Avengers: Endgame (SPOILERS)

[connor_in]

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[connor_in]

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[Domina Nostra]

As a casual viewer of these movies, it felt a little heavy handed.

I love Marvel movies, and loved Infinity Wars, but I gave this one an A- for initial watchability, but a B on further reflection. I really did think the rules they set up for time travel were a little too convenient and not very fun or satisfying. If there are other timelines everytime you change something, sucks for them.

I liked Black Widow's sacrifice, and thought it made MUCH more sense that you didn't have to murder someone to get the soul stone.

I loved vigilante Hawkeye.

I thought that Thor's story line made sense on paper, but they got carried away with the execution and ended up being ham-fisted. The depression of a 1,000 year old warrior of having failed his ultimate mission would have been darker than ice cream, beer, and Fortnight. Entertaining, but too silly.

I loved Captain America taking the hammer. He clearly moved it in that previous movie, but was too humble to show it. He was clearly worthy, if not strong enough to stop Thanos.

I like Capt. Marvel's addition to the team, but do think its dumb that she can take out Thanos ship in seconds without winding herself. I think she's also annoyingly cocky, but her character is a fighter pilot.

I thought giving the shield to someone with normal man strength doesn't make a ton of sense; maybe he's get an Ironman-esque suit.

I wish Hulk had a bigger part in the end fight.

I like the girl heroes, with the exception of Iron Gwyneth Paltrow, but thought the girl-power moment in the middle of a raging battle was dumb. How did they all know? Did they tell men who came to help to go away? Dumb.

Ironman's sacrifice was great, considering he was the force behind all Marvel's current success.

 

[ulukinatme]

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[ulukinatme]

I agree with most of what you said, save for the below:

I love Marvel movies, and loved Infinity Wars, but I gave this one an A- for initial watchability, but a B on further reflection. I really did think the rules they set up for time travel were a little too convenient and not very fun or satisfying. If there are other timelines everytime you change something, sucks for them.

As someone that is a huge Back to the Future fan, and time travel plots in general, I get that some people weren't going to appreciate Endgame's version. Keep in mind that we are talking about a fictitious concept though, and just because other movies have established rules doesn't mean Avengers need to adhere to them. That said, I did have a beef with the time travel stuff, but it was only related to how quickly they were able to figure out the principle and perfect it. I mentioned that before, but I also acknowledge that the process was likely sped up to shorten an already lengthy movie.

I liked Black Widow's sacrifice, and thought it made MUCH more sense that you didn't have to murder someone to get the soul stone.

It was never about murder, it was giving up what you love most. For Thanos that just happened to be Gamora.

I thought that Thor's story line made sense on paper, but they got carried away with the execution and ended up being ham-fisted. The depression of a 1,000 year old warrior of having failed his ultimate mission would have been darker than ice cream, beer, and Fortnight. Entertaining, but too silly.

Endgame Thor was a treasure, you back off! I think Thor is my favorite Avenger after Iron Man. His speech and ignorance of Earth's culture make for some good comedy.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I agree with most of what you said, save for the below:


As someone that is a huge Back to the Future fan, and time travel plots in general, I get that some people weren't going to appreciate Endgame's version. Keep in mind that we are talking about a fictitious concept though, and just because other movies have established rules doesn't mean Avengers need to adhere to them. That said, I did have a beef with the time travel stuff, but it was only related to how quickly they were able to figure out the principle and perfect it. I mentioned that before, but I also acknowledge that the process was likely sped up to shorten an already lengthy movie.


It was never about murder, it was giving up what you love most. For Thanos that just happened to be Gamora.



Endgame Thor was a treasure, you back off! I think Thor is my favorite Avenger after Iron Man. His speech and ignorance of Earth's culture make for some good comedy.

Regarding BTTF, agreed they obviously don't have to use another movie's rules, especially a comedy's. BTTF's rules were silly, but entertaining. The Avenger's rules were basically "there are no rules" masked in snarky "we're scientists, and you are dumb." But they are also unsatisfying, since they leave tons of other realities out there. IMO, multiverses are the least interesting, "interesting" idea of all time.

In Infinity War, what we were told that the stone demanded a sacrifice, you must lose someone you love. The stone came at a cost. It was a soul for a soul. We left that movie with the impression that the universe was willing to let a fanatical Father murder his child to get the stone, which was a pretty crazy view of love. It did not demand what or who you loved the most--or else Black Widow's sacrifice would not have worked for Clint. Clint loved his wife and kids more.

My problem was I thought the stone demanded a sacrifice. Clint never sacrificed BW. He tried as hard as he could to not let her die. That was good enough, which was much less creepy.

Thor is my fave, but his role was too silly for me, and he also gave up his crown to someone who "was always a leader" even though she spent centuries as a mercenary gladiator. All of it seemed a little contrived to me.

But the end with Star Lord looked very promising, although the Gamora stuff will be painful to watch going forward.

 

[ulukinatme]

In Infinity War, what we were told that the stone demanded a sacrifice, you must lose someone you love. The stone came at a cost. It was a soul for a soul. We left that movie with the impression that the universe was willing to let a fanatical Father murder his child to get the stone, which was a pretty crazy view of love. It did not demand what or who you loved the most--or else Black Widow's sacrifice would not have worked for Clint. Clint loved his wife and kids more.

My problem was I thought the stone demanded a sacrifice. Clint never sacrificed BW. He tried as hard as he could to not let her die. That was good enough, which was much less creepy.

My take away is that, despite what Gamora thought, Thanos did really love her as a daughter. His mind is twisted, but she was what he loved. His resolve to fulfill his "destiny" allowed him to give her up. That's why when he went through that flash back and she asked him as a child "What did you have to give up?" he replied "Everything."

As far as Clint and Black Widow, I think it's obvious there was a love there. It may have been more platonic than anything, but they have a long history going back to "Budapest" or whatever that crap was they always brought up. In any case, they had a close relationship. If you consider that Clint had already lost his family, Black Widow would be the thing he loved most.

 

[connor_in]

As far as time travel goes, don't forget they had an expert with them...

 

[connor_in]

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I'm not crying, you're crying

 

[Domina Nostra]

My take away is that, despite what Gamora thought, Thanos did really love her as a daughter. His mind is twisted, but she was what he loved. His resolve to fulfill his "destiny" allowed him to give her up. That's why when he went through that flash back and she asked him as a child "What did you have to give up?" he replied "Everything."

As far as Clint and Black Widow, I think it's obvious there was a love there. It may have been more platonic than anything, but they have a long history going back to "Budapest" or whatever that crap was they always brought up. In any case, they had a close relationship. If you consider that Clint had already lost his family, Black Widow would be the thing he loved most.

Yeah, i thought it was creepy that the soul stone was thinking, "he may want to kill half the universe, but that doesn't mean that he isn't capable of lovin' that girl!"

My point with Clint was that it didn't have to be your most beloved and it didn't even have to be fully willed. He did not consent to her dying.

 

[connor_in]

As nuke said this one is not for the casual viewer. Marvel has tried to keep a little bit of an opening for new viewers in most of their movies, but this being the end of the Infinity saga you needed to be clued in as they needed to tie up loose ends, set characters up for exits, and resolve the story. They included numerous fan service bits for those who hung out for the whole run why they were at it and set some wrinkles for other characters stories going forward.

I am very curious about how they move forward with Falcon as Cap being as he has no super soldier serum and thus no extra strength and reflexes and observation/reactions.

Spider-man Far From Home is revealing the multiverse so there are myriad stories that can come from that.

Thor has been on a character arc that has been decimating. He literally has lost almost everything. I wouldn't mind if he hung with the GotG for their 3rd movie and continue to heal...maybe find Beta Ray Bill!

I know that Black Widow in her own movie is said to be at least partly in the past (origin story), but will be curious if/how they bring her back. Finally get to experience Budapest?

I will miss Stan Lee, but have faith that Kevin Feige is his Marvel spiritual son and cannot wait for the future of the MCU though I have no doubt they will never hit this height again.

 

[Luckylucci]

Also not a big fan of what they are doing with Thor, almost as if he is a comic relief now.
End battle I thought could have been longer for how long the movie itself was.

Still not sold on Captain Marvel.

Anyone else think the kid from Iron Man 3 will take up the role of the new Iron Man?

Just got to the theatre to see it on Friday. Absolutely hated this. I'm probably a little bias as Thor was my favorite comic book hero growing up but that seemed really stupid. One of the most powerful Marvel heroes is now relegated to an extremely overweight/out of shape drunk with jokes. Stupid.

 

[ulukinatme]

Just got to the theatre to see it on Friday. Absolutely hated this. I'm probably a little bias as Thor was my favorite comic book hero growing up but that seemed really stupid. One of the most powerful Marvel heroes is now relegated to an extremely overweight/out of shape drunk with jokes. Stupid.

Among the original Avengers, Thor has always been the one more likely to provide the comic relief though. He's powerful, but he's not completely familiar with Earth customs and ignorance is part of his charm. He has one of the most compelling character arcs by the end though, probably the 2nd best arc in the whole movie beyond Tony's own redemption and selflessness. Thor was completely broken after failing to stop Thanos. He lost his home, his family, even his hammer. It looked like he had lost all hope, if not for a chance encounter with his mother in the past. He snaps out of his funk and they take the fight to Thanos. By the end of the movie he's back to his old self again.

In the end, I think you need to consider they actually made his character more likeable than some fan favorites like Cap imo. Plus...they could have gone far worse with Thor if they stayed true to the comic books. Remember when Thor became a woman?

 

[GATTACA!]

Among the original Avengers, Thor has always been the one more likely to provide the comic relief though. He's powerful, but he's not completely familiar with Earth customs and ignorance is part of his charm. He has one of the most compelling character arcs by the end though, probably the 2nd best arc in the whole movie beyond Tony's own redemption and selflessness. Thor was completely broken after failing to stop Thanos. He lost his home, his family, even his hammer. It looked like he had lost all hope, if not for a chance encounter with his mother in the past. He snaps out of his funk and they take the fight to Thanos. By the end of the movie he's back to his old self again.

In the end, I think you need to consider they actually made his character more likeable than some fan favorites like Cap imo. Plus...they could have gone far worse with Thor if they stayed true to the comic books. Remember when Thor became a woman?

I'm shocked anyone gave a shit about Thor before they changed things up. He was a boring nothing character, hell even Hemsworth didn't like him.

I would have been cool with never seeing another Thor standalone movie before Ragnarok, now I can't wait for Asgardians of the Galaxy.

 

[ulukinatme]

I...uhh...just wanted to come back and say that I have no problem with Thor being a woman if he/she chooses to make that transition. Please don't dox me.

 

[Irishnuke]

Well you can have new, funny Thor, or old, boring Shakespearean Thor with dyed blonde eyebrows. Plus Chris Hemsworth is really funny but you would never would have known it based on his first two films.

 

[greyhammer90]

So people with kids... how did they like it? I thought it was alright, but I thought about how I would feel if I was an 8 year old after the first hour and realized I'd be bored/depressed out of my mind.

 

[GATTACA!]

So people with kids... how did they like it? I thought it was alright, but I thought about how I would feel if I was an 8 year old after the first hour and realized I'd be bored/depressed out of my mind.

It's PG-13 so it's not like toddlers are going to watch it. I don't think teenagers would be bored IMO.

 

[Son of Kenmare]

Yeah, i thought it was creepy that the soul stone was thinking, "he may want to kill half the universe, but that doesn't mean that he isn't capable of lovin' that girl!"

My point with Clint was that it didn't have to be your most beloved and it didn't even have to be fully willed. He did not consent to her dying.

What was really creepy is “Did Captain make out with his daughter in Civil War?” Remember, he kissed Sharon Carter in that movie.

 

[greyhammer90]

It's PG-13 so it's not like toddlers are going to watch it. I don't think teenagers would be bored IMO.

I didn't ask about toddlers? A PG13 rating isn't going to keep out the millions of eight to ten year olds who pretend to be these characters everyday on the playground because these movies are their generations Star Wars. I was just struck in the theater that 9 year old grey would've been hyped as hell going in, and then would have watched an hour of Captain America going to group therapy and teaching a gay man to trust again. I was just curious how that played for people with kids in that age range, because I thought it was pretty bloated as an adult.

 

[connor_in]

What was really creepy is “Did Captain make out with his daughter in Civil War?” Remember, he kissed Sharon Carter in that movie.

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Sharon_Carter

"Agent Sharon Carter is the great niece of legendary S.H.I.E.L.D. founder Peggy Carter."

Not Peggy's daughter

 

[zelezo vlk]

Also, that's officially a different timeline

 

[ulukinatme]

So people with kids... how did they like it? I thought it was alright, but I thought about how I would feel if I was an 8 year old after the first hour and realized I'd be bored/depressed out of my mind.

I didn't ask about toddlers? A PG13 rating isn't going to keep out the millions of eight to ten year olds who pretend to be these characters everyday on the playground because these movies are their generations Star Wars. I was just struck in the theater that 9 year old grey would've been hyped as hell going in, and then would have watched an hour of Captain America going to group therapy and teaching a gay man to trust again. I was just curious how that played for people with kids in that age range, because I thought it was pretty bloated as an adult.

I'll be taking my daughter and my youngest I think, I'll let you know. My youngest is all about the Avengers and I think he'll be fine. He hasn't had a problem with the previous movies, even though this one is a bit longer. I won't be taking my middle son though, but that's only because he's Autistic and anything longer than about 90 minutes usually becomes an issue for him. If it's just me with the kids I can't very well leave the other ones in the theater if I need to make an exit with him.

 

[ACamp1900]

It's PG-13 so it's not like toddlers are going to watch it. I don't think teenagers would be bored IMO.

I always feel odd with these movies because some are simply not appropriate for younger viewers but the theaters are always filled with kids of all ages... hell I remember when I was a video store clerk... kids barely out of diapers were having their parents get the South Park movie for them... "It's a cartoon.."

 

[Whiskeyjack]

 

[GATTACA!]

Cap one is better than a 6.9. Also the Incredible Hulk shouldn't count.

 

[ulukinatme]

Some of IMDB's ratings seem to be out of whack when you consider their DC counterparts. For instance, Watchmen garnered a 7.6 rating on IMDB, which is really rather high and comparable to Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Captain America: Civil War, and Thor Ragnarok on paper....but the Metascore for it on Metacritic gave it a 56/100 which is more in line with the mixed reviews that Watchmen got. Similarly Man of Steel got a 7.1 on IMDB which puts it up there with Iron Man 2, Ant Man and Wasp, and near Black Panther (lolwut?), but the Metascore for Man of Steel was just 55 which was also in line with it's mixed reviews and it also matched it's 56% Rotten Tomatoes score. Again, a 6.6 on IMDB for Batman vs. Superman coupled with a 44 Metascore, and an 8.2 on IMDB for Batman Begins (Putting it above the first Avengers movie and near Avengers Infinity War) with a 70 Metascore. In fact, these variations in numbers can be found with a number of other DC titles that audiences were lukewarm towards.

I took a look at some the Marvel comparisons between IMDB, Metacritic, and Rotten Tomatoes. Generally they all seem to be closer in score. My take away? DC fans are propping up DC comic movies on IMDB bigly, but it doesn't jive with overall reviews. Why this is, I do not know....strange find either way. Makes me wonder if some Marvel numbers weren't negatively influenced too.

 

[IrishLion]

Similarly Man of Steel got a 7.1 on IMDB which puts it up there with Iron Man 2, Ant Man and Wasp, and near Black Panther (lolwut?), but the Metascore for Man of Steel was just 55 which was also in line with it's mixed reviews and it also matched it's 56% Rotten Tomatoes score.

Slander of the highest order by the ratings goons.

Man of Steel is an epic. It's three movies in one, without feeling overwhelming.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Cap one is better than a 6.9. Also the Incredible Hulk shouldn't count.

The Cap movies are very good, the best of the core 4's series. Thor 1 and 2 are forgettable as is Iron Man 2.

I didn't think that Cap 1 would stand up well over time, but I still highly enjoyed it after a few years. Pretty straightforward superhero movie though.

 

[ulukinatme]

The Cap movies are very good, the best of the core 4's series. Thor 1 and 2 are forgettable as is Iron Man 2.

I didn't think that Cap 1 would stand up well over time, but I still highly enjoyed it after a few years. Pretty straightforward superhero movie though.

I find Cap completely boring personally. He's just too straight edge and rather predictable. Don't get me wrong, you want the good guy to aspire to be Cap, but I don't think it's necessarily that entertaining to watch. He has few, if any, real flaws. Stark has his ego and for awhile the shrapnel is a major weakness. Thor is trusting and naive. Spider-Man is just a kid trying to balance the responsibilities of being a super hero and a high schooler. Banner obviously has control issues. Hawkeye deals with grief and lives for vengeance after the snap...etc, etc. What's Cap's flaw? He...fell in love with some chick back in the 40s? It doesn't really hold him back though, it's a sappy little love story that's tucked behind the main plot. The other characters are more compelling as a result of their flaws and trying to overcome them, Cap is just....Cap.