chance at a natty.

It just feels like we're incapable of fielding a complete team. We have one piece or two but we're always missing something.

If we hired Muschamp, I'd literally throw up in my mouth. He's a terrible fit for ND.

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In 4 yrs under DC Bob Diaco, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> allowed 28 plays of 40 yds or more. In 2 years under DC Brian VanGorder, Irish have allowed 31.</p>— Tim Prister (@timprister) <a href="https://twitter.com/timprister/status/766317186428305411">August 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[gkIrish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In 4 yrs under DC Bob Diaco, <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NotreDame?src=hash">#NotreDame</a> allowed 28 plays of 40 yds or more. In 2 years under DC Brian VanGorder, Irish have allowed 31.</p>— Tim Prister (@timprister) <a href="https://twitter.com/timprister/status/766317186428305411">August 18, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Meatloaf]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, give me Phil Snow from Temple.

 

[koonja]

I'd take Polini in a heartbeat if he was an aggressive recruiter. IDK if he is or isn't, but after having a guy who sits on his hands like Van Gorder, I want our next guy to be someone who can go out and get defensive players.

 

[tussin]

Why is this being discussed right now? Weird bump.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

If we hired Muschamp, I'd literally throw up in my mouth. He's a terrible fit for ND.

Fair enough. I know almost nothing about him except he's incapable of fielding a competent offense and he almost always fields an phenomenal defense. I'll take your word and hope for Bo.

I want a great defensive coach and a good fit at ND.

I guess I ultimately hope all of the excuses about why BVGs scheme hasn't been successful, turn out to be true and we see a master at work this season. Then I hope he replicates that over his time with ND.