Airstrikes

[irish1958]

In any military campaign, the question should be what the exit strategy is. So far, i haven't heard of one for the current military campaign.

All too often, the US goes in full bore, typically achieves everything militarily they want simply due to having superior capability, then turn to the politicians and ask "what's next?" And sadly, the politicians look at each other with these dumb looks on their faces because they haven't given that much thought.

That scenerio has played out for the last 13+ years. And it is playing out again in this case.

When George H Bust was criticized for not taking Bagdad and getting rid od Saddam, he replied that he knew how to get into Bagdad, but he had no idea on how to get out. Unfortunately his son was at a baseball game at the time and apparently did not hear him.

 

[kmoose]

In any military campaign, the question should be what the exit strategy is.

In traditional warfare, yes. In the war on terrorist organizations, instead of nations? Not so much. If these a$$holes are just a whisker away from being able to pull off a major terror attack, and we have the opportunity to take them out? Do it, and don't worry about "exit".

 

[T Town Tommy]

In traditional warfare, yes. In the war on terrorist organizations, instead of nations? Not so much. If these a$$holes are just a whisker away from being able to pull off a major terror attack, and we have the opportunity to take them out? Do it, and don't worry about "exit".

I agree 100%. But we have to know the end game as well.

ISIS represents a different threat than does an Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. But even taking on ISIS means we have to have a plan for Syria. What that is... I don't know.

But yes... bomb the terrorists to hell.

 

[Henges24]

Maybe I'm just bias, but why in the hell would anyone want to fvck with the US? You gon die, son.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So us leaving the Mid-East will bring stability to the region?

We cannot hope to impose stability from without on a region in which civilization has collapsed. Only the Arabs can save themselves.

 

[kmoose]

We cannot hope to impose stability from without on a region in which civilization has collapsed. Only the Arabs can save themselves.

I'm not saying that we will bring stability there. But I don't think that us leaving will bring about stability, either.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm not saying that we will bring stability there. But I don't think that us leaving will bring about stability, either.

Then how do we justify continuing to spend incredible amounts of blood and treasure on military adventures in the region? We've had an active military presence in the ME for the last 24 years... and what have we got to show for it?

 

[irishog77]

Then how do we justify continuing to spend incredible amounts of blood and treasure on military adventures in the region? We've had an active military presence in the ME for the last 24 years... and what have we got to show for it?

Kuwait is not only stable, but an ally. And we've had our strongest military presence in the region there for the last 24 years. Granted, that was a bit of a different animal to begin with. Does Kuwait = victory in the entire region? No. But some sort of victory(ies) are attainable in the region.

 

[kmoose]

Then how do we justify continuing to spend incredible amounts of blood and treasure on military adventures in the region? We've had an active military presence in the ME for the last 24 years... and what have we got to show for it?

The Russian flag is not flying over vast amounts of the area..........

 

[enrico514]

Then how do we justify continuing to spend incredible amounts of blood and treasure on military adventures in the region? We've had an active military presence in the ME for the last 24 years... and what have we got to show for it?

Oil & gas !

 

[greyhammer90]

Hey look everybody the Canadian wants us to attack the completely foreign non-threatening "threat" because they said mean things about his country this time.

(Not really attacking you but I've got some friends from Canada who have flip-flopped from "the United States should be isolationist, leave other countries alone, etc." to "attack them they're threatening us and they're evil" over the last 48 hours and I need to vent.)

Aaaaaand he neg repped me lol. I'll try not say anything negative about my Canadian friends in the future. So relax, eh?

 

[FLDomer]

Aaaaaand he neg repped me lol. I'll try not say anything negative about my Canadian friends in the future. So relax, eh?

Did you tell him you are "soary"?

 

[greyhammer90]

Did you tell him you are "soary"?

I might as well just forget "aboat" it.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

I'm interested in your solution to fighting ideology.

It's very difficult, I'd start with trying to kill religion as a whole. When people don't have fake gods to die for, then innocent people stop dying as well.

I'm not holding my breath that this will ever happen.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

It's very difficult, I'd start with trying to kill religion as a whole. When people don't have fake gods to die for, then innocent people stop dying as well.

I'm not holding my breath that this will ever happen.

You believe those pulling the strings are really doing it for religion ? I think it's more of a state/want-to-be state power grab. In other words it's about politics and territory. The same story repeated since organized civilizations began to pop up thousands of years ago.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

You believe those pulling the strings are really doing it for religion ? I think it's more of a state/want-to-be state power grab. In other words it's about politics and territory. The same story repeated since organized civilizations began to pop up thousands of years ago.

I do.

 

[DogDaysIrish]

I think downplaying the religion slant is dangerous at best. These groups know that at the end of the day, they don't have the resources to go tow to tow with the world powers. Their quest is to change the hearts and minds of the world through fear and ideological nonsense.

 

[Buster Bluth]

It's very difficult, I'd start with trying to kill religion as a whole. When people don't have fake gods to die for, then innocent people stop dying as well.

I'm not holding my breath that this will ever happen.

I was thinking earlier today about the juxtapositions of Saddam Hussein and Joseph Stalin, and how the communists in the Soviet Union loathed religion and, for a while, oppressed it. Can you imagine of Saddam Hussein practiced state atheism and today ~1/3 of the country was atheist? I don't think the region would know what to do with itself.

I do.

I don't think religion plays a large personal role for the leaders of these movements, it's merely the perfect tool for them to get the masses to impose their will. A lot of Muslim writers say that's the gist of it. I believe Reza Aslan (I'm a fan) talks about this often, that it's a political war using religious motivations.

I'm of the opinion that it's both, that Islam is both in a bit of a reformation and that the Middle East is literally in a reformation, tearing up the European-drawn map and changing boundaries to fit ethnic groups.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Unjust! Illegal! Immoral war! Everybody with me now...

 

[Irish#1]

I think you're underestimating how awful Saddam was. Sure their individual atrocities might be even, but the scale doesn't come close. ISIS might be genocidal, but any military worth a shit can handle them. Saddam had one of the largest militaries in the world, capable of going up against any power in the region except Israel, and operated a police state with dozens of torture centers for imposing his will on Iraq. And by torture I mean if you oppose him it's likely than they'd kidnap your family, gangrape your little girl in front of you, then you can watch her be slowly dissolved in acid...then they take their time on you. Shit like that was not uncommon.

I don't think ISIS is anywhere close to Saddam. Six months going around murdering thousands does not compare to three decades of Saddam. And ISIS' power projection capabilities do not come close to Saddam's either.

I understand what Saddam and his regime did and I don't disagree. My point is give ISIS time and the number of innocent people murdered will continue to rise and maybe rival what Saddam did.

I prefer airstrikes over ground forces as well. My preference is to wipe them out quickly and completely. Don't give them time to spread out and regroup later.

 

[NDdomer2]

I think I am pretty much in line with Buster's way of thinking on this. The level of fear mongering over this garbage is disgusting. As if the politicians and media want every child in 'murica laying awake at night thinking ISIS is outside their window or under their bed.

The more I look at it, the best response to 9/11 would have been paying all victim families $1 million each, rebuilding as fast as possible, shut down middle eastern visas and turning the other cheek. Less than $10 billion spent versus $1 trillion and counting. Thousands of military lives and limbs saved too.

Babies?!?! Hell my real dad called me yesterday for first time in months because of us bombing them. Wants me to buy some prepper basement and starting pulling my money out of bank. His mom called me asking if I thought she should take her money out of stock market.

Has there been any film of the air raid? I remember watching us lighting em up after 9/11.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

I was thinking earlier today about the juxtapositions of Saddam Hussein and Joseph Stalin, and how the communists in the Soviet Union loathed religion and, for a while, oppressed it. Can you imagine of Saddam Hussein practiced state atheism and today ~1/3 of the country was atheist? I don't think the region would know what to do with itself.



I don't think religion plays a large personal role for the leaders of these movements, it's merely the perfect tool for them to get the masses to impose their will. A lot of Muslim writers say that's the gist of it. I believe Reza Aslan (I'm a fan) talks about this often, that it's a political war using religious motivations.

I'm of the opinion that it's both, that Islam is both in a bit of a reformation and that the Middle East is literally in a reformation, tearing up the European-drawn map and changing boundaries to fit ethnic groups.

It's worth noting that, while the men you mentioned were certainly not champions of organized religion, they were also VERY irrational people. I don't think it's fair to assume that because they were against organized religion, the region would not have been better off for recognizing a false god.
Many people still beleive that religious conflict is caused by lack of education, poverty or by politics. I don't know where you stand in regards to religious belief, but I think you may be underestimating what it is like to be certain of paradise. Remember that the 9/11 hijackers were college educated, middle class people, with no discernable experience of political, social or economical oppression.They did, however, spend a large amount of time at their local mosque talking about the depravity of infadels and the pleasures that await marters in paradise.
How many more people must crash into buildings at 400 miles per hour or be murdered before we admit to ourselves that jihadist/Islamic violence is not a matter of education, poverty, politics or a struggle for power?

 

[Irish#1]

They're pretty much religious fanatics with a "my way or the highway" type of attitude and their highway is the highway of death.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

It's very difficult, I'd start with trying to kill religion as a whole. When people don't have fake gods to die for, then innocent people stop dying as well.

I'm not holding my breath that this will ever happen.

How would you do this? Oppressing the people who still believe? Hmm....I smell a new religion. The religion of the intolerant and totalitarian science regime. The vapid blacks will be the derided name whispered, and those who follow will be heard chanting "Progredi!"

If only everyone were as enlightened as you, we wouldn't have problems. People only die and fight because they believe in god. Bold, fresh assertion, that.

 

[Cackalacky]

People are animals.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

How would you do this? Oppressing the people who still believe? Hmm....I smell a new religion. The religion of the intolerant and totalitarian science regime. The vapid blacks will be the derided name whispered, and those who follow will be heard chanting "Progredi!"

If only everyone were as enlightened as you, we wouldn't have problems. People only die and fight because they believe in god. Bold, fresh assertion, that.

This is simply ridiculous.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

This is simply ridiculous.

Ha ha, only ridiculous because you are on the receiving end. Your statement quoted is ridiculous so I decided to flip the script.

 

[no.1IrishFan]

Flipped the script? Are you 15?

Where did I advocate for oppressing people?
How does anything I've said come across as an attempt to start some new religion?

 

[ginman]

US began air strikes on Isis in Syria.

Watching live video of Tomahawk missiles being launched off of ships is something else.

Reported right now that 5 Arab states are cooperating with the US in the strikes.

I think this is pretty stupid. Do we think there are no satellites or televisions in the middle east. Nothing like sending an announcement to the enemy, "Now is a good time to get away from any sites that might be targeted!"

 

[Buster Bluth]

People only die and fight because they believe in god.

You don't think religion is playing a huge part in ISIS' existence and growth?

Regardless of a particular religion being correct, the world history of religions is largely one of endless bloodshed.