Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[Bogtrotter07]

So this last slew of comments :

BVG should have been fired earlier, hell, even never hired but that is on BK and his superiors.

I think it is with extreme hubris, and zero brains that anyone would critique any given position coach at Notre Dame, for anything this season.

For a fact, fundamentals on defense are being taught differently, (as of 9/25/16).

Kelly is the whole problem with what happened at ND this season. Just like you cannot go back in time, from a physicists' standpoint, you can't separate strands of problems that existed in the fabric, without ruining the whole fabric. No, you have to fix the fucking loom!

If any of my point(s) are valid, proof of what I say is forthcoming. ND shut a very productive offense down for the second through fourth quarter.

We will see in coming weeks. I am betting a simpler defense will thrive, talent will rise, and the better defensive play will unburden the offense.

Kelly said this wouldn't be corrected overnight, meaning quickly. But that was yet another point upon which he was wrong.

He has a full arsenal, ready to go. The mistakes he made that specifically resulted in a 1 and 3 start seem to respond to the antidote of addition by subtraction.

And about this seeming criticism of Kelly : Yes Brian Kelly has made plenty of mistakes. But he has also done a lot right. And at the same time he made the mistakes that hamstrung the team this year, he did an awful lot right, by gum!

 

[stlnd01]

I wasn't an ND fan until I came here for grad school, so while I was alive during 3-9, I was not following ND. I have a number of friends who were students during that time, though, and who agree with me.

As for selling our soul, it of course depends on what the precise issue is. In the actual case of Meyer himself, we apparently offered him 1 million a year in 04, while Florida was offering him 2 million. We obviously should have offered him 3 million. Offering coaches more money than everyone else is not selling our soul.

I do not support 'lowering' standards any more than they have been, even if that would help the program win more (although as I have emphasized I do not believe that standards are the main problem). That said, it is impossible to say whether or not Meyer's (or someone similar's) demands on the program would be reasonable without knowing exactly what they were/would be and also knowing what the situation is now. If OSU was still humming along with Tressel, and Meyer's departure from Florida had happened a couple years later, I think he would have come here if the price was right.

Maybe. It's impossible to know, really. Money probably was an issue back in the mid-2000s. I very much doubt it's a major issue today. Since Swarbrick took over our approach to spending on football has changed notably.
But I do think the Notre Dame job comes with some challenges that some other comparable powers don't face. Some of those (academic, disciplinary and relationship between the school and the program) are self-imposed. They're choices, that reflect values that I - for one - believe the university should strive to maintain, even if it means not landing a five-star recruit or suspending a key player for the fall semester because he can't keep a 1.8 GPA. There are coaches who will embrace that challenge, as I generally feel Kelly does. There are others who'll look at that and say maybe they'd rather coach at one of the other 10 or 15 comparable major programs, even if we offer a little more cash. It's not like these guys have time to spend their money anyway.
Ultimately, you don't know how a coach would decide about our job until it's time to decide. But dumping Kelly right now in hopes of landing one of a very small handful of even-more-sure things (Meyer, Saban and who?) seems reckless, not to mention unnecessary.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Wow I disagree pretty strongly with most of this. How long ago did you attend ND? To call them a "sleazy, secular institution" because they allow professors to "teach feminism and homosexuality" is pretty nuts. The only people I know who think ND isn't exceedingly Catholic are people who also think global warming isn't real and Obama was born in Kenya.

Catholic in name? Like Pelosi and Biden? I believe in global warming, Obama is a US citizen and ND appears nominally catholic from the outside. There are still some great religious professors at ND but exceedingly Catholic it is not.

I suppose it all depends on who you are and what you believe about the essence of Catholicism.

 

[DCirishfan]

Catholic in name? Like Pelosi and Biden? I believe in global warming, Obama is a US citizen and ND appears nominally catholic from the outside. There are still some great religious professors at ND but exceedingly Catholic it is not.

I suppose it all depends on who you are and what you believe about the essence of Catholicism.

Not as bad as Georgetown the Jesuits are the worst. They do everything they can to pretend Catholicism has nothing to do with them. And I don't like it.

 

[GBdomer]

You are not a Notre Dame fan. You are a troll!

A true fan would be happy that the team they loved won. A true fan would root for their team, even if the team was 1-11!


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This couldn't be further from the truth. Just because someone disagrees with you and isn't gloating about ND doesn't make him a troll. It's a hard reality to everything he said being the truth. Sure we won, but are you really happy with the way we played and giving up 500+ points to flipping Syracuse? Who said he wasn't a true fan or anything like that? BK hasn't won a big game since 2012 and loses almost all the big games, sure he is a great coach for ND and he's brought this program back from the dead but he hasn't taken it to the level we all thought he would. Sure he's had a couple great years but he got a lot of breaks in those years and other then those two years he's been very average. One great season with one good season with five average seasons doesn't cut it at ND IMO

 

[Domina Nostra]

Catholic in name? Like Pelosi and Biden? I believe in global warming, Obama is a US citizen and ND appears nominally catholic from the outside. There are still some great religious professors at ND but exceedingly Catholic it is not.

I suppose it all depends on who you are and what you believe about the essence of Catholicism.

This is how I see it too. I think it depends on where you stand on this document:

Land O' Lakes Conference and Statement

Are Catholic Universities supposed to teach from an explicitly Catholic worldview?

So, for example, an ethics class might expose you to all sorts of perspectives on all kinds of issues--and like Thomas Aquinas, strive to present the strongest argument for each viewpoint--but the purpose of the class would be (at least in part) to make sure the student understood the Catholic doctrine and was taught by people who were not hostile to it (whether or not the student personally accepted it).

A history class would, shock, teach the Resurrection as an actual historical event while exposing students to the prevalent historical methods and the reasons that some of these discounts various aspects of the faith.

In other words, they would act like all the schools that taught our grandfathers and on back.

 

[Cackalacky]

This is how I see it too. I think it depends on where you stand on this document:

Land O' Lakes Conference and Statement

Are Catholic Universities supposed to teach from an explicitly Catholic worldview?

So, for example, an ethics class might expose you to all sorts of perspectives on all kinds of issues--and like Thomas Aquinas, strive to present the strongest argument for each viewpoint--but the purpose of the class would be (at least in part) to make sure the student understood the Catholic doctrine and was taught by people who were not hostile to it (whether or not the student personally accepted it).

A history class would, shock, teach the Resurrection as an actual historical event while exposing students to the prevalent historical methods and the reasons that some of these discounts various aspects of the faith.

In other words, they would act like all the schools that taught our grandfathers and on back.

Catholic in name? Like Pelosi and Biden? I believe in global warming, Obama is a US citizen and ND appears nominally catholic from the outside. There are still some great religious professors at ND but exceedingly Catholic it is not.

I suppose it all depends on who you are and what you believe about the essence of Catholicism.

Per the ND Mission:

The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic academic community of higher learning, animated from its origins by the Congregation of Holy Cross. The University is dedicated to the pursuit and sharing of truth for its own sake. As a Catholic university, one of its distinctive goals is to provide a forum where, through free inquiry and open discussion, the various lines of Catholic thought may intersect with all the forms of knowledge found in the arts, sciences, professions, and every other area of human scholarship and creativity.

The intellectual interchange essential to a university requires, and is enriched by, the presence and voices of diverse scholars and students. The Catholic identity of the University depends upon, and is nurtured by, the continuing presence of a predominant number of Catholic intellectuals. This ideal has been consistently maintained by the University leadership throughout its history. What the University asks of all its scholars and students, however, is not a particular creedal affiliation, but a respect for the objectives of Notre Dame and a willingness to enter into the conversation that gives it life and character. Therefore, the University insists upon academic freedom that makes open discussion and inquiry possible.

 

[kmoose]

BK hasn't won a big game since 2012

You keep saying this, despite the fact that it is not true. In 2013, BK beat a Michigan State team that ended the season 13-1. And anytime you play the #1 defense in the SEC in a bowl game, it is a big game.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

This couldn't be further from the truth. Just because someone disagrees with you and isn't gloating about ND doesn't make him a troll. It's a hard reality to everything he said being the truth. Sure we won, but are you really happy with the way we played and giving up 500+ points to flipping Syracuse? Who said he wasn't a true fan or anything like that? BK hasn't won a big game since 2012 and loses almost all the big games, sure he is a great coach for ND and he's brought this program back from the dead but he hasn't taken it to the level we all thought he would. Sure he's had a couple great years but he got a lot of breaks in those years and other then those two years he's been very average. One great season with one good season with five average seasons doesn't cut it at ND IMO

Not drinking at all.

I became a fan in 93. Saw the end of the Holtz era, Davies, Ty and Weis eras. I do not want to ever go back. Brian Kelly is the best Notre Dame coach I have ever seen. I'm to afraid to see Notre Dame without him.


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I can't take the risk and go back to what I witnessed from 1994-2009.


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[irishog77]

You keep saying this, despite the fact that it is not true. In 2013, BK beat a Michigan State team that ended the season 13-1. And anytime you play the #1 defense in the SEC in a bowl game, it is a big game.

I think in retrospect, the spartan victory was a big one, but at the time they played, were they even ranked? ND already had 1 loss when they met. I don't think anybody, on a national level, ever talked about the matchup being a "big game." Then after, the spartans went on a roll and ND went on to lose several more, so the game was always an afterthought. Yes, as it turns out, BK beat a really good team, but I think it's tough to say BK had a big win at the time of the game.

And yes, it was nice to beat lsu (especially for ND fans and the turmoil the team faced that season with EG and the TO's), but it was a 4-loss lsu team...who spent more than 1/4 of the season unranked...in a 3rd tier bowl game. I think it was a "big game" to ND fans because of the previously mentioned turmoil (and BK's QB-coaching-future), but games featuring a 7-5 team versus an 8-4 teams, where both teams finish the season unranked aren't big games, on any national level.

 

[irishtrain]

Simply put I think this guy is a top 5 coach in the country who has a team void of the type of defensive players needed to compete like Notre dame and their fans want them to compete. They have nothing on defense. If he's at LSU he wins a title.

 

[Redbar]

Per the ND Mission:

The University of Notre Dame is a Catholic academic community of higher learning, animated from its origins by the Congregation of Holy Cross. The University is dedicated to the pursuit and sharing of truth for its own sake. As a Catholic university, one of its distinctive goals is to provide a forum where, through free inquiry and open discussion, the various lines of Catholic thought may intersect with all the forms of knowledge found in the arts, sciences, professions, and every other area of human scholarship and creativity.

The intellectual interchange essential to a university requires, and is enriched by, the presence and voices of diverse scholars and students. The Catholic identity of the University depends upon, and is nurtured by, the continuing presence of a predominant number of Catholic intellectuals. This ideal has been consistently maintained by the University leadership throughout its history. What the University asks of all its scholars and students, however, is not a particular creedal affiliation, but a respect for the objectives of Notre Dame and a willingness to enter into the conversation that gives it life and character. Therefore, the University insists upon academic freedom that makes open discussion and inquiry possible.



This is the Notre Dame I know and love!

 

[kmoose]

I think in retrospect, the spartan victory was a big one, but at the time they played, were they even ranked? ND already had 1 loss when they met. I don't think anybody, on a national level, ever talked about the matchup being a "big game."

It had the second highest TV rating of all games on TV that day, so there was certainly a lot of interest in the game. 4.8M viewers makes a good case for it being a "big game".

 

[NDgradstudent]

You keep saying this, despite the fact that it is not true. In 2013, BK beat a Michigan State team that ended the season 13-1. And anytime you play the #1 defense in the SEC in a bowl game, it is a big game.

Kelly's record vs teams finishing in the AP top 10 is 2-9; in the top 25 is 6-18. It doesn't matter when it happens; the point is that it rarely happens.

 

[House16]

Kelly's record vs teams finishing in the AP top 10 is 2-9; in the top 25 is 6-18. It doesn't matter when it happens; the point is that it rarely happens.

I believe someone else pointed this out earlier, but this statistic is skewed, because teams will rarely finish in the top 10 if you beat them. The only time that happens is if they go 13-0 outside of their loss to you.

I dug around on info comparing coaches records against teams that finish in the top 25, and the most current info I could find was 2014. Still, it gives us a good snap shot of how many coaches at any point in time actually have winning records against teams that finish in the top 25.

Here's the complete list of coaches that, at their current school, have winning records against teams that finished in the top 25: Fischer (by one game), Meyer, and Saban.

So, the takeaway from Kelly's record against teams that finish in the top 25 is that he isn't a top 3 coach. Whoop dee doo.

 

[irishog77]

It had the second highest TV rating of all games on TV that day, so there was certainly a lot of interest in the game. 4.8M viewers makes a good case for it being a "big game".

So about .01% of the people in the country watched the game. I don't think 1 out of 10,000 people watching a game makes it a big game.

 

[TP81989]

Simply put I think this guy is a top 5 coach in the country who has a team void of the type of defensive players needed to compete like Notre dame and their fans want them to compete. They have nothing on defense. If he's at LSU he wins a title.

A real top 5 coach would do a better job of getting the talent necessary to compete on defense. Hiring BVG whose terrible scheme has set the program back these past three years is also his fault.

 

[BobbyMac]

So about .01% of the people in the country watched the game. I don't think 1 out of 10,000 people watching a game makes it a big game.

FYI, there's a calculator built into your phone.

 

[ickythump1225]

You are not a Notre Dame fan. You are a troll!

A true fan would be happy that the team they loved won. A true fan would root for their team, even if the team was 1-11!


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I can cheer for a team that goes 1-11, hell I was a fan during 3-9. I'm a Vikings fan, so I know losing and misery. Losing isn't the issue, it is a lack of commitment to winning. The admin. won't do what it takes to win and even when they try to help out (upgrading the Gug, field turf, training table, etc.) they are about 30 years behind the curve of middle tier schools, let alone powerhouses. We were $2M a year away from Urban Meyer and instead we got Charlie Weis and then dumped a truckload of money at him when he almost beat USC.

Now BK has been here for 7 years and his message is getting stale and he is overly loyal to coordinators but the admin. rolls with it because they are fine winning 8 games a year because the money will continue to gush in because of ND's brand staying power.

We have sacrificed winning on the field and the Catholic identity of the school (to a large extent) on the altar of academics when ND isn't Harvard. Like another poster said, the reason we shouldn't be a football factory is because we are ND, a Catholic school guided by Catholic principles and informed by Catholic morality, not because it would soil our reputation with the Hampton WASPs. There exists a middle ground between being a completely amoral football factory devoted only to winning (Alabama, Miami, UNC) and what we're doing now. For the better part of 100 years we found that sweet spot.

 

[ThePiombino]

This couldn't be further from the truth. Just because someone disagrees with you and isn't gloating about ND doesn't make him a troll. It's a hard reality to everything he said being the truth. Sure we won, but are you really happy with the way we played and giving up 500+ points to flipping Syracuse? Who said he wasn't a true fan or anything like that? BK hasn't won a big game since 2012 and loses almost all the big games, sure he is a great coach for ND and he's brought this program back from the dead but he hasn't taken it to the level we all thought he would. Sure he's had a couple great years but he got a lot of breaks in those years and other then those two years he's been very average. One great season with one good season with five average seasons doesn't cut it at ND IMO

Pretty sure if ND gave up 500+ pts to anyone, BK would have been legging it home.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Pretty sure if ND gave up 500+ pts to anyone, BK would have been legging it home.

Unless it was Al Davis coaching the TechmoBowl Raiders. Those guys were legit.

 

[ScooterIrish]

Simply put I think this guy is a top 5 coach in the country who has a team void of the type of defensive players needed to compete like Notre dame and their fans want them to compete. They have nothing on defense. If he's at LSU he wins a title.

Top 5 coach? Maybe top 5 non-power 5 coach...

 

[NDgradstudent]

I believe someone else pointed this out earlier, but this statistic is skewed, because teams will rarely finish in the top 10 if you beat them. The only time that happens is if they go 13-0 outside of their loss to you.

I dug around on info comparing coaches records against teams that finish in the top 25, and the most current info I could find was 2014. Still, it gives us a good snap shot of how many coaches at any point in time actually have winning records against teams that finish in the top 25.

Here's the complete list of coaches that, at their current school, have winning records against teams that finished in the top 25: Fischer (by one game), Meyer, and Saban.

So, the takeaway from Kelly's record against teams that finish in the top 25 is that he isn't a top 3 coach. Whoop dee doo.

6-18 is not exactly close to a winning record, is it? How many coaches have better records vs the final AP top 25 than Kelly has had? I would guess it is more than just those 3.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine 8-5 seasons- forever.

P.S. It seems that this is becoming a common strategy among Kelly enablers: set up a false choice between the ultra-elite coaches and Kelly, and then say we must stick with Kelly because we will never have an ultra-elite coach.

 

[irishff1014]

You are not a Notre Dame fan. You are a troll!

A true fan would be happy that the team they loved won. A true fan would root for their team, even if the team was 1-11!


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I will disagree with the coaching staff and bitch but i still get excited to watch every game they play. It's rare i miss a game and i know your comment wasn't directed at me. But i know for fact this team is better than what we are seeing. Hopefully we will see more of the second half defense the rest of the season. I would root for ND and wear my ND gear if the Irish were 0-12 and got beat by 20 every week.

 

[NDdomer2]

If there's an ultra elite coach that wants to be at ND and fits the school, ND will get them don't you think?

So just seems like common strategy among Kelly haters: set up a false hope that all ultra-elite coaches just are sitting around waiting for ND to call and we could hire anyone of them.

Championships Forever

 

[gkIrish]

If there's an ultra elite coach that wants to be at ND and fits the school, ND will get them don't you think?

So just seems like common strategy among Kelly haters: set up a false hope that all ultra-elite coaches just are sitting around waiting for ND to call and we could hire anyone of them.

Championships Forever

It's not about an "ultra-elite" coach. PJ Fleck is not an elite coach right now but certainly has the potential to be one given the resources and prestige of ND.

This is all about the fact that Kelly peaked and is regressing. We have had some completely unacceptable losses the last 3 seasons and rare wins against elite competition. We are never going to be a championship team with him at the helm and we probably won't be a top 10 team anytime soon going forward.

Therefore, it's time to move on. You don't have to get an elite coach. You get a coach with potential and take a risk. I'd rather take a risk on a guy than stick with a guy that we know won't get to where we want to be.

 

[BeauBenken]

It's not about an "ultra-elite" coach. PJ Fleck is not an elite coach right now but certainly has the potential to be one given the resources and prestige of ND.

This is all about the fact that Kelly peaked and is regressing. We have had some completely unacceptable losses the last 3 seasons and rare wins against elite competition. We are never going to be a championship team with him at the helm and we probably won't be a top 10 team anytime soon going forward.

Therefore, it's time to move on. You don't have to get an elite coach. You get a coach with potential and take a risk. I'd rather take a risk on a guy than stick with a guy that we know won't get to where we want to be.

One of our posters, SoIll, commented about how PJ Fleck would not fit at ND. Just FYI.

 

[greyhammer90]

Therefore, it's time to move on. You don't have to get an elite coach. You get a coach with potential and take a risk. I'd rather take a risk on a guy than stick with a guy that we know won't get to where we want to be.

This is really where our opinions differ. I think a much less risky move would be to hire a top flight defensive coordinator and allow Kelly to continue being the overall CEO/Offensive guru. I also think that this move is even more attractive this year because there are likely going to be 3 blueblood college football programs looking for a new coach this year. I t think that Herman is the only guy who is more likely than not to be an immediate upgrade over Kelly. So assuming that we are more attractive than LSU, it's still hard to say we are more attractive than Texas or USC.

You want to compete for championships? The quickest, least risky (and cheapest if we consider a Kelly buy-out) way to do that is to pay Dave Aranda 2.5 mil. plus to be our DC.

 

[NDdomer2]

It's not about an "ultra-elite" coach. PJ Fleck is not an elite coach right now but certainly has the potential to be one given the resources and prestige of ND.

This is all about the fact that Kelly peaked and is regressing. We have had some completely unacceptable losses the last 3 seasons and rare wins against elite competition. We are never going to be a championship team with him at the helm and we probably won't be a top 10 team anytime soon going forward.

Therefore, it's time to move on. You don't have to get an elite coach. You get a coach with potential and take a risk. I'd rather take a risk on a guy than stick with a guy that we know won't get to where we want to be.

Depends what part of the team you are talking about. Offense certainly doesnt look to be regressing....I'd say it's maybe the most dangerous it's ever been in fact.

So scrap the whole damn thing because 1 thing needs fixed (defense)?

 

[gkIrish]

This is really where our opinions differ. I think a much less risky move would be to hire a top flight defensive coordinator and allow Kelly to continue being the overall CEO/Offensive guru. I also think that this move is even more attractive this year because there are likely going to be 3 blueblood college football programs looking for a new coach this year. I t think that Herman is the only guy who is more likely than not to be an immediate upgrade over Kelly. So assuming that we are more attractive than LSU, it's still hard to say we are more attractive than Texas or USC.

You want to compete for championships? The quickest, least risky (and cheapest if we consider a Kelly buy-out) way to do that is to pay Dave Aranda 2.5 mil. plus to be our DC.

I think Dave Aranda would make us a much better team and probably get us to the point where we don't lose to the Dukes of the world anymore but I honestly don't think BK has what it takes to win it all. I think he is outcoached more often than not, and I think he is a very mediocre in-game coach. He still doesn't understand basic decision making (i.e. you don't punt on 4th and short from plus territory with a bad defense or when to go for two or not). His players also do not seem to love him. When was the last time you saw a player or former player come out and talk about how great Brian Kelly is? I mean seriously...I'm sure it has happened but I honestly can't recall some former player talking about what a great person/coach BK was.

One of our posters, SoIll, commented about how PJ Fleck would not fit at ND. Just FYI.

I was just using PJ Fleck as an example. But what did SoIll say? Or where can I find his post.