2020-21 NFL Season

Blazers46

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Does New England win all of those Super Bowls with Drew Bledsoe? He retired in 2006. I don't think they come close with Damon Huard or Matt Cassell, that much is for damn sure.

Do they do it with Peyton Manning or Big Ben? I think so. Probably, yeah.

Brady's offensive accomplishments are what they are no matter how the defenses of those New England teams ranked. I am trying to think of which skill people he played with other than Randy Moss and Gronkowski will go to the Hall of Fame, and he had Moss for three years.
Tom Brady made a living out of quick hitters to 5ft tall white slot guys and dink and dunks out of the backfield. As a fantasy footballer you drafted any pass catching RB that played for the Patriots. You drafted his TEs and his slot guy, besides Moss which outside WR were fantasy players interested in? and if you are that guy drafting defenses you had NE very high on that list every year. With some teams the run sets up the pass but with the dink and dunks set up the few deep balls to whatever John Doe just happens to be on the outside or Gronk in the seam or middle.

Peyton Manning won a superbowl with Emmanuel Sanders being his guy. Peyton lost several playoff games with Marvin and Reggie.
 

Rogue219

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Tom Brady made a living out of quick hitters to 5ft tall white slot guys and dink and dunks out of the backfield. As a fantasy footballer you drafted any pass catching RB that played for the Patriots. You drafted his TEs and his slot guy, besides Moss which outside WR were fantasy players interested in? and if you are that guy drafting defenses you had NE very high on that list every year. With some teams the run sets up the pass but with the dink and dunks set up the few deep balls to whatever John Doe just happens to be on the outside or Gronk in the seam or middle.

Peyton Manning won a superbowl with Emmanuel Sanders being his guy. Peyton lost several playoff games with Marvin and Reggie.
Full disclosure, I don't care about fantasy football.

Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl with Emmanuel Sanders and the fourth best defense in all of football that year, if we're talking about Top Defenses. He lost several playoff games with Marvin and Reggie to....Tom Brady?

Not a Tom Brady fan, but if I'm picking THE guy, he's my guy. I can put my bias aside.
 

Blazers46

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Full disclosure, I don't care about fantasy football.

Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl with Emmanuel Sanders and the fourth best defense in all of football that year, if we're talking about Top Defenses. He lost several playoff games with Marvin and Reggie to....Tom Brady?

Not a Tom Brady fan, but if I'm picking THE guy, he's my guy. I can put my bias aside.

You caring about fantasy football has nothing to do with anything. I was using fantasy football as a reference to say your common fantasy player knows you don't draft Bradys outside guys but you do his pass catching RB, TE, and Slot as well as his Defense. Fantasy sports is an outcome driven game isolating player from team (for the most part).

Peyton lost those games against Tom Brady but they are never on the field together. I will take Tom Brady v Indys defense over Peyton Manning v the Patriots Defense every day of the week. But that does not mean I would take Brady over Manning in a head to head against the same defense. Tom Brady would not have all those rings if he rolled out with a Colts, Packers, Saints or really any other defense besides the Patriots defense. Tom Brady has had the benefit of so many Top 10 and even Top 5 defenses for that long that no other QB will probably ever be able to have ever again. You can include his time with the Bucs as an extension of that. Its probably one of the most craziest stats ever if you really sat down and looked at it.
 

Rogue219

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You caring about fantasy football has nothing to do with anything. I was using fantasy football as a reference to say your common fantasy player knows you don't draft Bradys outside guys but you do his pass catching RB, TE, and Slot as well as his Defense. Fantasy sports is an outcome driven game isolating player from team (for the most part).

Peyton lost those games against Tom Brady but they are never on the field together. I will take Tom Brady v Indys defense over Peyton Manning v the Patriots Defense every day of the week. But that does not mean I would take Brady over Manning in a head to head against the same defense. Tom Brady would not have all those rings if he rolled out with a Colts, Packers, Saints or really any other defense besides the Patriots defense. Tom Brady has had the benefit of so many Top 10 and even Top 5 defenses for that long that no other QB will probably ever be able to have ever again. You can include his time with the Bucs as an extension of that. Its probably one of the most craziest stats ever if you really sat down and looked at it.
The worst defense Montana had with Frisco in the 80s was rated 8th in the NFL in one season. Otherwise they were typically top 3-5 during that run. The 1989 49ers led the league in offense that year, scoring almost 28 points every week. The defense? Third in the NFL, allowing less than 16 points per game. He was the standard for a long time up until Brady came along. Montana didn't have to overcome bad or even average defenses in his era.

Montana's weapons offensively or the defensive prowess of those 1980s 49ers teams do nothing to diminish his career for me. Same with Brady.

It's just a bad argument that because you played on teams with good defenses your offensive accomplishments within the team are somehow negated or have less value. Bledsoe maybe gets them a couple of Super Bowls. Apart from that, you couldn't put an NFL replacement level starter on any of those Patriots teams and definitively say they'd be champions. Most likely they wouldn't be.
 

greyhammer90

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Incredible anyone is still debating that Brady isn’t the GOAT. That debate has been over for a long time.

Do you mean QB GOAT or GOAT GOAT? Jerry Rice exists. Just because Brady has had the best overall QB career doesn't automatically mean he's the GOAT without looking into the numbers of other positions.
 

NorthDakota

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Homeboy has a great resume. Tough to knock him. I spent years and years hating him.
 

Blazers46

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Do you mean QB GOAT or GOAT GOAT? Jerry Rice exists. Just because Brady has had the best overall QB career doesn't automatically mean he's the GOAT without looking into the numbers of other positions.
Beat QB career you can’t argue with. Doesn’t make him the GOAT.
 

Irishbounty28

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One of the arguments above is that Brady utilized possession receivers(TE's/RB's etc.), but benefited greatly from outstanding defenses. Keeping possession of the ball limits the opportunities the other team has to score, thus the Patriot defense benefited greatly from the style of football Brady and the offense played. Additionally, there aren't many teams that have been successful without having a good offense and defense. You could argue Manning and a few others are more talented than Brady, but the results on the field are all that matter, and they speak for themselves.
 

Blazers46

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One of the arguments above is that Brady utilized possession receivers(TE's/RB's etc.), but benefited greatly from outstanding defenses. Keeping possession of the ball limits the opportunities the other team has to score, thus the Patriot defense benefited greatly from the style of football Brady and the offense played. Additionally, there aren't many teams that have been successful without having a good offense and defense. You could argue Manning and a few others are more talented than Brady, but the results on the field are all that matter, and they speak for themselves.

Because I am bored I got all stat geek and worked this top 10 list based on Time of Possession and where they ended in defensive ranking.

TOP
2021
1. Green Bay - 14th in Defense
2. Tennessee - 6th in defense
3. Baltimore - 19th in defense
4. Indy - 9th in Defense
5. Buffalo - 1st in Defense
6. Arizona - 11th in Defense
7. KC - 8th in defense
8. Denver - 3rd in Defense
9. Cleveland - 13th in Defense
10. Washington - 24th in Defense
18. Bucs - 5th in Defense

2020
1. Green Bay - 13thth in defense
2. NO - 5th in Defense
3. Baltimore - 2nd in Defense
4. Chargers - 23rd in Defense
5. Rams - 1st in Defense
6. 49ers - 17th in defense
7. Dolphins - 6th in defense
8. Indy - 10th in defense
9. Carolina - 17th in defense
10. Pittsburg - 3rd in defense
21 Bucs - 8th in defense

2019
1. Baltimore - 3rd
2. Philly - 15th
3. NO - 13th
4. New England - 1st in defense
5. 49ers - 8th in defense
6. Packers - 9th in defense
7. Las Vegas - 24th in d
8. Atlanta - 22nd
9. Tampa - 28th
10. Seattle - 21st


As you can see TOP probably is not a good predictor for top defenses, it helps probably but the numbers are all over the place. And then looking at the QBs for some of these teams its hard to say some of these QBs willed their awesomeness and it translated to defensive success.
 

Irishbounty28

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Because I am bored I got all stat geek and worked this top 10 list based on Time of Possession and where they ended in defensive ranking.

TOP
2021
1. Green Bay - 14th in Defense
2. Tennessee - 6th in defense
3. Baltimore - 19th in defense
4. Indy - 9th in Defense
5. Buffalo - 1st in Defense
6. Arizona - 11th in Defense
7. KC - 8th in defense
8. Denver - 3rd in Defense
9. Cleveland - 13th in Defense
10. Washington - 24th in Defense
18. Bucs - 5th in Defense

2020
1. Green Bay - 13thth in defense
2. NO - 5th in Defense
3. Baltimore - 2nd in Defense
4. Chargers - 23rd in Defense
5. Rams - 1st in Defense
6. 49ers - 17th in defense
7. Dolphins - 6th in defense
8. Indy - 10th in defense
9. Carolina - 17th in defense
10. Pittsburg - 3rd in defense
21 Bucs - 8th in defense

2019
1. Baltimore - 3rd
2. Philly - 15th
3. NO - 13th
4. New England - 1st in defense
5. 49ers - 8th in defense
6. Packers - 9th in defense
7. Las Vegas - 24th in d
8. Atlanta - 22nd
9. Tampa - 28th
10. Seattle - 21st


As you can see TOP probably is not a good predictor for top defenses, it helps probably but the numbers are all over the place. And then looking at the QBs for some of these teams its hard to say some of these QBs willed their awesomeness and it translated to defensive success.
Can you do one that shows where defenses would rank without the offensive Time of possession being a factor? Or is it possible the contribution to defensive success isn’t easily measured?

Do those statistics take into account scoring drives? Length of drive? Or just basic Time of Possession?
 

Blazers46

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The worst defense Montana had with Frisco in the 80s was rated 8th in the NFL in one season. Otherwise they were typically top 3-5 during that run. The 1989 49ers led the league in offense that year, scoring almost 28 points every week. The defense? Third in the NFL, allowing less than 16 points per game. He was the standard for a long time up until Brady came along. Montana didn't have to overcome bad or even average defenses in his era.

Montana's weapons offensively or the defensive prowess of those 1980s 49ers teams do nothing to diminish his career for me. Same with Brady.

It's just a bad argument that because you played on teams with good defenses your offensive accomplishments within the team are somehow negated or have less value. Bledsoe maybe gets them a couple of Super Bowls. Apart from that, you couldn't put an NFL replacement level starter on any of those Patriots teams and definitively say they'd be champions. Most likely they wouldn't be.

Nobody is knocking offensive accomplishments. Tom has been the yardage leader 2 or 3 times and the TD leader 2-3 times. If we just going on stats and offensive accomplishments Drew Brees has led the league in all those categories a staggering amount of times more than Brady. Even Manning would have something to say in regard to stats.

Here is another stat geek moment. I took the averages per 16 games (not per season because that would be unfair to TB12).

Tom Brady average per 16 games
4,252 Yards
31.39 TDs
10.21 INTs

Peyton
4,327 Yards
32.42 TDS
15 Ints

DB
4,481 Yards
31.84 TDS
13.55 INTS
 

Blazers46

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Can you do one that shows where defenses would rank without the offensive Time of possession being a factor? Or is it possible the contribution to defensive success isn’t easily measured?

Do those statistics take into account scoring drives? Length of drive? Or just basic Time of Possession?
That would take me all night and probably into next week.
 

Blazers46

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Here is another stat just using Tom, Peyton and Drew. Over their careers, this is their points their teams have allowed. I took out Peytons missed season and TBs missed season when he went out week 1.

Tom Brady - 18.65 pts against
Peyton Manning - 21.28
Drew Brees - 23.01

Tom Brady in NE - 18.33
Peyton in Indy - 21.4

Also keep in mind Peyton started earlier when scores were lower. In 1998 teams averaged about 20 per game. Now they average around 25 per game. So Peytons defenses are weighed down and Toms up a little. Tom Brady has only been on a team that gave up more than 20 points 8 times, 2 of those have been in the last two seasons but still enough for a top 10 defense both years. This years Bucs were 5th giving up 20.8 per. In Contrast Peytons Colts gave up 20.8 in 1999 that was good enough for 17th.

Toms best Defense only gave up 14.1 in 2009 and worst was 22.2 in 2021 but that was still good enough for top 8 in the league.

Peytons best D was 15.4 and 16.4 winning a superbowl with one of those, his worst was 30.4 the same year TB12 won his first ring with his team D giving up 17 per game.

Brees has just had awful defenses.
 
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IrishLax

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The greatest untapped coaching potential is currently nerds and women. You can't tell me that in the hundred million women out there in the United States or genius think tank nerds who haven't played a down of football there isn't someone who can't call plays or strategize better than Steve Sarkisian or Mike Yurich.

I firmly believe that the future of football is having great teachers (often guys who played the position at a high level) for position coaches + great organizers/motivators/visionaries for the HC + nerds (or a figurehead supported by nerds + AI) as the coordinators. Every staff should have as many offensive analysts as they can afford.

Here is my more woke take: the main reason that there are issues with minority hires in the NFL is that the most common path to HC is QB coach -> OC -> HC. There are fewer black QB coaches than any other position. This makes it harder for them to become OCs, which in turn makes it harder for them to become HCs. It's a downstream issue that isn't correctable without either changing the pool of candidates or changing the overall hiring process to emphasize something other than offensive coordinator types. Part of the problem with the pool of candidates is the fact that QB is still the most white position in football, but the other part is flat out nepotism and racism. There are a lot of connected white people who get an "analyst" job because of who they know or who their dad knows, and in many cases there is not the same entry level opportunities for black ex-players starting out.
 

Rogue219

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The greatest untapped coaching potential is currently nerds and women. You can't tell me that in the hundred million women out there in the United States or genius think tank nerds who haven't played a down of football there isn't someone who can't call plays or strategize better than Steve Sarkisian or Mike Yurich.

I firmly believe that the future of football is having great teachers (often guys who played the position at a high level) for position coaches + great organizers/motivators/visionaries for the HC + nerds (or a figurehead supported by nerds + AI) as the coordinators. Every staff should have as many offensive analysts as they can afford.

Here is my more woke take: the main reason that there are issues with minority hires in the NFL is that the most common path to HC is QB coach -> OC -> HC. There are fewer black QB coaches than any other position. This makes it harder for them to become OCs, which in turn makes it harder for them to become HCs. It's a downstream issue that isn't correctable without either changing the pool of candidates or changing the overall hiring process to emphasize something other than offensive coordinator types. Part of the problem with the pool of candidates is the fact that QB is still the most white position in football, but the other part is flat out nepotism and racism. There are a lot of connected white people who get an "analyst" job because of who they know or who their dad knows, and in many cases there is not the same entry level opportunities for black ex-players starting out.
Hang this post in the Louvre.
 

Blazers46

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The greatest untapped coaching potential is currently nerds and women. You can't tell me that in the hundred million women out there in the United States or genius think tank nerds who haven't played a down of football there isn't someone who can't call plays or strategize better than Steve Sarkisian or Mike Yurich.

I firmly believe that the future of football is having great teachers (often guys who played the position at a high level) for position coaches + great organizers/motivators/visionaries for the HC + nerds (or a figurehead supported by nerds + AI) as the coordinators. Every staff should have as many offensive analysts as they can afford.

Here is my more woke take: the main reason that there are issues with minority hires in the NFL is that the most common path to HC is QB coach -> OC -> HC. There are fewer black QB coaches than any other position. This makes it harder for them to become OCs, which in turn makes it harder for them to become HCs. It's a downstream issue that isn't correctable without either changing the pool of candidates or changing the overall hiring process to emphasize something other than offensive coordinator types. Part of the problem with the pool of candidates is the fact that QB is still the most white position in football, but the other part is flat out nepotism and racism. There are a lot of connected white people who get an "analyst" job because of who they know or who their dad knows, and in many cases there is not the same entry level opportunities for black ex-players starting out.
Woke indeed.

Maybe the NFL should fully resemble the United States. Mandate a 76.3% white workforce. 13.4 black and 50.8 women.
 

ACamp1900

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It’s such a copycat league,… remember after Seattle won everyone tried a bigger than normal Dbackfield mimicking the legion of boom??? If some random woman wins a super bowl probably half the coaches in the league would be female by like next Tuesday,… it’ll be interesting. The OC thing mentioned above is a more subtle example as well
 

Blazers46

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It’s such a copycat league,… remember after Seattle won everyone tried a bigger than normal Dbackfield mimicking the legion of boom??? If some random woman wins a super bowl probably half the coaches in the league would be female by like next Tuesday,… it’ll be interesting. The OC thing mentioned above is a more subtle example as well
You're assuming franchises try to follow models that work, all this time we thought they were racist/sexist.

When the whole league hires 32 white women, 1 per team, there will be hell to pay.
 

ACamp1900

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NFL approves OT rules tweak for playoffs only

New playoff overtime rules. I think the should changes the rules for both regular season and playoffs so they are the all the time.
Agreed. You watch something play out badly for some team because of this in the playoffs. Everyone will be back to square one with the whining and pearl clutching,… my priority would be trying to avoid that, not leave the door wide open for it
 

irishog77

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Shouldn't the more telling stat of the amount of minorities in coaching actually be how many minorities are actually in coaching? People keep throwing out the percentage of players compared to percentage of coaches. I have no idea what the number of minorities in coaching is. But to a certain extent, the number of minorities playing is irrelevant compared to the number of minorities coaching.

Yes, I understand that coaching ranks are usually filled with former players. That's true for any sport (and any profession, really). But before we lament the number of minorities in coaching, shouldn't we actually know how many are available to begin with?

25 years ago, Joe Morgan began lamenting the shrinking number of blacks in baseball. After people were quick to cry "racism," we then began to learn that simply fewer blacks were playing baseball, period. It's tough to fill your roster with people that aren't actually available, especially in a profession that, by and large, is 100% meritorious.
 

GATTACA!

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What about PTO? You're telling me Tom Brady has worked like 21 years like a slave and he has not been able to take time off for mental health?
Idk what PTO means, but I do think the NFL is sexist/homophobic/xenophobic for not having a PTO head coach already.
 

Blazers46

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Shouldn't the more telling stat of the amount of minorities in coaching actually be how many minorities are actually in coaching? People keep throwing out the percentage of players compared to percentage of coaches. I have no idea what the number of minorities in coaching is. But to a certain extent, the number of minorities playing is irrelevant compared to the number of minorities coaching.

Yes, I understand that coaching ranks are usually filled with former players. That's true for any sport (and any profession, really). But before we lament the number of minorities in coaching, shouldn't we actually know how many are available to begin with?

25 years ago, Joe Morgan began lamenting the shrinking number of blacks in baseball. After people were quick to cry "racism," we then began to learn that simply fewer blacks were playing baseball, period. It's tough to fill your roster with people that aren't actually available, especially in a profession that, by and large, is 100% meritorious.
I cringe at any minority mandate. The moment your force someone on someone or something its sets up a very uncomfortable situation. They themselves know they are the quota and everyone else knows they are the quota. I have been in those situations sort of on the inside. Its sort of like when the President gives himself a mandate that he is going to hire a black women or gay person for whatever position, they open themselves up doubt or scrutiny. I have seen the "token" feel like they are the untouchable and I have seen them also crumble either being not qualified or doubting themselves. Mistakes are magnified. Also I think its more demeaning being the token minority than not being chosen. I would be hard pressed to be that person. A lot of minorities probably feel a little awkward knowing they could be the minority interview but this is different. Its a forced hire, I would not want to be that token hire and I am confused why any self respecting person would want to be. But then again I am white and have never had an issue getting a job.
 
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