Another Shooting

[wizards8507]

 

[Buster Bluth]

The US Govt has had trouble with some rice farmers in Vietnam, and has had trouble in the middle east as well. Tough to try doing the same at home when you have to be much more delicate.

George Mason also thought a standing national army was a threat to liberty and should be avoided. Times change.

Bolded the points I cannot support, not big on the Mandatory safety classes either really, sounds like a burden.

1.) No-Fly, No-Buy? No. The government doesn't need to follow due process to put you on there(AFAIK). Without due process, I don't believe the government should restrict your rights.

2.) Three-months? Why? To buy a bolt action rifle or pump shotgun?

3.) Six months for a semi-auto? <---most guns. What is that going to do? I can't think of any other right I need to wait six months to exercise.

4.) Eight-rounds? Why eight? Also, what are you going to do about the millions of magazines out there that already have more than eight? Also, just from taking a glance on google, you can 3D print these things pretty easy anyway.

burden = "well regulated"

 

[SonofOahu]

Let's be fair to the deputy on campus, for a second. This is not the movies, people. I believe their training would dictate that the officers gather intel before running wildly into an active-shooter situation.

One thing for certain: when you hear shots around/in buildings, rooms, and other structures, you hear the report plus echo. Assuming this guy has no idea what the hell is going on, his first instinct would be to figure out if he's running to face one shooter versus multiple shooters. If he charges in, and guesses wrong, he dies plus he puts another weapon into the mix.

It's really easy for Private Bone Spurs, and anyone else with limited intelligence, to jump all over the guy. That's basically because people are stupid.

 

[wizards8507]

https://twitter.com/EllenD_world/status/966819914190385160

These kids are having a grand ol' time.

 

[wizards8507]

https://twitter.com/Bmac0507/status/967545446913654784

"Take a look at this video used to shoot a watermelon using an AR-15."

 

[Cackalacky]

https://twitter.com/Bmac0507/status/967545446913654784

"Take a look at this video used to shoot a watermelon using an AR-15."

FYI. If you use an iPhone you can share the tweet in this manner:

In the twitter app select share tweet via...
Choose open in safari....

Then select the down carat and you will see embed tweet...
Copy embed code....

Thanks.

 

[Cackalacky]

https://twitter.com/EllenD_world/status/966819914190385160

These kids are having a grand ol' time.

There is an all out assault degrading these kids and running these kids through the mud. Heaven forbid they cut loose for five minutes... smh

 

[Cackalacky]

We should be encouraging this type of behavior. Not turning underpaid teachers into private security.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When this teen noticed a major flaw in his school’s active-shooter emergency plan, he devised a solution in his metal shop class <a href="https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh">https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh</a> <a href="https://t.co/UmNiBPVN2o">pic.twitter.com/UmNiBPVN2o</a></p>— CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/966260642826121217?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[wizards8507]

We should be encouraging this type of behavior. Not turning underpaid teachers into private security.

Get that kid on Shark Tank.

 

[wizards8507]

FYI. If you use an iPhone you can share the tweet in this manner:

In the twitter app select share tweet via...
Choose open in safari....

Then select the down carat and you will see embed tweet...
Copy embed code....

Thanks.

I don't use an iPhone. It's weird... the links I post from Android Tapatalk show up as embedded tweets within Android Tapatalk, but it doesn't translate to people viewing on desktop.

 

[IrishLax]

There is an all out assault degrading these kids and running these kids through the mud. Heaven forbid they cut loose for five minutes... smh

From Wizard's linked Tweet... is any of this real or is it fake news --
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I would love for you to put this screenshot of Cameron Kasky's tweets on your studio projector so your audience can see what a nice Democrat boy he is. Whatdya say?? Don't worry, I won't hold my breathe! <a href="https://t.co/70fFZT4zn5">pic.twitter.com/70fFZT4zn5</a></p>— Jackie (@pr0truth) <a href="https://twitter.com/pr0truth/status/967589884301946880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But wait. There’s more. <a href="https://t.co/V6fN8HsHpc">pic.twitter.com/V6fN8HsHpc</a></p>— Viva Covfefe! (@MartinWiener) <a href="https://twitter.com/MartinWiener/status/967628411580563456?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Legacy]

Florida law is supposed to keep guns from the violent and mentally ill. It’s not working (Miami Herald)

In the days after a teenaged gunman opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School last week, Gov. Rick Scott and many of the state’s Republican lawmakers initially sidestepped the subject of gun control and instead focused on mental health, vowing to look at laws that keep guns away from violent people with mental illness.

That same message — that mental health is the problem, not guns — was repeated by the National Rifle Association at a packed CNN town hall this week.

“Do you know it is not federally required for states to actually report people who are prohibited possessors, crazy people, people who are murderers?” NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch said to jeers from a crowd of about 7,000 at the BB&T Center. “How was he able to pass a background check? He was able to pass a background check because we have a system that’s flawed.”

Actually, Florida has laws tailored to catch people exactly like Cruz. But they don’t work, experts say, for a host of reasons. They’ve been sporadically enforced or even ignored. The state’s mental health system, which would assess, treat and flag potential problems, is woefully underfunded. And guns can be obtained online, at gun shows and in myriad ways that avoid background checks...

Mental Health Reporting in Florida (Giffords Law Center)

Federal law prohibits possession of a firearm or ammunition by any person who has been “adjudicated as a mental defective” or involuntarily “committed to any mental institution.” No federal law, however, requires states to report the identities of these individuals to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) database, which the FBI uses to perform background checks prior to firearm transfers.

State law requires the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) to compile and maintain an automated database of persons who are prohibited from purchasing a firearm based on court records of adjudications of mental defectiveness or commitments to mental institutions. Clerks of court must submit these records to FDLE within one month after the rendition of the adjudication or commitment. Such reports must be submitted in an automated format. The reports must, at a minimum, include the name, along with any known alias or former name, the gender, and the date of birth of the subject....

Florida Mental Health Act aka the Baker Act. (Wiki)

 

[SonofOahu]

We should be encouraging this type of behavior. Not turning underpaid teachers into private security.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When this teen noticed a major flaw in his school’s active-shooter emergency plan, he devised a solution in his metal shop class <a href="https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh">https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh</a> <a href="https://t.co/UmNiBPVN2o">pic.twitter.com/UmNiBPVN2o</a></p>— CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/966260642826121217?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

In my opinion, it's too complex to set up in a real-world situation. Don't get me wrong, that's a great product. I just don't think anyone would be able to set it up during an actual shooting event.

 

[SonofOahu]

From Wizard's linked Tweet... is any of this real or is it fake news --
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I would love for you to put this screenshot of Cameron Kasky's tweets on your studio projector so your audience can see what a nice Democrat boy he is. Whatdya say?? Don't worry, I won't hold my breathe! <a href="https://t.co/70fFZT4zn5">pic.twitter.com/70fFZT4zn5</a></p>— Jackie (@pr0truth) <a href="https://twitter.com/pr0truth/status/967589884301946880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But wait. There’s more. <a href="https://t.co/V6fN8HsHpc">pic.twitter.com/V6fN8HsHpc</a></p>— Viva Covfefe! (@MartinWiener) <a href="https://twitter.com/MartinWiener/status/967628411580563456?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Good for him! This is the kind of fire I want to see in the next generation of lefties.

 

[phgreek]

https://twitter.com/Bmac0507/status/967545446913654784

"Take a look at this video used to shoot a watermelon using an AR-15."

Seriously...SMH. This is how dumb the what and how of the banning discussion is...

We can talk about capacity intelligently...we can talk about retrofit kits that deliver near automatic firing capability that aren't integral to the original firing mechanism...but thats about all. The rest of it is ...well...not productive.

I have a .308, and a .223 (I believe those have been traditional rounds used by war fighters). They hold 3 or 4 rounds...I think (I shoot one at a time). The .223 round is flat, and lethal, but one fired from a 50 round "AR-15" is no more lethal, bullet for bullet, than the one I shoot out of my woody stock, bolt action...the gun platform has no influence on physics...generally. The issue is capacity.

This "AR" banning discussion is sincerely mind numbing. Needs to stop now, and the same energy put there needs to be directed at things like why people are engaging in mass murder like this.

Rather you want to hear it or not, there is a serious social decay issue at play here...and the contributing factors...ah no one wants to actually discuss the hard things. Its just easier to continue in the spiral, and take things away...dumb and ineffective.

Same sad cycle

...SCREAMS "But we gotta do something!" mumbles ..."to make ourselves feel better, and virtue signal, while we ignore the bigger issues".

 

[IrishLax]

Good for him! This is the kind of fire I want to see in the next generation of lefties.

So you think attacking people for saying “God” is appropriate? And assault of politicians you don’t agree with should be encouraged/celebrated?

 

[phgreek]

Good for him! This is the kind of fire I want to see in the next generation of lefties.

Evryone deals with trauma a little differently. I simply don't know what these kids are dealing with. That said, even before this event, this kid seemed overly political and angry for his age....seems like adults around him might try and hear him, but also help him, not encourage him to be the worst him he can be.

 

[Legacy]

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns (The Atlantic)

As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the nation for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?

Mangled tissue and softball-sized exit wounds: Why AR-15 injuries are so devastating (Miami Herald)

The AR-15, the semiautomatic rifle used at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in the deadliest high school shooting in U.S. history, uses bullets that can cause softball-sized exit wounds, leaving behind a significantly larger trail of mangled tissue compared to handgun bullets.

For trauma surgeons, the injuries are harder to repair. For victims, the chances of survival are lower.

“We’re surgeons, we’re not gods,” said Dr. Nicholas Namias, the director of Ryder Trauma Center at Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, which treats about 400 serious gunshot injuries every year. “If you have an injury from a bullet going through an artery at a low velocity, you repair it and go on your way. If you have a high velocity bullet, now you have a huge cavity. Imagine a cavity the size of your fist where everything that should have been there no longer is. How do you fix that?”

The AR-15 and similar rifles fire bullets at a speed of about 2,800 to 3,000 feet per second, compared to a 9 millimeter handgun, which fires bullets at a speed of between 700 and 1,100 feet per second, according to Dr. David Shatz, a trauma surgeon at the University of California, Davis. The difference in speed is what leads to more fatal injuries from people wounded by AR-15s and similar rifles than handguns.

 

[phgreek]

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns (The Atlantic)


Mangled tissue and softball-sized exit wounds: Why AR-15 injuries are so devastating (Miami Herald)

right...but the "AR" has NOTHING to do with the damage. Rather you fire a .223 with a zip gun or an AR style weapon...it does the same thing. The .223 and similar high velocity rifle rounds are very common hunting bullets because of the reasons cited by medical staff...ie they reliably deliver lethality and are considered more humane when taking the life of an animal. So you are not going to ban the bullet...thats a non-starter. If that is the underlying motivation for the Dr., he/she is wasting time. If the aim is to conflate the bullet's lethality with the platform...ie AR, again, not effective.

If the Dr. was speaking somehow to capacity, or the number of rounds delivered in a time frame...that is where I think folks can talk.

 

[phgreek]

In my opinion, it's too complex to set up in a real-world situation. Don't get me wrong, that's a great product. I just don't think anyone would be able to set it up during an actual shooting event.

Awesome...can't say enough about THAT type of thinking, and problem solving. I hope he makes millions....

 

[Cackalacky]

From Wizard's linked Tweet... is any of this real or is it fake news --
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I would love for you to put this screenshot of Cameron Kasky's tweets on your studio projector so your audience can see what a nice Democrat boy he is. Whatdya say?? Don't worry, I won't hold my breathe! <a href="https://t.co/70fFZT4zn5">pic.twitter.com/70fFZT4zn5</a></p>— Jackie (@pr0truth) <a href="https://twitter.com/pr0truth/status/967589884301946880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But wait. There’s more. <a href="https://t.co/V6fN8HsHpc">pic.twitter.com/V6fN8HsHpc</a></p>— Viva Covfefe! (@MartinWiener) <a href="https://twitter.com/MartinWiener/status/967628411580563456?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 25, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

IDK who he is. Never heard of his name. Doesn’t negate my point that the right is out in full force degrading many of these kids from what I am seeing.

 

[phgreek]

IDK who he is. Never heard of his name. Doesn’t negate my point that the right is out in full force degrading many of these kids from what I am seeing.

Can't speak to what you see...just saw what was posted here, and that he seems tipped over a bit, and he is getting a national voice...I would think there are others, given what I see, who could better represent the kids who suffered. If the Right is doin' what you say, this kid seems to make it easier for them...poor choice by Ellen....but then I'm not sure she cares...shrug.

 

[IrishLax]

IDK who he is. Never heard of his name. Doesn’t negate my point that the right is out in full force degrading many of these kids from what I am seeing.

This guy and the girl with short hair are the number one public faces for the HS kids and leading the march/movement thing. I believe he’s the one that held Rubio’s feet to the fire at the CNN town hall thing.

Reason I ask is if these kids were saying this kind of stuff before the shooting I 100% understand people giving them shit. Especially combined with them grinning ear to ear and taking selfies before all of their media appearances... they come off as opportunists, not people gravely concerned about the death of their classmates.

Again, no idea if any of that stuff from Wizard’s tweet is true. But if so, these are not the kind of people you want leading a movement aimed at bipartisan gun control legislation.

 

[wizards8507]

This guy and the girl with short hair are the number one public faces for the HS kids and leading the march/movement thing. I believe he’s the one that held Rubio’s feet to the fire at the CNN town hall thing.

Reason I ask is if these kids were saying this kind of stuff before the shooting I 100% understand people giving them shit. Especially combined with them grinning ear to ear and taking selfies before all of their media appearances... they come off as opportunists, not people gravely concerned about the death of their classmates.

Again, no idea if any of that stuff from Wizard’s tweet is true. But if so, these are not the kind of people you want leading a movement aimed at bipartisan gun control legislation.

Even if they weren't saying this stuff before the shooting... Victim status does not grant moral authority, nor does youth grant immunity from criticism.

Analogy: A 17 year old's father is killed by an Islamic terrorist and that kid is on Fox News for two weeks straight talking about how we need to deport all Muslims. Cack would be in here like the rest of us telling that kid to shut up.

 

[Cackalacky]

This guy and the girl with short hair are the number one public faces for the HS kids and leading the march/movement thing. I believe he’s the one that held Rubio’s feet to the fire at the CNN town hall thing.

Reason I ask is if these kids were saying this kind of stuff before the shooting I 100% understand people giving them shit. Especially combined with them grinning ear to ear and taking selfies before all of their media appearances... they come off as opportunists, not people gravely concerned about the death of their classmates.

Again, no idea if any of that stuff from Wizard’s tweet is true. But if so, these are not the kind of people you want leading a movement aimed at bipartisan gun control legislation.

I think I disagree with this. Its like all countermovement “leaders” if we can call them that at this point. They are always subject to things like this where it’s not their arguments are attacked and debated but ancillary stuff.... like taking selfies somehow diminishes their tragedy and their aim at fixing a societal wrong. The FBI did it to discredit MLK.

With any movement it has to continue or it risks dying. They have the opportunities to get their message out there ... and it’s not like they are the only ones trying or have been trying but enough is enough with these shootings and I fully support them getting through their greiving by however they choose to whether it’s by being politically active or not.

I agree that CNN and MSM have adopted these kids as faces and vessels for the time being, if you will but I don’t think the things many of the kids are being criticized for detracts from the argument they are making and trying to get out into the public.

The right aren’t trying to counter argument....they are trying to diminsh the movement/argument via character assassination or just destroy the speaker rather than the cogency of their arguments.

 

[Legacy]

right...but the "AR" has NOTHING to do with the damage. Rather you fire a .223 with a zip gun or an AR style weapon...it does the same thing. The .223 and similar high velocity rifle rounds are very common hunting bullets because of the reasons cited by medical staff...ie they reliably deliver lethality and are considered more humane when taking the life of an animal. So you are not going to ban the bullet...thats a non-starter. If that is the underlying motivation for the Dr., he/she is wasting time. If the aim is to conflate the bullet's lethality with the platform...ie AR, again, not effective.

If the Dr. was speaking somehow to capacity, or the number of rounds delivered in a time frame...that is where I think folks can talk.

The starting point is understanding the damage high velocity bullets fired as quickly as mechanically possible into a human being including the range those weapons can accurately deliver their destructive capacity.

Subsequently, the discussion should turn to your points - capacity and number of rounds per time frame, but also consider bullets that are made for maximum damage - armor-piercing, bullets made to fragment as they enter the human body becoming multiple projectiles, etc. This probably addresses our points:
The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than Others

Which of these - magazine capacity, rounds per minute, types of ammunition - would you restrict? To me these all have been developed to maximize the damage to humans, though I understand you to say that you use 223s in single shots when hunting.

Next, turn to what can be done to keep such destruction, originally made to destroy an enemy in battle, out of the hands of those who should not have it. Start with those who are "mentally ill" enough to threaten themselves or others with weapons. How did they obtain them outside of any registration system? Did they obtain it through flaws in our background check system?

The fact that under Florida gun laws the Parkland perp and so many others should have been - and were not - entered into a national (and/or state) database due to involuntarily psych commitment or that the Texas church shooter due to his violence in the military and reasons for his dishonorable discharge are failures that need to be corrected immediately. Every gun sale should be registered and anyone selling guns needs to be registered just as anyone who purchases a car or obtains a driver's license must legally do. This separates law-abiding, responsible gun owners and gun dealers from those who are not.

That's a starting point. What do you think?

(I may defer a response until tomorrow, since I may be exceeding my self-imposed three posts on Political Threads.)

 

[wizards8507]

The starting point is understanding the damage high velocity bullets fired as quickly as mechanically possible into a human being including the range those weapons can accurately deliver their destructive capacity.

Subsequently, the discussion should turn to your points - capacity and number of rounds per time frame, but also consider bullets that are made for maximum damage - armor-piercing, bullets made to fragment as they enter the human body becoming multiple projectiles, etc. This probably addresses our points:
The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than Others

Which of these - magazine capacity, rounds per minute, types of ammunition - would you restrict? To me these all have been developed to maximize the damage to humans, though I understand you to say that you use 223s in single shots when hunting.

Next, turn to what can be done to keep such destruction, originally made to destroy an enemy in battle, out of the hands of those who should not have it. Start with those who are "mentally ill" enough to threaten themselves or others with weapons. How did they obtain them outside of any registration system? Did they obtain it through flaws in our background check system?

The fact that under Florida gun laws the Parkland perp and so many others should have been - and were not - entered into a national (and/or state) database due to involuntarily psych commitment or that the Texas church shooter due to his violence in the military and reasons for his dishonorable discharge are failures that need to be corrected immediately. Every gun sale should be registered and anyone selling guns needs to be registered just as anyone who purchases a car or obtains a driver's license must legally do. This separates law-abiding, responsible gun owners and gun dealers from those who are not.

That's a starting point. What do you think?

(I may defer a response until tomorrow, since I may be exceeding my self-imposed three posts on Political Threads.)

Except that everything you're suggesting also neuters arms and ammunition for legitimate self defense purposes. If there's an intruder that poses a threat to my wife or daughters, you're goddamn right I want the bullets in my gun to rip his insides to shreds.

 

[Irishize]

We should be encouraging this type of behavior. Not turning underpaid teachers into private security.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When this teen noticed a major flaw in his school’s active-shooter emergency plan, he devised a solution in his metal shop class <a href="https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh">https://t.co/r3AuPqFQmh</a> <a href="https://t.co/UmNiBPVN2o">pic.twitter.com/UmNiBPVN2o</a></p>— CNN (@CNN) <a href="https://twitter.com/CNN/status/966260642826121217?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 21, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That’s awesome

 

[Irishize]

So you think attacking people for saying “God” is appropriate? And assault of politicians you don’t agree with should be encouraged/celebrated?

He’s calling for violence & death for those he disagrees with. Maybe Churchill was right & he’ll outgrow this but he strikes me as a true believer that the likes of Mao, Stalin & Hitler would endorse.

 

[Cackalacky]

Even if they weren't saying this stuff before the shooting... Victim status does not grant moral authority, nor does youth grant immunity from criticism.

Analogy: A 17 year old's father is killed by an Islamic terrorist and that kid is on Fox News for two weeks straight talking about how we need to deport all Muslims. Cack would be in here like the rest of us telling that kid to shut up.

That’s completely unfair to me and I would never tell a kid to shut up for expressing an opinion. I would attack/debate their argument. Not the fact they were on the news or tv shows saying those things. Kid or not they would be presentIng an argument or POV. Debate that... I wouldnt break the kid down or perform character assassination in lieu of debating their POV.