All Things Star Wars Thread (Spoilers)

[Domina Nostra]

You all have clearly never had a wife who breastfeeds. That scene didn't strike me as odd at all. I still have a number of problems with the movie but that wasn't one of them.

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LOL! What are you talking about? What does a grown man milking a reclining, 6-boobed, walrus-alien while talking to a stranger have to do with your wife's breastfeeding?

Breastfeeding is one of those newly-minted sacred cows where you have to show your bona fides at every possible opportunity. I thought the scene was awkwardly funny, personally, but it takes absolutely no imagination to figure out why someone might think it was weird.

haha. I liked Rogue One too and its entire plot was to correct a plot hole from ANH and it didnt even really do that. But ok...

My point wasnt that my kid liked it proved anything..... Its that you if you engage in analyzing feats that require a suspension of disbelief by not disbelieving, you will be let down. Our initial love of the movies as children is not based on hyper critical analysis.

Suspension of disbelief has to be earned and rules have to be obeyed once they are laid down! It was easy to "believe" that a Jedi could lift a rock within the original story. It would have been hard to believe that a character could lift a star destroyer because there would be no explaining why he didn't just use that power to win every battle.

Here, it was easy to believe that Snoke and Kylo could wrench information out of a prisoner's head. It was hard to believe that a mega-powerful dark-side master who could compel force meetings across the universe in order to manipulate a potential Jedi, and could literally read minds, would miss Kylo Ren's dumb trick while he was literally focused directly on reading KR's mind for that exact purpose.

Snoke: "Yes, I can what Kylo Ren is thinking right now! He's thinking, 'I wonder if I could move that other lightsaber, the one right next to Snoke, at the same time I'm moving this lightsaber, and kill him with it'. . . wait a second!!!"

 

[zelezo vlk]

LOL! What are you talking about? What does a grown man milking a reclingin, 6-boobed, walrus-alien while talking to a stranger have to do with your wife's breastfeeding?

Breastfeeding is one of those newly-minted sacred cows where you have to show your bona fides at every possible opportunity. I thought the scene was awkwardly funny, personally, but it takes absolutely no imagination to figure out why someone might think it was weird.

Wiz is just trolling, it's best just to ignore him

 

[gkIrish]

You all have clearly never had a wife who breastfeeds. That scene didn't strike me as odd at all. I still have a number of problems with the movie but that wasn't one of them.

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I may be mixing up the order but pretty sure before he milked the cow thing he transported himself across a wide chasm on the end of a long spear and then speared the fish. That sure gave me a crazy hermit who has lost the ability to use the Force vibe

 

[irishnd31]

You all have clearly never had a wife who breastfeeds. That scene didn't strike me as odd at all. I still have a number of problems with the movie but that wasn't one of them.

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[Cackalacky]

LOL! What are you talking about? What does a grown man milking a reclining, 6-boobed, walrus-alien while talking to a stranger have to do with your wife's breastfeeding?

Breastfeeding is one of those newly-minted sacred cows where you have to show your bona fides at every possible opportunity. I thought the scene was awkwardly funny, personally, but it takes absolutely no imagination to figure out why someone might think it was weird.



Suspension of disbelief has to be earned and rules have to be obeyed once they are laid down! It was easy to "believe" that a Jedi could lift a rock within the original story. It would have been hard to believe that a character could lift a star destroyer because there would be no explaining why he didn't just use that power to win every battle.

Here, it was easy to believe that Snoke and Kylo could wrench information out of a prisoner's head. It was hard to believe that a mega-powerful dark-side master who could compel force meetings across the universe in order to manipulate a powerful Jedi, and could literally read minds, could get tricked by Kylo Ren's dumb trick while he was literally focused directly on reading his mind for that exact purpose.

I disagree. What "rules" are there in a universe where everyone whips around in hyper space without aging? What rules are there in a universe where communications travel faster than light? There are literally no obeyance to laws of physics at all in the Star Wars Universe. It is definitely not like Star Trek where they try to be scientific. There is nothing scientific or rule based. The limits are imposed on the story by us as observers and by canon in so far as that canon has attributed those rules to the universe. (Suspension of disbelief). Leia never once used force abilities, yet in this movie she does. From my POV that is neat. I liked it. I liked knowing that Leia could do that. That is actually bad ass. I also like knowing that Kylo could stop a blaster bolt. We hadnt seen that before. We also have not seen a jedi force protect across the galaxy. IMO that is FUCKING COOL but totally impossible if you as an observer say a "JEDI CANT DO THAT!"

Snoke was very clearly full of himself and apparently suffered from hubris. Its not surprising to me to think he was hyper focusing on Kylo planning to strike after insulting him instead of focusing on the here and now like Yoda tells Luke. This is like the least controversial interpretation of this scene. Snoke was focused on Kylo and not the lightsaber next to him "

"This is lazy writing !!? ARGGHHH!!!" lol

 

[gkIrish]

LOL! What are you talking about? What does a grown man milking a reclining, 6-boobed, walrus-alien while talking to a stranger have to do with your wife's breastfeeding?

Breastfeeding is one of those newly-minted sacred cows where you have to show your bona fides at every possible opportunity. I thought the scene was awkwardly funny, personally, but it takes absolutely no imagination to figure out why someone might think it was weird.



Suspension of disbelief has to be earned and rules have to be obeyed once they are laid down! It was easy to "believe" that a Jedi could lift a rock within the original story. It would have been hard to believe that a character could lift a star destroyer because there would be no explaining why he didn't just use that power to win every battle.

Here, it was easy to believe that Snoke and Kylo could wrench information out of a prisoner's head. It was hard to believe that a mega-powerful dark-side master who could compel force meetings across the universe in order to manipulate a potential Jedi, and could literally read minds, would miss Kylo Ren's dumb trick while he was literally focused directly on reading KR's mind for that exact purpose.

Snoke: "Yes, I can what Kylo Ren is thinking right now! He's thinking, 'I wonder if I could move that other lightsaber, the one right next to Snoke, at the same time I'm moving this lightsaber, and kill him with it'. . . wait a second!!!"

Absolutely nailed it.

 

[gkIrish]

I disagree. What "rules" are there in a universe where everyone whips around in hyper space without aging? What rules are there in a universe where communications travel faster than light? There are literally no obeyance to laws of physics at all in the Star Wars Universe. It is definitely not like Star Trek where they try to be scientific. There is nothing scientific or rule based. The limits are imposed on the story by us as observers and by canon in so far as that canon has attributed those rules to the universe. (Suspension of disbelief). Leia never once used force abilities, yet in this movie she does. From my POV that is neat. I liked it. I liked knowing that Leia could do that. That is actually bad ass. I also like knowing that Kylo could stop a blaster bolt. We hadnt seen that before. We also have not seen a jedi force protect across the galaxy. IMO that is FUCKING COOL but totally impossible if you as an observer say a "JEDI CANT DO THAT!"

Snoke was very clearly full of himself and apparently suffered from hubris. Its not surprising to me to think he was hyper focusing on Kylo planning to strike after insulting him instead of focusing on the here and now like Yoda tells Luke. This is like the least controversial interpretation of this scene. Snoke was focused on Kylo and not the lightsaber next to him "

"This is lazy writing !!? ARGGHHH!!!" lol

Your perspective basically confirms what I said earlier....there's nothing that could make you dislike this movie. You are willing to accept anything as possible because the Star Wars universe itself is not real.

No one is upset that Leia used the Force. That made a lot of sense. HOW she used the Force is what's crazy. I would have been upset if Luke did that same thing and just survived outer space like that. How in the world did the Emperor die when be could have just pulled himself towards something and save his life. He wasn't even injured! And then all he would need to do is float out of the Death Star into a TIE fighter nearby before it exploded. Do you see why the shit in this movie basically makes all the previous movies seem like bullshit now?

*Edited my description of the Emperors death a bit

 

[Cackalacky]

Your perspective basically confirms what I said earlier....there's nothing that could make you dislike this movie. You are willing to accept anything as possible because the Star Wars universe itself is not real.

No one is upset that Leia used the Force. That made a lot of sense. HOW she used the Force is what's crazy. I would have been upset if Luke did that same thing and just survived outer space like that. How in the world is the Emperor dead if all that happened is that he was thrown down a shaft??? Surely he could pull himself towards something and save his life while he was floating down the endless tunnel. He wasn't even injured! And then all he would need to do is float out of the Death Star into a TIE fighter nearby before it exploded. Do you see why the shit in this movie basically makes all the previous movies seem like bullshit now?

Re bolded---Absolutely becasue anything is possible unless I impose a limit on it or the canon does.

The emperor didnt have that power, didnt develop it or otherwise could not survive incineration in the core of the death star. Leia was exposed to space for all of 2 minutes. Big difference. Does it need to be explained though?

 

[Cackalacky]

FTR I know this is a frustrating discussion to have and I am not trying to frustrate anyone

 

[gkIrish]

Re bolded---Absolutely becasue anything is possible unless I impose a limit on it or the canon does.

The emperor didnt have that power, didnt develop it or otherwise could not survive incineration in the core of the death star. Leia was exposed to space for all of 2 minutes. Big difference. Does it need to be explained though?

I edited my post slightly. My point is that the Emperor was not injured, and there was no reason he couldn't have pulled himself towards something when he was falling. The idea is that these movies are supposed to be sequels. They aren't supposed to make you question why the hell certain things didn't happen in previous movies.

Yoda is supposed to be the most powerful Jedi with 900 years of training and it takes him a whole lot of effort to lift up the XWing out of the swamp. Leia has MAX 30 years of training and she can be basically unconscious, wiggle her fingers, and guide herself into a ship after bring blasted into space. Straight Family Guy nonsense.

 

[irishnd31]

FTR I know this is a frustrating discussion to have and I am not trying to frustrate anyone

It reminds me of a political debate. There are no right answers or wrong answers. This is one of the more adult debates I have ever read on IE. Civil and smart posts on both sides of this. I just happen to agree with you and for those who don't like the movie, you all can suck a Wookie dong. (Just kidding. I'm enjoying seeing the varying opinions and am learning so much about SW outside of what I've seen in the movies.)

 

[Cackalacky]

I edited my post slightly. My point is that the Emperor was not injured, and there was no reason he couldn't have pulled himself towards something when he was falling. The idea is that these movies are supposed to be sequels. They aren't supposed to make you question why the hell certain things didn't happen in previous movies.

Yoda is supposed to be the most powerful Jedi with 900 years of training and it takes him a whole lot of effort to lift up the XWing out of the swamp. Leia has MAX 30 years of training and she can be basically unconscious, wiggle her fingers, and guide herself into a ship after bring blasted into space. Straight Family Guy nonsense.

I disagree that Leia's ability is nonsense as we dont have frame of reference of her skills. In essence, applying your logic applied to the whole universe makes the entire story and fictional universe nonsense. Just becasue you are not privy to Leia's development doesnt make what she did nonsense. We dont know what she practices, how much she practices nor how good she was at it. And if anything in the OT is to be used as evidence, Luke became a master force user within a decade.

So what you are saying is there there are inconsistencies connecting the OT with the prequels and sequels... ok. I understand that. It would be awesome if we could go back and remake the OT and give the abilities that we see now in the later movies. Like Palpatine was able to throw the senate seats all over the Senate at YOda but couldnt stop Vader from throwing him down a hole. Maybe he should have been more aware of Vader's intentions while he was torturing Luke like Snoke did w/ Kylo? You are going to kill your self trying to make sense of things that occurred when characters weren't fleshed out and a timeline isnt fully articulated in the OT and simultaneously remove any enjoyment out of the movies, books, cartoons etc.

 

[IrishLion]

It was hard to believe that a mega-powerful dark-side master who could compel force meetings across the universe in order to manipulate a potential Jedi, and could literally read minds, would miss Kylo Ren's dumb trick while he was literally focused directly on reading KR's mind for that exact purpose.

Snoke: "Yes, I can what Kylo Ren is thinking right now! He's thinking, 'I wonder if I could move that other lightsaber, the one right next to Snoke, at the same time I'm moving this lightsaber, and kill him with it'. . . wait a second!!!"

I thought the implication was that Kylo was using Snoke's own visions of Kylo's intentions to hide his actions... Snoke could see the intention of a lightsaber turning towards a target and activating, but he failed to see the specific lightsaber and the specific target.

Basically, Snoke was a vain douche who's downfall was his own overconfidence in the material world around him.

 

[Cackalacky]

I thought the implication was that Kylo was using Snoke's own visions of Kylo's intentions to hide his actions... Snoke could see the intention of a lightsaber turning towards a target and activating, but he failed to see the specific lightsaber and the specific target.

Basically, Snoke was a vain douche who's downfall was his own overconfidence in the material world around him.

I essentially said the same thing. I agree with this.

 

[gkIrish]

I disagree that Leia's ability is nonsense as we dont have frame of reference of her skills. In essence, applying your logic applied to the whole universe makes the entire story and fictional universe nonsense. Just becasue you are not privy to Leia's development doenst make what she did nonsense.

So what you are saying is there there are inconsistencies connecting the OT with the prequels and sequels... ok. I understand that. It would be awesome if we could go back and remake the OT and give the abilities that we see now in the later movies. Like Palpatine was able to throw the senate seats all over the Senate at YOda but couldnt stop Vader from throwing him down a hole. Maybe he should have been more aware of Vader's intentions while he was torturing Luke like Snoke did w/ Kylo? You are going to kill your self trying to make sense of things that occurred when characters weren't fleshed out and a timeline isnt fully articulated in the OT and simultaneously remove any enjoyment out of the movies, books, cartoons etc.

You say it would be nice if we could go back and remake the OT to fit what we saw in TLJ. So it seems like we agree that they are inconsistent. But we can't remake those movies. What they could have done is make this movie consistent with the old ones. While I didn't love TFA because I felt it was too similar to ANH, I didn't think the movie was inherently unbelievable at any point. It all seemed reasonable. Sure there were some minor Mary Sue things with Ren but nothing that made me wonder what I was watching.

 

[IrishLion]

You say it would be nice if we could go back and remake the OT to fit what we saw in TLJ. So it seems like we agree that they are inconsistent. But we can't remake those movies. What they could have done is make this movie consistent with the old ones. While I didn't love TFA because I felt it was too similar to ANH, I didn't think the movie was inherently unbelievable at any point. It all seemed reasonable. Sure there were some minor Mary Sue things with Ren but nothing that made me wonder what I was watching.

I don't get the "Rey as a Mary Sue" thing, and not just because I'm blind to criticism.

I figured it was their intent to show Rey as wildly powerful but untrained, which I think they've done pretty well. I think the biggest evidence was the way the island was reacting to her Force-Questing for balance, and the way the stones on the pedestal were all elevating as she concentrated. It took Luke some time on Dagobah to learn how to do things like that... but Rey is gifted enough naturally that she was Force-pulling lightsabers and resisting mind control back in TFA, so of course she's going to advance rapidly with Luke telling her what to focus on.

I mentioned it after seeing the movie, but it looked to me like Rey was using four or five different lightsaber fighting styles on her own, without even knowing what she was doing, when she decided to train herself at the rock spur. At one point she was fighting normally; another had her wielding it like it was her staff; another had her doing something kind of weird; another had her using a reverse grip like Starkiller in the "Force Unleashed" games.

I think they're building her up as someone naturally gifted beyond belief, rather than simply Mary Sue-ing her through certain plot points.

The fact that she stole the Jedi texts before Yoda lit the tree up is an added bonus.

 

[wizards8507]

I may be mixing up the order but pretty sure before he milked the cow thing he transported himself across a wide chasm on the end of a long spear and then speared the fish. That sure gave me a crazy hermit who has lost the ability to use the Force vibe

It was a setup for Rey's line a little bit later on. "I've seen your daily routine. You're not busy."

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[Buster Bluth]

I don't get the "Rey as a Mary Sue" thing, and not just because I'm blind to criticism.

I figured it was their intent to show Rey as wildly powerful but untrained, which I think they've done pretty well. I think the biggest evidence was the way the island was reacting to her Force-Questing for balance, and the way the stones on the pedestal were all elevating as she concentrated. It took Luke some time on Dagobah to learn how to do things like that... but Rey is gifted enough naturally that she was Force-pulling lightsabers and resisting mind control back in TFA, so of course she's going to advance rapidly with Luke telling her what to focus on.

I mentioned it after seeing the movie, but it looked to me like Rey was using four or five different lightsaber fighting styles on her own, without even knowing what she was doing, when she decided to train herself at the rock spur. At one point she was fighting normally; another had her wielding it like it was her staff; another had her doing something kind of weird; another had her using a reverse grip like Starkiller in the "Force Unleashed" games.

I think they're building her up as someone naturally gifted beyond belief, rather than simply Mary Sue-ing her through certain plot points.

The fact that she stole the Jedi texts before Yoda lit the tree up is an added bonus.

Wait didn't you just describe a Mary Sue?

What Disney is doing is just elevating the powers of all the new characters, making the old ones inferior and obsolete (and making the OG trilogy worthless). Obi-Wan is saddened that Luke is toast in The Empire Strikes Back, but now we have Mary Sues effing people up and orphans grabbing brooms without thinking twice. That makes Obi-Wan's worries and even Yoda's plead that he "must complete his training" pretty much a joke IMO.

This is pretty common for franchises. I'm not a WoW player but I guess all of the OG weapons and dealios are effectively worthless. A few months ago I was surprised that my seven-year old nephew was completely apathetic when I gave him my original Pokemon collection that I had tucked away in a shoebox, he just shrugged and said they weren't any good. Pokemon had leveled the whole game up and my holographic OGs were worthless.

The new Star Wars trilogy basically makes the original trilogy worthless, for two big reasons: they recycled the plot and leveled up the natural abilities of the characters.

 

[Cackalacky]

You say it would be nice if we could go back and remake the OT to fit what we saw in TLJ. So it seems like we agree that they are inconsistent. But we can't remake those movies. What they could have done is make this movie consistent with the old ones. While I didn't love TFA because I felt it was too similar to ANH, I didn't think the movie was inherently unbelievable at any point. It all seemed reasonable. Sure there were some minor Mary Sue things with Ren but nothing that made me wonder what I was watching.

I guess I accept that there were things creatively that could'nt be done at the time of the OT or they were not ever developed stry-wise at that time. I like that Sidious is as powerful as he is now and I accept that they just didnt have that hashed out or developed when he was seen in the OT. I am fine with that. I can watch ROTJ, know that he is very powerful and that he still got thrown down a hole.

All this must really suck for all those people who are emotionally invested in the EU though.

 

[wizards8507]

I actually agree with most of Buster's last criticism. Rey is OP. I can accept that she has no powerful lineage OR that she's had no training, but not both. If what Kylo said about her parentage is true, then she is, in fact, a Mary Sue.

That said, I think people get carried away with the idea that Luke, Yoda, Anakin, and Sidious must be the most powerful Force-users of all time. I don't see any reason why that has to be the case.

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[IrishLion]

I realize Rey is OP, but I think it's a part of her character, specifically, and not just because they feel the need to elevate everyone's abilities because new trilogy, or because they need ways to get their main character out of trouble.

I think she's OP for a specific reason, aka she's the Chosen One.

 

[RDU Irish]

Seems to me they are illustrating the forc is there for everyone, not just one in a trillion if they are of the right bloodlines.

Prequels also powered up everyone over the original trilogy so I don’t see the problem there - to me shows resurgence of an almost lost art making for a natural arc.

 

[Cackalacky]

Like Palpatine in the original trilogy, I bet he gets a book series or a future film will fill us in.

Yep. Palpatine was a throw away until the Prequels. He had a grand total of 20 minutes of screen time

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Lol at people trying to disprove what's "possible" (expected) using (fictitious) "facts" from a fantasy world.

Would people be more "at peace" if they would have added a scene showing that Rey's midichlorian count was off the charts? (defending her natural abilities)

((do you see the ridiculousness here?)) lol

 

[Buster Bluth]

Yep. Palpatine was a throw away until the Prequels. He had a grand total of 20 minutes of screen time

That didn't matter. It's okay to have a mysterious background. Not every question needs to be answered.

The difference is that Snoke was inserted to the story after the Emperor, with literally zero explanation as to his background. "Snoke is Snoke, just go with it." He has Palpatine's guards 2.0, sits in a throne room 2.0, lords over Vader 2.0 and is in charge of Empire 2.0. It's 2.0 everything, and we don't know anything about him, because it's lazy. And Rain Johnson killed him off because he was a weak character to begin with IMO.

We have six movies of pre-Snoke universe, and them BLAM he's in charge and he's the most powerful and good luck beating him--oh wait nvrm he dead. He is essentially an episodic comic book villain...because Disney turned the story into Marvel.

Lol at people trying to disprove what's "possible" (expected) using (fictitious) "facts" from a fantasy world.

Would people be more "at peace" if they would have added a scene showing that Rey's midichlorian count was off the charts? (defending her natural abilities)

((do you see the ridiculousness here?)) lol

Why don't the Power Rangers join the show and really crank things up a notch?

Because it wouldn't make any sense, regardless of it being a fictional universe. Stories still have settings, and fictional universes still have assumed and insinuated laws. It doesn't mean directors can't expand on them, but when they add to them in a manner that doesn't mesh with the previous setting, it's a joke no matter how you slice it.

Honestly it felt like Rian Johnson didn't even watch TFA or watch the OT 1000x like he should have. The disconnects were that glaring. Luke Skywalker went from a trilogy based on redeeming someone who is 99% "dark side" because he senses that "there is still good in him" to a "hey let me kill my nephew before he's turns to a real baddie," despite showing us that he is much more conflicted than Vader ever was shown to be.

 

[gkIrish]

That didn't matter. It's okay to have a mysterious background. Not every question needs to be answered.

The difference is that Snoke was inserted to the story after the Emperor, with literally zero explanation as to his background. "Snoke is Snoke, just go with it." He has Palpatine's guards 2.0, sits in a throne room 2.0, lords over Vader 2.0 and is in charge of Empire 2.0. It's 2.0 everything, and we don't know anything about him, because it's lazy. And Rain Johnson killed him off because he was a weak character to begin with IMO.

We have six movies of pre-Snoke universe, and them BLAM he's in charge and he's the most powerful and good luck beating him--oh wait nvrm he dead. He is essentially an episodic comic book villain...because Disney turned the story into Marvel.



Why don't the Power Rangers join the show and really crank things up a notch?

Because it wouldn't make any sense, regardless of it being a fictional universe. Stories still have settings, and fictional universes still have assumed and insinuated laws. It doesn't mean directors can't expand on them, but when they add to them in a manner that doesn't mesh with the previous setting, it's a joke no matter how you slice it.

Honestly it felt like Rian Johnson didn't even watch TFA or watch the OT 1000x like he should have. The disconnects were that glaring. Luke Skywalker went from a trilogy based on redeeming someone who is 99% "dark side" because he senses that "there is still good in him" to a "hey let me kill my nephew before he's turns to a real baddie."

I didn't even think about this whole lack of a back story for why Luke went crazy. You're absolutely right. He went from seeing the iota of good in people to "having a moment of weakness" where almost killed his nephew. This implies Luke was already struggling with some serious shit before this moment. We get none of that. Now it's possible they do a side movie that explains this more but as it stands the audience has to just accept that Luke is a crazy hermit.

Again, I completely agree that it seems like Rian Johnson saw the OT once 15 years ago.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

That didn't matter. It's okay to have a mysterious background. Not every question needs to be answered.

The difference is that Snoke was inserted to the story after the Emperor, with literally zero explanation as to his background. Snoke is Snoke. He has Palpatine's guards 2.0, sits in a throne room 2.0, lords over Vader 2.0. It's 2.0 everything, because it's lazy.

We have six movies of pre-Snoke universe, and them BLAM he's in charge and he's the most powerful and good luck beating him--oh wait nvrm he dead. He is essentially an episodic comic book villain...because Disney turned the story into Marvel.



Why don't the Power Rangers join the show and really crank things up a notch?

Because it wouldn't make any sense, regardless of it being a fictional universe. Stories still have settings, and fictional universes still have assumed and insinuated laws. It doesn't mean directors can't expand on them, but when they add to them in a manner that doesn't mesh with the previous setting, it's a joke no matter how you slice it.

Honestly it felt like Rian Johnson didn't even watch TFA or watch the OT 1000x like he should have. The disconnects were that glaring. Luke Skywalker went from a trilogy based on redeeming someone who is 99% "dark side" because he senses that "there is still good in him" to a "hey let me kill my nephew before he's turns to a real baddie."

1) Nice straw man there. Great comparison. Power rangers = "natural powers"? (feel like Rey's situatuon is definitely believable, whether or not you like it)

2) Where in the OT does it say that you "can't" force push to float, for example? Nowhere, just because something is new, it doesn't mean it's wrong...it just means that you don't like it. You cannot "disprove it", you can simply dislike it.

3) Again, this is 30 years in the future (or however long). I took Luke's story to be, he went from a young, naive, "hopeful" jedi, to one that has grown angry, distrusting, etc...How is that "disprovable"? That is not only "believable", to me, it's good. How fitting that a young, hopeful Jedi, became the very man that he had to once convince himself (Obi-won)....Rian showed, again how powerful, hopeful people can wither over time and that sometimes it takes "new blood" to re-energize the cause.

If I have any complaints about Rian it's that his movie was "too close" to the OT. (but, not closely enough for me to dislike the film)

 

[Cackalacky]

That didn't matter. It's okay to have a mysterious background. Not every question needs to be answered.

The difference is that Snoke was inserted to the story after the Emperor, with literally zero explanation as to his background. "Snoke is Snoke, just go with it." He has Palpatine's guards 2.0, sits in a throne room 2.0, lords over Vader 2.0 and is in charge of Empire 2.0. It's 2.0 everything, and we don't know anything about him, because it's lazy. And Rain Johnson killed him off because he was a weak character to begin with IMO.

We have six movies of pre-Snoke universe, and them BLAM he's in charge and he's the most powerful and good luck beating him--oh wait nvrm he dead. He is essentially an episodic comic book villain...because Disney turned the story into Marvel.

We have as much knowledge of Snoke as we did about Palatine in the OT. and it wasnt BLAM he is in charge..... there was a 30 year gap in sthe story and we dont know what happened., and that is ok. it really is.....

Palpatine had one scene in ESB and 20 minutes in ROTJ. And guess what... literally no one hated ROTJ becasue they didnt flesh out Paplatine's character before hand, we just wer eprivy that someone was pulling the Empire's strings. Dime to a dollar we get more back story/info on Snoke later in a book or such. Or a animated series that takes place between Episode VI and VII. I dont think it is as lazy as you claim.

 

[Cackalacky]

I didn't even think about this whole lack of a back story for why Luke went crazy. You're absolutely right. He went from seeing the iota of good in people to "having a moment of weakness" where almost killed his nephew. This implies Luke was already struggling with some serious shit before this moment. We get none of that. Now it's possible they do a side movie that explains this more but as it stands the audience has to just accept that Luke is a crazy hermit.

Again, I completely agree that it seems like Rian Johnson saw the OT once 15 years ago.

Is that what you thought? I saw it as him being a failed master and he left in search of answers and exiled himself so he could not be sought out to teach anyone any more.

Recall Yoda and Luke's discussion about master/apprentice teachings.

 

[Buster Bluth]

How fitting that a young, hopeful Jedi, became the very man that he had to once convince himself (Obi-won)

I think you're looking for "Obi-Wan 2.0." (Well, really 3.0.)

Obi-Wan never successfully turned a Sith Lord away from the Dark Side before. Luke Skywalker did that, it's probably the biggest accomplishment in the history of the galaxy, beating the Empire and all. For him to renege on that legacy is a cheap plot trick IMO, and makes the OT worthless IMO.

Except it wasn't, the Empire 2.0 is right back and now Luke rotates to taking the role of Obi-Wan 2.0.

Different Snokes for different folks I guess.