Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[ickythump1225]

The whole idea of replacing BK to 'get over the hump' comes down to two simple risks, and you have to decide which is more easily managed:

1. Fire BK, and hope the next guy is a sure-thing as a recruiter, developer, and CEO [or playcaller if he's a true offensive/defensive specialist]. And you have to account for the fact that you're not getting Urban, Saban or Dabo...

2. Keep BK, and hope the '20 class pans out, and that the '21 class both stays together and pans out, and that OL and DL depth are well-maintained... and keep Clark Lea.


Both courses of action have many moving parts, flaws, and unanswerable questions, but one has wayyyyyy more risk and unknowns attached, IMO.

I think there is way less risk and more reliable data that says keeping BK and staying on the current trajectory is a really strong way at approaching the national title chase. whereas hiring a new guy is totally unpredictable.

Completely reasonable take on the subject. I remain pretty convinced of the idea that BK is NOT a NC caliber coach and will not get us over the hump. I don't want BK fired or let go with no clear plan in place because things can most definitely get worse.

I feel like the last 3 years are kind of our ceiling from BK and while there are certainly far worse fates (ND football post Lou Holtz thru the Charlie Weis years) the bloom is kind of off the rose.

 

[ickythump1225]

I wasn't referring to anyone specific actually. If Lea is the right guy for the job when the time comes, then that would be great. I'm more looking at Oklahoma and Ohio State. It feels like promotions mean that you aren't scrapping the regime and starting over, but building on something that is working. I'd like to think that what BK is doing is working and there wouldn't be a reason to burn it down and start over. Evolution instead of revolution.

I can agree with this. ND is not in a "need a revolution" stage so it would make sense to try and find someone to build on top of the foundation that has been laid.

 

[gkIrish]

True, but Georgia also was a lot more consistent and saw a lot more success during the 15 year period before Richt's tenure began. Kelly had a much deeper hole to dig out of.

Let's run with the analogy though. If there's a candidate out there with Smart's resume that's willing and able to step in after Kelly leaves, I'm all for it. But who that guy might be for ND isn't readily apparent (and I'm 99% certain it's not Fleck). So where does that leave this interminable conversation?

Are you suggesting that being Alabama's defensive coordinator equated to Smart being a "sure thing" as a head coach at a major program? There was a lot of risk in that move because there are countless examples of terrific coordinators who are terrible head coaches.

 

[NDdomer2]

lol this thread. wash rinse repeat

 

[NDRock]

This is the atitude that is completely wrong. In 9 years of Kelly we still can't compete for a National Championship. That is the stated and only goal of this football team. The grass isn't always greener, but sometimes it is better. Just have to take the chance. We know what Kelly is doing for us. 10 wins seems to be everyones goal here and be happy with it. I'd rather average 10 wins in the vein of 8-4 9-3 10-2 11-1 12-0 and be in the playoffs 2 out of 5 years and atleast be competitive and not get our doors blown off. Kelly is not that guy.

Yeah, think every ND fan would take this considering it would be a level that Notre Dame has rarely achieved in its entire history. Finishing top 4, 40% of the time (2/5 years) is something Ara (30%) and Holtz (27%) couldn't do. After this year, Kelly is at 20% So, essentially we're looking for Frank Leahy. Seems reasonable.

 

[Irish#1]

BK has gotten ND to having a 10 win year as a floor recently which is EXACTLY what most fans have been hoping for , for years since Holtz....HOWEVER as much as he has made upgrades he needs to ELEVATE his game in preparation for the bigger games...i think we can all AGREE on this.....so BK still has some work to go, but ultimately he IS THE GUY for the job

This......Going back to 2012 BK has recognized parts/weaknesses/programs that needed to be changed and has been making them. It's like buying that vintage car. He started working on it, but his wife (we fans in this case) were not happy about the pace of the progress, until 2016 when it was made very clear you need to finish this or one day you're coming home to find the car is gone. BK got the message and now he's at the point with the car that he's done with the major rebuild and the last three years he's been fine tuning it.

 

[Rack Em]

There is certainly something to "revisit". Kelly is very much an imperfect coach.

He's corrected many of his flaws including his recruiting, roster management, defending the home field, his delegation to assistants, demeanor, etc. However he still has glaring flaws in his management and preparation for road games against ranked teams at night. Yes, we're not fixated on old issues anymore. Yes this is a good problem to have because that means we're dissecting a problem most schools would kill to have. But as other issues were fixed and Notre Dame has consistently stayed above #15 the last 3 years, his road game management shifts to the spotlight. It's not like he came into ND and lit the world on fire against ranked teams at night. This has always been an issue for him but the program is now in a state where it has to be addressed and fixed for ND to be a title contender.

Honestly, if you're content with the state of the program maybe go be a Wisconsin fan because they consistently push out 9-10 win seasons without a hope of getting into the CFP or Championship. As fans we can recognize that ND is better than what it was since Holtz, but still want the University to push into the next level. That, to me, is worth revisiting whether its Brian Kelly, Nick Saban, PJ Fleck, or ACamp's wife coaching the team.

 

[stlnd01]

Ok. But how exactly does one “fix” playing “ranked teams on the road at night.”

Most things, really, are the same at home or away, and whatever time the game gets played. Obvs you need to prepare for a higher level of athleticism and experience against ranked teams, that’s why they’re ranked. And you can pipe in crowd noise and run “chaos” drills, as they do.

But beating ranked teams on the road at night is literally the hardest thing to do in college football. It’s not like PJ Fleck has some secret recipe for that, or even Saban or Swinney. The only recipe is pretty clear: “having better players.”

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Ok. But how exactly does one “fix” playing “ranked teams on the road at night.”

Most things, really, are the same at home or away, and whatever time the game gets played. Obvs you need to prepare for a higher level of athleticism and experience against ranked teams, that’s why they’re ranked. And you can pipe in crowd noise and run “chaos” drills, as they do.

But beating ranked teams on the road at night is literally the hardest thing to do in college football. It’s not like PJ Fleck has some secret recipe for that, or even Saban or Swinney. The only recipe is pretty clear: “having better players.”

I think the answer is that Notre Dame has to be in a position where they can spend extra prep time on big games to the detriment of the others. Which requires them to win the other games relying more on sheer talent with their base schemes. The program has moved to the stage where they can blow out middling squads which is a step in this direction, I think.

 

[stlnd01]

I think the answer is that Notre Dame has to be in a position where they can spend extra prep time on big games to the detriment of the others. Which requires them to win the other games relying more on sheer talent with their base schemes. The program has moved to the stage where they can blow out middling squads which is a step in this direction, I think.

Fair. Kind of how most SEC teams play an FCS patsy the week before their big year-end rivalry game. Though this year we had New Mexico the week before Georgia, and a bye leading into Michigan. That should have given sufficient prep time. Yet here we are.

 

[phork]

First, why is it ND's problem that USC and Stanford are down this year? Every season, there are teams on the schedule that are better or worse than projected. That can't be held against BK. Most CFB coaches wouldn't want our schedule.

To the second bolded point.....We are competing for a NC. We did it in 2012 and last year. We may not like the results, but we were there. One could also argue that being a consistent 10-11 game winner every year puts you in a better position to win a NC than a team that throws an 8-4 and 9-3 record into the mix.

If you think ND is competing for Natty's, I have news for you. We aren't. Being there is fine. Looking like a PopWarner team in every big game is not.

A young, relatively inexperienced coach wouldnt make it at ND. Too much pressure from too many directions. Sure, you would get shiny and new but much like the Minn coach, it would break after testing. That Minn coach played an EXTREMELY weak schedule and came in WAAAAY under the radar vs PSU. It clearly showed PSU didnt prepare or take them seriously. When they played the next team with a pulse, they got rolled. That is what happens when you go from being a shadow to being in the light when you are a paper tiger.

Folks, if you are rolling behind ND because you are hawking that NC, then you are going to be really, really disappointed for a very long time. The probability of ND winning a NC is about as low as seeing a white crow. ND isnt built to win NCs. Not because ND cant win games or doesnt have a good coach. ND isnt built to win NCs because of the academic requirements, the craptastic weather and women and basically being a debbie downer for any kid that isnt academic minded. Which means most athletes today. Sad but true. Sorry.

Doesnt mean you cant have a good time being a ND fan. Heck, three years of 10 win seasons is huge. Very few teams do that. And the ones that do, they play cupcake schedules. They arent playing the worldbeaters or if they are, it is one worldbeater and a D2 team plus a week off before they play that worldbeater.

So if a NC is your measuring stick, probably need to support a new team that doesnt have ND mission statement. If you want to cheer for a solid team supported by a university with morals and character, then ND is your team.

#dropthemike

I believe there is a coach out there that can win at ND. I don't know who. But BK is not that guy.

As for Fleck, he has been at Minny for 2 years... 2 years and he's turned in Minny's best season in probably forever. Kelly's been here for 9. Been to a Natty & Playoff. Eviscerated in both.

We are enjoying these 10 win seasons because the usual collection of tough guys on our schedule are not so tough recently. Everyone saw our 2019 schedule and was petrified. Then every team except Georgia & Michigan sucked.

A NC is not my measuring stick. Being able to compete for one is. ND isn't even close to just being competitive, let alone winning.

Yes but this is a long cherished trope to trot out against those who are not satisfied with getting blown out by Michigan and an invite to the Camping World Bowl fresh off of getting jail sexed by an elite program in the CFP last year. I don't expect to win a title every year or even make the CFP every year, but I mean is it so much to ask that we not be made to look like a JV program when do go? It's damn near criminal how unprepared BK has his teams for big bowl games.

This x100000

Nice post.

I'm more interested in managing the downside risk, being consistent, and making a real push every few years for a Natty. I think BK can do that. I'd rather that than risk dumpster seasons.

Guys, if we made the CFP with the 2018 roster just imagine what can be possible with the 2020 and 2021 classes. 2016 SUCKED, but we've been trending up ever since. So long as forward is the movement I think BK has earned the benefit of the doubt. If/when he stagnates or regresses (again), then it's worth a serious look elsewhere. Until then, enjoy the upward trajectory.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Upward? Lol. We are at the ceiling, there is no more up.

Completely reasonable take on the subject. I remain pretty convinced of the idea that BK is NOT a NC caliber coach and will not get us over the hump. I don't want BK fired or let go with no clear plan in place because things can most definitely get worse.

I feel like the last 3 years are kind of our ceiling from BK and while there are certainly far worse fates (ND football post Lou Holtz thru the Charlie Weis years) the bloom is kind of off the rose.

Agree with all of this.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I think if he continues to reach for new assistants when needing to hire any, things could work out within a few years.

I would like to see Jeff Quinn gone. He's old BK baggage. Apart from that, I have liked the recent hires he's made for his staff. Retaining Clark Lea was a huge deal as it turns out. If he had left with Elko, who knows what we'd be looking at right now.

Keep reauditing where you need to.

Chris Tyree, Jurvovic, Pyne, Buechner, Kevin Austin, Johnson, Kmet, Mayer...all gonna struggle if this talented crew of O line doesn't improve big time. My hope is Chip gets a new job, Quinn goes to OC, and ND gets a better O line coach. Let's keep in mind this guy hasn't coached O line since 2009.

 

[NDRock]

We are enjoying these 10 win seasons because the usual collection of tough guys on our schedule are not so tough recently. Everyone saw our 2019 schedule and was petrified. Then every team except Georgia & Michigan sucked.

Upward This is the ceiling, there is no more up.

This is such BS. If we had beaten Michigan and gotten crushed by USC, those teams would have simply flipped in the rankings and you would have complained that the only two good teams were Georgia and USC. You can't say every team sucked when we beat 3 top 25 teams.

 

[phork]

This is such BS. If we had beaten Michigan and gotten crushed by USC, those teams would have simply flipped in the rankings and you would have complained that the only two good teams were Georgia and USC. You can't say every team sucked when we beat 3 top 25 teams.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Can't say that, what happened happened. Michigan isn't a good team and to be beat like that by that team like that is BS.

 

[NDRock]

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Can't say that, what happened happened. Michigan isn't a good team and to be beat like that by that team like that is BS.

So, you stand by your assertion that every team we beat this year "sucked"?

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

If you think ND is competing for Natty's, I have news for you. We aren't. Being there is fine. Looking like a PopWarner team in every big game is not.



I believe there is a coach out there that can win at ND. I don't know who. But BK is not that guy.

As for Fleck, he has been at Minny for 2 years... 2 years and he's turned in Minny's best season in probably forever. Kelly's been here for 9. Been to a Natty & Playoff. Eviscerated in both.

We are enjoying these 10 win seasons because the usual collection of tough guys on our schedule are not so tough recently. Everyone saw our 2019 schedule and was petrified. Then every team except Georgia & Michigan sucked.

A NC is not my measuring stick. Being able to compete for one is. ND isn't even close to just being competitive, let alone winning.



This x100000





Upward? Lol. We are at the ceiling, there is no more up.



Agree with all of this.

You may find what you seek as a fan of Ohio St, Alabama, or Clemson.

 

[IrishFaninTX]

The whole idea of replacing BK to 'get over the hump' comes down to two simple risks, and you have to decide which is more easily managed:

1. Fire BK, and hope the next guy is a sure-thing as a recruiter, developer, and CEO [or playcaller if he's a true offensive/defensive specialist]. And you have to account for the fact that you're not getting Urban, Saban or Dabo...

2. Keep BK, and hope the '20 class pans out, and that the '21 class both stays together and pans out, and that OL and DL depth are well-maintained... and keep Clark Lea.


Both courses of action have many moving parts, flaws, and unanswerable questions, but one has wayyyyyy more risk and unknowns attached, IMO.

I think there is way less risk and more reliable data that says keeping BK and staying on the current trajectory is a really strong way of approaching the national title chase. whereas hiring a new guy is totally unpredictable.

Also, firing BK would likely result in losing some of the 2021 class and a lot of players may transfer. I don't think many think about the consequences so much as wanting immediate gratification.

 

[ulukinatme]

You may find what you seek as a fan of Ohio St, Alabama, or Clemson.

This. Like it or not, in the current landscape of college football it's unlikely Notre Dame wins a national championship while there are programs like Alabama and Clemson at the top of the pile. Maybe when Saban and/or Dabo or gone things will be different, but Notre Dame doesn't do themselves any favors when it comes to competing with the football factories. Just the fact we made it to the playoff and NCG is rather impressive, especially given the short list of teams that have done such in the last 7 years. When programs like Ohio State suspend a Joey Bosa one game for weed, while Notre Dame is sitting guys a full season, it's rather hard to compete with standards like those. Couple that with the academic requirements and other factors and you're not exactly creating a recipe that lends itself to championships. We build champions off the field.

 

[Sea Turtle]

This. Like it or not, in the current landscape of college football it's unlikely Notre Dame wins a national championship while there are programs like Alabama and Clemson at the top of the pile. Maybe when Saban and/or Dabo or gone things will be different, but Notre Dame doesn't do themselves any favors when it comes to competing with the football factories. Just the fact we made it to the playoff and NCG is rather impressive, especially given the short list of teams that have done such in the last 7 years. When programs like Ohio State suspend a Joey Bosa one game for weed, while Notre Dame is sitting guys a full season, it's rather hard to compete with standards like those. Couple that with the academic requirements and other factors and you're not exactly creating a recipe that lends itself to championships. We build champions off the field.

ND has to prove how hard ass they are by suspending players for a year for smoking weed and turning themselves in for the stupid frozen 5 thing. But that doesn't mean the rest of the country should follow suit.

I don't blame Ohio State for not being stupid. ND creates their own disadvantages.

 

[ickythump1225]

This is such BS. If we had beaten Michigan and gotten crushed by USC, those teams would have simply flipped in the rankings and you would have complained that the only two good teams were Georgia and USC. You can't say every team sucked when we beat 3 top 25 teams.

If

 

[ARALOU]

This is a depressing thread. I think I will quit looking at it. If Georgia gets thumped by LSU, is Georgia just mediocre with no chance to ever get to the playoffs? Is Oklahoma wannabes? Baylor, even mighty Bama, Utah? They all got embarrassed or beat handily in the past. I seem to recall a LSU team or two that got beat by the "lowly Irish" in recent memory. Ole Miss ran Orgeron out of town and promptly became a dumpster fire, USC also. Now look at the position he is in. FSU, Miami, Tennessee, Texas, all have been scraping the bottom of the barrel to find a NC title coach. Where is that coach for those programs? Right now they would probably be happy with Kelly. They struggle to get bowl eligible or win 10 games. Richt is retired and won 10 games a season for a decade or more. NC title teams are rare, there is only one per season now. I think I liked it better when you had an argument for a couple teams without the playoff system. Anyone can get blown out by a team that wouldn't normally dominate on a given game. Its a game played by young adults. Some teams get on a roll. Some don't.

 

[NDRock]

If

If, what? The whole post was about phork saying the only two teams that didn't suck on our schedule were Georgia and Michigan. Do you agree with that? Even the three top 25 teams we beat? I'm sure you do since the only big games for guys like you are the ones Kelly loses. Guy has amazingly bad luck. Goes 12-0 last year, unfortunately the only big game was the Clemson game.

 

[Wild Bill]

If, what? The whole post was about phork saying the only two teams that didn't suck on our schedule were Georgia and Michigan. Do you agree with that? Even the three top 25 teams we beat? I'm sure you do since the only big games for guys like you are the ones Kelly loses. Guy has amazingly bad luck. Goes 12-0 last year, unfortunately the only big game was the Clemson game.

I wouldn't go that far but we lost the two games we were dogs and won every game we were favored. You gotta win that Michigan game. We weren't even competitive.

 

[Dizzyphil]

I wouldn't go that far but we lost the two games we were dogs and won every game we were favored. You gotta win that Michigan game. We weren't even competitive.

It was raining...........

 

[NorthDakota]

I wouldn't go that far but we lost the two games we were dogs and won every game we were favored. You gotta win that Michigan game. We weren't even competitive.

Yes, gotta win the Michigan game. That game is generally a pretty good test of if you have a good team or not. If you lose to Michigan, you probably aren't anything to write home about, if you beat them, generally an affirmative sign that you are probably a good football team.

 

[stlnd01]

This is a depressing thread. I think I will quit looking at it. If Georgia gets thumped by LSU, is Georgia just mediocre with no chance to ever get to the playoffs? Is Oklahoma wannabes? Baylor, even mighty Bama, Utah? They all got embarrassed or beat handily in the past. I seem to recall a LSU team or two that got beat by the "lowly Irish" in recent memory. Ole Miss ran Orgeron out of town and promptly became a dumpster fire, USC also. Now look at the position he is in. FSU, Miami, Tennessee, Texas, all have been scraping the bottom of the barrel to find a NC title coach. Where is that coach for those programs? Right now they would probably be happy with Kelly. They struggle to get bowl eligible or win 10 games. Richt is retired and won 10 games a season for a decade or more. NC title teams are rare, there is only one per season now. I think I liked it better when you had an argument for a couple teams without the playoff system. Anyone can get blown out by a team that wouldn't normally dominate on a given game. Its a game played by young adults. Some teams get on a roll. Some don't.

This. Basically are only three teams in college football that don't "suck."

 

[ickythump1225]

If, what? The whole post was about phork saying the only two teams that didn't suck on our schedule were Georgia and Michigan. Do you agree with that? Even the three top 25 teams we beat? I'm sure you do since the only big games for guys like you are the ones Kelly loses. Guy has amazingly bad luck. Goes 12-0 last year, unfortunately the only big game was the Clemson game.

So going against Clemson was "bad luck?" Do you think we're going to be able to play KSU and Boston College in the playoffs?

 

[Wingman Ray]

Yes, gotta win the Michigan game. That game is generally a pretty good test of if you have a good team or not. If you lose to Michigan, you probably aren't anything to write home about, if you beat them, generally an affirmative sign that you are probably a good football team.

This.

ND wasnt great or very good at all. Good may be a stretch depending on your definition. Above average absolutely.

Right now a Great team is rolling a Good team that beat ND pretty much throughout despite what the media and ND fans want to believe.

 

[NorthDakota]

This.

ND wasnt great or very good at all. Good may be a stretch depending on your definition. Above average absolutely.

Right now a Great team is rolling a Good team that beat ND pretty much throughout despite what the media and ND fans want to believe.

I won't judge UGA too hard for this, they have a pretty good track record lately of being a high level team.

College football games can get away from you sometimes. Notre Dame fans know that well haha

 

[ickythump1225]

I won't judge UGA too hard for this, they have a pretty good track record lately of being a high level team.

College football games can get away from you sometimes. Notre Dame fans know that well haha

I will hate on UGA for this (because I hate that program) they feasted on 2nd and 3rd string QBs all year and got by with mediocre offense with the most overrated QB in the nation.

I said they weren't an elite team all year and now I feel vindicated.