Another Shooting

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Cackalacky

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FTR I dont think anyone should be posting about violence to anyone. Also FTR I dont know if that is actually stuff from the kids Facebook page either. I have seen trolls trying to say white people were getting assaulted at Black Panther movies using fake pics and Facebook posts. Until I can confirm those are legit I think we need to all be wary. Much like the school shooter was supposedly Antifa.
 

wizards8507

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phgreek

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The starting point is understanding the damage high velocity bullets fired as quickly as mechanically possible into a human being including the range those weapons can accurately deliver their destructive capacity.

Subsequently, the discussion should turn to your points - capacity and number of rounds per time frame, but also consider bullets that are made for maximum damage - armor-piercing, bullets made to fragment as they enter the human body becoming multiple projectiles, etc. This probably addresses our points:
The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than Others

Which of these - magazine capacity, rounds per minute, types of ammunition - would you restrict? To me these all have been developed to maximize the damage to humans, though I understand you to say that you use 223s in single shots when hunting.

I think capacity is your sweet spot for successful legislation. Most people are able to wrap their heads around that. As for the mechanism...the semi auto is mostly limited by mechanical cycling, and the reflexes of the shooter...things like bump stocks circumvent limitation... retrofits intended for the purpose of increased throughput...I would argue thats probably not safe to shooter on an out of the box barrel. And of course, the rapid fire creates a near automatic effect. Bullets are tough to restrict. I guess you could try and draw a line around certain bullet constructions.

However...I hope everyone understands what the reality is. The ease with which magazines of high capacity can be printed/constructed at home, and the number of high capacity magazines that are already out there...when would you expect to see an impact from legislative action? I believe you may not live to see an improvement in death toll for a mass murder event by limiting capacity through legislative means. Personally I believe this effort is like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube. But maybe someone can make it so, and find a way to make it be effective.

Next, turn to what can be done to keep such destruction, originally made to destroy an enemy in battle, out of the hands of those who should not have it. Start with those who are "mentally ill" enough to threaten themselves or others with weapons. How did they obtain them outside of any registration system? Did they obtain it through flaws in our background check system?

very easily said....hard to establish mental criteria. Even harder to find a group of people trusted enough to objectively apply the criteria sans their politics. But yea...seems pretty logical...do not let people who are already known to have issues have a gun.

The fact that under Florida gun laws the Parkland perp and so many others should have been - and were not - entered into a national (and/or state) database due to involuntarily psych commitment or that the Texas church shooter due to his violence in the military and reasons for his dishonorable discharge are failures that need to be corrected immediately. Every gun sale should be registered and anyone selling guns needs to be registered just as anyone who purchases a car or obtains a driver's license must legally do. This separates law-abiding, responsible gun owners and gun dealers from those who are not.

Registrations hadn't bugged me. better data sharing and availability are ok with me.
...can't resist though...how many people do you think drive w/o license/registration/and insurance...

That's a starting point. What do you think?

(I may defer a response until tomorrow, since I may be exceeding my self-imposed three posts on Political Threads.)

It would appear I had to defer, due to Honey Dos and Kid interruptions :).
 

phork

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Registrations hadn't bugged me. better data sharing and availability are ok with me.
...can't resist though...how many people do you think drive w/o license/registration/and insurance...

Can't drive into a school and kill 20 kids at a time.
 

wizards8507

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Can't drive into a school and kill 20 kids at a time.
That's not the point. The point is that auto registration compliance isn't followed, so what makes anyone think that firearms registration would be? It MIGHT be effective if there were zero firearms in circulation and we started tracking all of them from the point of manufacture, but there's no starting point in reality that would make it effective.
 

BleedBlueGold

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We should be encouraging this type of behavior. Not turning underpaid teachers into private security.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When this teen noticed a major flaw in his school’s active-shooter emergency plan, he devised a solution in his metal shop class <a href="https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh">https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh</a> <a href="https://t.co/UmNiBPVN2o">pic.twitter.com/UmNiBPVN2o</a></p>— CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/966260642826121217?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Fantastic innovation, kid. Way to go. Every school needs these.
 
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Cackalacky

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That's not the point. The point is that auto registration compliance isn't followed, so what makes anyone think that firearms registration would be? It MIGHT be effective if there were zero firearms in circulation and we started tracking all of them from the point of manufacture, but there's no starting point in reality that would make it effective.

Do you buckle your seat belt when you drive? Does your child travel in an approved car seat? I assume you do... not only because you could die in an incident that wasnt your fault, its because someone else (including your child) could die from an incident that is your fault.


There are millions of cars already on the road when these safety precautions were developed and implemented. Why were these implemented? Even though driving is not a right driving unsafely killed millions of people (robbing them of their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness) so rules were implemented to change the culture of driving and to increase its safety. It took time. Did everyone right off the bat start using seat belts? No. Did everyone stop passing during driving in curves? No Do they now... yes.... Have many people realized that by doing these things they can potentially rob someones else of their life? Absolutely.

I get tired of hearing this argument that nothing should be done becasue it wont be effective. Its bunk. You should stop using it.
 
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wizards8507

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Do you buckle your seat belt when you drive? Does your child travel in an approved car seat? I assume you do... not only because you could die in an incident that wasnt your fault, its because someone else (including your child) could die from an incident that is your fault.

There are millions of cars already on the road when these safety precautions were developed and implemented. Why were these implemented? Even though driving is not a right driving unsafely killed millions of people (robbing them of their right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness) so rules were implemented to change the culture of driving and to increase its safety. It took time. Did everyone right off the bat start using seat belts? No. Did everyone stop passing during driving in curves? No Do they now... yes.... Have many people realized that by doing these things they can potentially rob someones else of their life? Absolutely.

I get tired of hearing this argument that nothing should be done becasue it wont be effective. Its bunk. You should stop using it.
You're 1) mixing metaphors and 2) putting words in my mouth that I never said. Seat belts and traffic rules actually make cars safer. Registration is just a list. It doesn't actually do anything.

And I never said "we shouldn't change anything because it wouldn't be effective." I said registrations, in particular, wouldn't be effective. I have various objections to other regulatory measures and there are other measures I don't object to at all.
 
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Cackalacky

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You're 1) mixing metaphors and 2) putting words in my mouth that I never said. Seat belts and traffic rules actually make cars safer. Registration is just a list. It doesn't actually do anything.

And I never said "we shouldn't change anything because it wouldn't be effective." I said registrations, in particular, wouldn't be effective. I have various objections to other regulatory measures and there are other measures I don't object to at all.

You said there is no point in tracking guns now with registration because there are unregistered guns in circulation now. I argued that that doesnt mean shit. We can start doing anything anytime we want. New registrations will help in the future to track guns and gun purchases and purchasers so that when future crimes are committed... hey we have a paper trail. If you want to buy a gun it has to be registered. If that gun turns up in the hands of a criminal who isnt the purchaser, the ATF can go knock on the purchaser and ask how his gun got in the hands of criminal. It does not stop the crime but it will punish those who dont follow the new law. Enough of those and people will be like hey I am not selling you my gun without following proper procedures and having a paper trail just LIKE HAVING TO REGISTER YOUR CAR WITH THE STATE or having to obtain a TITLE to the car during sales. Law abiding gun owners should ZERO problem registering their guns both previously purchased and future purchases.

Seat belt requirements and driving laws dont make the cars safer... they make DRIVING safer for the public in general. Accidents will happen. They just wont be as often or as bad or as lethal. I cant tell if you are being obtuse on purpose or if its not sinking in that minimal regulations derived to alter poor/dangerous social behaviors are beneficial to the society as a whole.

As for the argument of altering serial numbers and stuff there could be some improvements and sharing capabilities, but agian nothing will get done if nothing is allowed to be done via apathy or active measures preventing actions being taken.
https://www.npr.org/2013/05/20/185530763/the-low-tech-way-guns-get-traced
 
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wizards8507

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New registrations will help in the future to track guns and gun purchases and purchasers so that when future crimes are committed... hey we have a paper trail.
That doesn't do shit to make anyone safer.

Current state: Crazy guy shoots up school, kills loads of kids. Subsequent investigation reveals that he bought his rifle at Bob's Gun Shop on Main Street.

Future state: Crazy guy shoots up school, kills loads of kids. Search of registration database reveals that he bought his rifle at Bob's Gun Shop on Main Street.

Nothing has changed. The kids are still dead, we still know what we would have known anyways about the shooter and where his guns came from. But Cack can sleep better at night. That's all we've achieved, soothing liberal guilt.

Oh and don't forget that this whole database is going to add cost to legal gun owners and purchasers. It all needs to be paid for somehow, and that "somehow" is always new fees.
 

BleedBlueGold

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Can't you both be right?

Cack's method helps cut down straw man purchasers.

While it may not have done anything to prevent the FL shooting, I think there's been enough ideas that could've helped. For starters the GVRO would've 100% worked in this case (baring the Broward Co Sheriff office could manage to not screw it up).
 
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Cackalacky

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IrishLax

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Oahu and Buster had some good suggestions a few pages back.

One law I'd like to see is making fire arm retailers/manufacturers financially liable for how their gun is used. If there was a million dollar penalty for your firearm being used in a homicide, I bet you most retailers/manufacturers would stop selling guns to people they weren't as certain as humanly possible wouldn't use it for crime/terrorism/murder. It's one way for capitalism to actually solve a problem.

Put that financial penalty in place (have it expire after 5 years of sale and have a waiver for if the gun was stolen, etc.) plus things where individuals who own a gun have to get a full mental health checkup every year in order to keep their license & guns and I bet you violence drops precipitously over the next 10 years.
 

IrishLax

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I think I disagree with this. Its like all countermovement “leaders” if we can call them that at this point. They are always subject to things like this where it’s not their arguments are attacked and debated but ancillary stuff.... like taking selfies somehow diminishes their tragedy and their aim at fixing a societal wrong. The FBI did it to discredit MLK.

With any movement it has to continue or it risks dying. They have the opportunities to get their message out there ... and it’s not like they are the only ones trying or have been trying but enough is enough with these shootings and I fully support them getting through their greiving by however they choose to whether it’s by being politically active or not.

I agree that CNN and MSM have adopted these kids as faces and vessels for the time being, if you will but I don’t think the things many of the kids are being criticized for detracts from the argument they are making and trying to get out into the public.

The right aren’t trying to counter argument....they are trying to diminsh the movement/argument via character assassination or just destroy the speaker rather than the cogency of their arguments.

That's a good point, it's classic ad hominem style stuff that isn't relevant to the substance of the debate. I guess I just wish that the "public faces" were acting more mature and less divisive... but that's on some levels an unrealistic expectation for teenagers.
 

wizards8507

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Oahu and Buster had some good suggestions a few pages back.

One law I'd like to see is making fire arm retailers/manufacturers financially liable for how their gun is used. If there was a million dollar penalty for your firearm being used in a homicide, I bet you most retailers/manufacturers would stop selling guns to people they weren't as certain as humanly possible wouldn't use it for crime/terrorism/murder. It's one way for capitalism to actually solve a problem.

Put that financial penalty in place (have it expire after 5 years of sale and have a waiver for if the gun was stolen, etc.) plus things where individuals who own a gun have to get a full mental health checkup every year in order to keep their license & guns and I bet you violence drops precipitously over the next 10 years.
How exactly is a retailer supposed to know, much less a manufacturer? They don't have the investigative capability or authority to dig into a person's psyche like that. That's insane.
 

phgreek

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Oahu and Buster had some good suggestions a few pages back.

One law I'd like to see is making fire arm retailers/manufacturers financially liable for how their gun is used. If there was a million dollar penalty for your firearm being used in a homicide, I bet you most retailers/manufacturers would stop selling guns to people they weren't as certain as humanly possible wouldn't use it for crime/terrorism/murder. It's one way for capitalism to actually solve a problem.

Put that financial penalty in place (have it expire after 5 years of sale and have a waiver for if the gun was stolen, etc.) plus things where individuals who own a gun have to get a full mental health checkup every year in order to keep their license & guns and I bet you violence drops precipitously over the next 10 years.

I guess I give the weapon much less weight in the totality of things that it takes to kill one or many human beings. So while I understand the logic of what you suggest, I also wonder if adding a tax, or even the same ownership stake in outcome to Hollywood, social media, violent game makers, and parents. Because each have a part to play here as well...some much bigger than the gun.
 
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Cackalacky

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That's a good point, it's classic ad hominem style stuff that isn't relevant to the substance of the debate. I guess I just wish that the "public faces" were acting more mature and less divisive... but that's on some levels an unrealistic expectation for teenagers.

I agree, but really, we cant get adults to behave that way either. :)
 
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Cackalacky

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"We believe in absolutely gun-free, zero-tolerance, totally safe schools. That means no guns in America’s schools. Period." - Wayne LaPierre, then Executive Vice President of the NRA, in 1999 <a href="https://t.co/4payPo9RLA">pic.twitter.com/4payPo9RLA</a></p>— Robert Maguire (@RobertMaguire_) <a href="https://twitter.com/RobertMaguire_/status/967611173876240385?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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Cackalacky

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What the <a href="https://twitter.com/NRA?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@NRA</a> and Dana Loesch don't want you to see: <br><br>The following video clip is a basic AR-15 with a bump stock.<br><br>Make sure to watch the entire clip. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BoycottNRA?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BoycottNRA</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BanAssaultWeapons?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BanAssaultWeapons</a> <br><br>"Just an AR-15 on steroids." <a href="https://t.co/Gt5xKv3aNb">pic.twitter.com/Gt5xKv3aNb</a></p>— Jᴀsᴏɴ W. Tᴀʏʟᴏʀ (@JWadeTaylor) <a href="https://twitter.com/JWadeTaylor/status/967557639277367297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
ar-15 with bump stock.
 
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Cackalacky

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Oahu and Buster had some good suggestions a few pages back.

One law I'd like to see is making fire arm retailers/manufacturers financially liable for how their gun is used. If there was a million dollar penalty for your firearm being used in a homicide, I bet you most retailers/manufacturers would stop selling guns to people they weren't as certain as humanly possible wouldn't use it for crime/terrorism/murder. It's one way for capitalism to actually solve a problem.

Put that financial penalty in place (have it expire after 5 years of sale and have a waiver for if the gun was stolen, etc.) plus things where individuals who own a gun have to get a full mental health checkup every year in order to keep their license & guns and I bet you violence drops precipitously over the next 10 years.

This is something that a registration and tracking system would be beneificial of which I was trying to get a cross to wiz earlier. If there were severe penalties for improper sales and use, i guarantee you that registration system would be completely filled out and maintained by gun sellers ( public or private). I think a cradle to grave approach of sales for new guns is necessary and beneficial.
 

NorthDakota

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Oahu and Buster had some good suggestions a few pages back.

One law I'd like to see is making fire arm retailers/manufacturers financially liable for how their gun is used. If there was a million dollar penalty for your firearm being used in a homicide, I bet you most retailers/manufacturers would stop selling guns to people they weren't as certain as humanly possible wouldn't use it for crime/terrorism/murder. It's one way for capitalism to actually solve a problem.

Put that financial penalty in place (have it expire after 5 years of sale and have a waiver for if the gun was stolen, etc.) plus things where individuals who own a gun have to get a full mental health checkup every year in order to keep their license & guns and I bet you violence drops precipitously over the next 10 years.

Making gun makers liable? No thanks. They arent doing anything wrong.

Nobody should have to submit to an annual checkup in order to exercise constitutionally given rights.
 

IrishLion

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That's a good point, it's classic ad hominem style stuff that isn't relevant to the substance of the debate. I guess I just wish that the "public faces" were acting more mature and less divisive... but that's on some levels an unrealistic expectation for teenagers.

I agree, but really, we cant get adults to behave that way either. :)

I think another angle to consider is that the "public faces" that emerged from the student body were marked as "Crisis Actors" as soon as they made their first statements.

As soon as some on the far right realized that these kids actually had a voice, they went into "This Was A False Flag To Take Our Guns" mode.

I wonder how much that fueled the kids after their initial statements, and everything started snowballing... did the kids get more brave or bold in their comments because of the efforts by some to discount them and act like they weren't actually connected to the shooting? Or is it just teenagers starting feel emboldened, and showing the occasional immaturity that you would expect?

I live in Kentucky and am connected to a lot of, uh, very *Blindly Conservative* folk, we'll call them, but even they usually have their limits. But I can't tell you how visibly excited and how hard they were shouting both on social media and in person when these "False Flag/Crisis Actor" conspiracy posts started popping up. As soon as their guns came into center view, they latched on to some ridiculous shit, and it spread like wildfire in my area.

That happens every time a tragedy occurs, within every group that feels like they are the opposition, but this time it was more prevalent than I've ever seen or heard.

(And the funny thing about the "Crisis Actor Evidence" posts that were making the rounds, if you look at them, is they have a bunch of red circles around kids connected via red lines to other photos of the kids, as if they are evidence of something... but they are just additional pop-out photos, not even connecting the kids to other events that supposedly prove anything. It's literally just red circles to make people go "Ha yeah! They are fake!" even though the red circles and lines don't signify anything. I saw one post where the girl with the shaved head had long hair... and that was the whole post. They were calling her a crisis actor because she used to have long hair at one point.)
 
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wizards8507

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I think another angle to consider is that the "public faces" that emerged from the student body were marked as "Crisis Actors" as soon as they made their first statements.

As soon as some on the far right realized that these kids actually had a voice, they went into "This Was A False Flag To Take Our Guns" mode.

I wonder how much that fueled the kids after their initial statements, and everything started snowballing.

I live in Kentucky and am connected to a lot of, uh, very *Blindly Conservative* folk, we'll call them, but even they usually have their limits. But I can't tell you how visibly excited and how hard they were shouting both on social media and in person when these "False Flag/Crisis Actor" conspiracy posts started popping up. As soon as their guns came into center view, they latched on to some ridiculous shit.

That happens every time a tragedy occurs, but this time it was more prevalent than I've ever seen or heard.

(And the funny thing about the "Crisis Actor Evidence" posts that were making the rounds, if you look at them, is they have a bunch of red circles around kids connected via redline to other photos of the kids, as if they are evidence of something... but they are just additional pop-out photos, not even connecting the kids to other events that supposedly prove anything. It's literally just red circles to make people go "Ha yeah! They are fake!" even though the red circles and lines don't signify anything. I saw one post where the girl with the shaved head had long hair... and that was the whole post. They were calling her a crisis actor because she used to have long hair at one point.)
Nobody said that except for goons on Twitter and maybe Alex Jones. That's not a mainstream conservative or even right wing position.
 

wizards8507

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If a teenager is going to go on national TV and put out false information which needs to be corrected or slander other people they disagree, that's not attacking, and they are open to criticism. Maybe adults should step in and stop putting them on television.</p>— Stephen Miller (@redsteeze) <a href="https://twitter.com/redsteeze/status/968161855544942592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 26, 2018</a></blockquote>
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He had to say teenager because if he said "child" then Trump would apply.

But yeah I generally agree.
 

BleedBlueGold

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Twitter is giving the anti-gun kids verified accounts, but at the moment, ignoring the kid who went on Fox to speak his mind in opposition to Hogg, and others.
 

NorthDakota

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Twitter is giving the anti-gun kids verified accounts, but at the moment, ignoring the kid who went on Fox to speak his mind in opposition to Hogg, and others.

I've read like a tweet from this Hogg dude and one from that emma chick. His made no sense and hers was factually inaccurate. They will get no more of my time.
 
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