2018 Spring Roster

[IrishLax]

woa... when was i warned. if i was warned and i missed it, sorry. i prefaced it by saying i don't have a clue. and why is transfer speculation bad? it's not like i'm speculating about grades or rumored behavior. I'm not saying anyone is or should be forced out.

I did soft-delete the post where I said not to do it, so my bad if that was too quick and you missed it.

It's a longstanding rule here from when shit used to go haywire with people spreading false rumors and having parents/players reading this board. In general, rumor mongering about currently enrolled students leaving for whatever reason isn't acceptable here unless it's rooted in something. For example, with Alize missing the bowl game, one could speculate about his future.

But taking guys that are just bad or buried on the depth chart and going "I wonder if he'll be off the team" often leads to a dark place. And most boards don't tolerate this kind of thing for the same reason, this isn't really an IE thing.

 

[snoopdog]

OK so then I disagree completely with your opinion. McKinley has shown absolutely nothing and has been completely buried on the depth chart... and he's an NFL WR? Based on what?

Claypool has the traits, and could develop to the point of being an NFL WR. Boykin has one game of merit to his resume, and if he were in the draft this year he would certianly not get drafted.

Yes, QB needs to be better. No, the WR position is not fine.

I agree we disagree, but we disagree on different things

I think that if Mayfield was the Irish qb last, even with ESB leaving, everyone on here would be raving about the strength of the WR position this year.

And I also think that no matter what team BW qb’d last year, the consensus would be that their wr’s were mediocre at best.

BW was basically the worst throwing QB in the P5 last year, so concerns about our WR’s are valid in the sense nobody really knows what you have. But the regression in ESB’s production from Kizer to BW was significant despite him having a full year of Balis

 

[Irish YJ]

I did soft-delete the post where I said not to do it, so my bad if that was too quick and you missed it.

It's a longstanding rule here from when shit used to go haywire with people spreading false rumors and having parents/players reading this board. In general, rumor mongering about currently enrolled students leaving for whatever reason isn't acceptable here unless it's rooted in something. For example, with Alize missing the bowl game, one could speculate about his future.

But taking guys that are just bad or buried on the depth chart and going "I wonder if he'll be off the team" often leads to a dark place. And most boards don't tolerate this kind of thing for the same reason, this isn't really an IE thing.

I did miss it. No worries. I try to follow the rules, so my bad.

Rules are rules (so I get it going forward), but I do disagree as I don't see depth chart speculation a big deal. Depth chart speculation happens in a ton of threads, so I'm not sure why it's out of bounds when discussing roster numbers. It's not starting rumors. I don't claim to know anything about anyone wanting to leave nor did I suggest that any player was not making grades or screwing up...., which i why I asked if anyone had a clue. I don't think depth chart speculation is near as bad or to the level as bashing player performance (from a parent point of view) which happens all season long on IE. ND to my knowledge doesn't force players out. They may not invite back a 5th year (which there is usually speculation about on this board), but that's about as bad as it gets. When players leave, they either screw up or make a choice to leave. Aside from Weishar (which I said I hoped didn't leave), IIRC the players I mentioned have no on-field performance to judge. For all I know they could be rock stars in the making.... which I was hoping to get feedback on if someone knew. Anyway,that's my opinion, but I got it, and moving on.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I agree we disagree, but we disagree on different things

I think that if Mayfield was the Irish qb last, even with ESB leaving, everyone on here would be raving about the strength of the WR position this year.

And I also think that no matter what team BW qb’d last year, the consensus would be that their wr’s were mediocre at best.

BW was basically the worst throwing QB in the P5 last year, so concerns about our WR’s are valid in the sense nobody really knows what you have. But the regression in ESB’s production from Kizer to BW was significant despite him having a full year of Balis

Perfectly stated. That's how I feel as well. Sure, we are losing two big WRs (ESB and Stepherson) but have no idea how good our players can be.

We already have two players who have shown the ability to compete at a high level and we have a few who have caught passes for us.

It is a question mark but no more than QB, TBH. We still don't know what we have. RB is almost as big of a question mark. What kind of runner is TJ Jr? Can Dex take the #1 spot and keep it? Who will be their backup? Jahmir?

Who the hell starts on the OL and at what positions?

Very happy with the talent we have on this roster, feels like it's the most complete I've seen in a long time. You don't need NFL talent at 90% of your positions but you do need consistent, steady performers and everyone being dialed into the game plan. (with a few NFL prospects littered throughout).

 

[IrishLax]

I agree we disagree, but we disagree on different things

I think that if Mayfield was the Irish qb last, even with ESB leaving, everyone on here would be raving about the strength of the WR position this year.

And I also think that no matter what team BW qb’d last year, the consensus would be that their wr’s were mediocre at best.

BW was basically the worst throwing QB in the P5 last year, so concerns about our WR’s are valid in the sense nobody really knows what you have. But the regression in ESB’s production from Kizer to BW was significant despite him having a full year of Balis

This is obviously untrue. Everyone on here talked about Stepherson being a very good WR. Everyone on here talked about ESB getting drafted. That's with Wimbush getting them the ball all last year. So obviously, people can separate bad WR play from bad QB play.

Brandon Wimbush being bad at throwing has no bearing on WRs running bad routes, dropping passes, lacking explosive traits, etc. We saw how much they struggled as a position group in the beginning of the season without Stepherson. And then once Stepherson came back, everyone said "wow look how much better he is." We're counting on guys who couldn't beat out Cam Smith and Freddy Canteen to now be every down starters. Claypool has the traits, Boykin had a good bowl game, and Michael Young could develop. It's not a lost cause, but any narrative that acts like we have a bunch of talent at WR is nonsensical.

WR and S are the weakest position groups on the team and it's not really close. S gets an obvious upgrade in talent/experience over last year. WR lost its two best players.

 

[stlnd01]

This is obviously untrue. Everyone on here talked about Stepherson being a very good WR. Everyone on here talked about ESB getting drafted. That's with Wimbush getting them the ball all last year. So obviously, people can separate bad WR play from bad QB play.

Brandon Wimbush being bad at throwing has no bearing on WRs running bad routes, dropping passes, lacking explosive traits, etc. We saw how much they struggled as a position group in the beginning of the season without Stepherson. And then once Stepherson came back, everyone said "wow look how much better he is." We're counting on guys who couldn't beat out Cam Smith and Freddy Canteen to now be every down starters. Claypool has the traits, Boykin had a good bowl game, and Michael Young could develop. It's not a lost cause, but any narrative that acts like we have a bunch of talent at WR is nonsensical.

WR and S are the weakest position groups on the team and it's not really close. S gets an obvious upgrade in talent/experience over last year. WR lost its two best players.

I don't think anyone's saying we have "a bunch of talent." We're not going to run the 2009 WR corps with Tate, Floyd and Kyle Rudolph out there. We probably don't have anyone as naturally gifted as ESB on the roster for 2018.
But WR is the closest thing on the field to a plug and play position. You don't have to be a stud to be a productive weapon. Look how far running good routes and making basic catches has taken TJ Jones, for instance. So if some combo of Claypool, Boykin, Young, Canteen, McKinley and the various freshmen can get where they need to be on the field and hang on to the ball, we'll be fine. The bigger question, in my mind, is whether we have a QB who can deliver them the ball.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I don't think anyone's saying we have "a bunch of talent." We're not going to run the 2009 WR corps with Tate, Floyd and Kyle Rudolph out there. We probably don't have anyone as naturally gifted as ESB on the roster for 2018.
But WR is the closest thing on the field to a plug and play position. You don't have to be a stud to be a productive weapon. Look how far running good routes and making basic catches has taken TJ Jones, for instance. So if some combo of Claypool, Boykin, Young, Canteen, McKinley and the various freshmen can get where they need to be on the field and hang on to the ball, we'll be fine. The bigger question, in my mind, is whether we have a QB who can deliver them the ball.

This is where I am too.

But I also think coaches make mistakes, and playing Cam Smith so much was one of them.

I also think Claypool year 3 will be really good. And I like our TEs.

 

[snoopdog]

This is obviously untrue. Everyone on here talked about Stepherson being a very good WR. Everyone on here talked about ESB getting drafted. That's with Wimbush getting them the ball all last year. So obviously, people can separate bad WR play from bad QB play.

Brandon Wimbush being bad at throwing has no bearing on WRs running bad routes, dropping passes, lacking explosive traits, etc. We saw how much they struggled as a position group in the beginning of the season without Stepherson. And then once Stepherson came back, everyone said "wow look how much better he is." We're counting on guys who couldn't beat out Cam Smith and Freddy Canteen to now be every down starters. Claypool has the traits, Boykin had a good bowl game, and Michael Young could develop. It's not a lost cause, but any narrative that acts like we have a bunch of talent at WR is nonsensical.

WR and S are the weakest position groups on the team and it's not really close. S gets an obvious upgrade in talent/experience over last year. WR lost its two best players.

Not to be argumentative, but by the time Stepherson came back, everyone knew that BW couldn’t throw the ball. And in all the games Stepherson did play in he only caught 19 balls.

No receiver can be considered very good, catching only 19 passes on a balanced offence.

Same with ESB, he will probably be the highest drafted receiver with his woeful production in a long time.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't think anyone's saying we have "a bunch of talent." We're not going to run the 2009 WR corps with Tate, Floyd and Kyle Rudolph out there. We probably don't have anyone as naturally gifted as ESB on the roster for 2018.
But WR is the closest thing on the field to a plug and play position. You don't have to be a stud to be a productive weapon. Look how far running good routes and making basic catches has taken TJ Jones, for instance. So if some combo of Claypool, Boykin, Young, Canteen, McKinley and the various freshmen can get where they need to be on the field and hang on to the ball, we'll be fine. The bigger question, in my mind, is whether we have a QB who can deliver them the ball.

Would you agree that this is the least proven/talented group of returning WRs we've had in the Kelly era? Looking at the guys we've run out there from '10 until now it sure seems like it.

I think WR can be good as long as Claypool becomes more consistent, Boykin continues his progression, and you get someone like Kevin Austin, Michael Young, etc. to step up. I'm not saying the position group can't be good, just that it's got the least proven talent of any group on the roster and the scariest if there's an unfortunate injury or a regression.

 

[IrishLax]

Not to be argumentative, but by the time Stepherson came back, everyone knew that BW couldn’t throw the ball. And in all the games Stepherson did play in he only caught 19 balls.

No receiver can be considered very good, catching only 19 passes on a balanced offence.

Same with ESB, he will probably be the highest drafted receiver with his woeful production in a long time.

Right, but that's not the point. Your whole statement was that it was difficult to evaluate WR talent because of bad QB play. And that's not true. It was clear to everyone that Stepherson was very good and much better than who he replaced despite only catching a handful of passes because the QB play was bad.

The point is that it's not hard to look at routes, separation, and drops on catchable balls. Those things are independent of QB play. There is a ton of film of the guys behind ESB/Stepherson not playing at a high level. There's not much film on Boykin, because these other guys... who were playing poorly... were playing over him. Maybe that just means the coaches are dumb, but regardless there is very little tape that shows a reason to be optimistic on anyone but Claypool.

 

[stlnd01]

Would you agree that this is the least proven/talented group of returning WRs we've had in the Kelly era? Looking at the guys we've run out there from '10 until now it sure seems like it.

I think WR can be good as long as Claypool becomes more consistent, Boykin continues his progression, and you get someone like Kevin Austin, Michael Young, etc. to step up. I'm not saying the position group can't be good, just that it's got the least proven talent of any group on the roster and the scariest if there's an unfortunate injury or a regression.

Oh, I generally agree. We have one returning WR who played significant minutes - plus Boykin and Finke and a bunch of question marks. So, yeah, probably our least proven group of WRs under Kelly. But the flip side of that is we don't really know what we have.

For instance, Javon McKinley is still sitting around. One of the highest-rated WR recruits Kelly has landed. No idea why he's never played, but now is certainly his time. Michael Young *could* be another Stepherson. Claypool (who's still learning the game) and Boykin can take the next step to become front-line, NFL-caliber, receivers, and Austin and Lenzy could walk in and contribute right away. In which case we're in great shape.

Or Claypool gets hurt. Boykin and Young turn out meh. McKinley transfers. And Chris Finke gets decapitated on a bad throw from Wimbush. If that happens maybe I'll dust off my cleats and live out my dream of playing WR for Notre Dame.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Would you agree that this is the least proven/talented group of returning WRs we've had in the Kelly era? Looking at the guys we've run out there from '10 until now it sure seems like it.

I think WR can be good as long as Claypool becomes more consistent, Boykin continues his progression, and you get someone like Kevin Austin, Michael Young, etc. to step up. I'm not saying the position group can't be good, just that it's got the least proven talent of any group on the roster and the scariest if there's an unfortunate injury or a regression.

I agree it's the least proven group but not the least talented. I think we have a ton of athleticism on the roster, we just need to find someone to play.

 

[EvilleIrish]

With us being at 89 scholarship players, have we now started the practice of oversigning? Curious to hear thoughts.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

With us being at 89 scholarship players, have we now started the practice of oversigning? Curious to hear thoughts.

The coaches already know of transfers coming down the line/Medicals and they always have the 5th years to choose between.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Would you agree that this is the least proven/talented group of returning WRs we've had in the Kelly era? Looking at the guys we've run out there from '10 until now it sure seems like it.

Actually, I don't think so. Going into 2012, things looked pretty bad if you leave out TEs. Not only was there no proven production, but there was very little depth and the talent was young.

Experience:
1) TJ Jones, Jr. (5'11", skinny, 38 catches and 366 yards, 3 TDs in 2011 -- decent #2, but seemed questionable as number 1 with that build and skill set)
2) Robby Toma (tiny, played b/c of injuries, caught 19 balls for 207 yards and 1 TD in 2011)
3) John Goodman (had done close to nothing first three years -seven passes for 65 yards)
4) Daniel Smith (Played 2 games in 2011)

Red-shirts and freshman
1) Davaris Daniels (red shirt raised some eyebrows)
2) Davonte Neal(5'9" 5-star freshman)
3) Chris Brown (3-star freshman)

So comparing my confidence going in...

2012 vs. 2018

TJ Jones, Jr. vs. Chase Claypool - WASH. Numbers are similar. Jones had made some good catches. And we know in hindsight that he became Mr. Consistency (which has been a tendency in Kelly era). But he was not there yet. Claypool has FAR more talent, but is currently inconsistent. This is a good football player who looked like he had an obvious ceiling vs. a more raw player with incredible upside.

Robby Toma vs. Michael Young - 2018. Toma was tiny, but had great hands (he also had a good 40 yd, which was somewhat surprising). Young is bigger, and seems more talented, meaner, quicker, and just as fearless. Toma had some clutch catches, and was important on the 2012 campaign, but there was nothing about him that screamed irreplaceable at that time at all.

Goodman/Smith vs. Finke/Boykin/Canteen - 2018 (obvious) - Goodman and Smith were kind of big and not that fast. Goodman had pretty good hands but was not that strong. Smith was pretty strong but had not that good hands. Finke is proven production and can actually make plays. He is currently the best pure WR of the bunch easily, although he is not a great blocker. Boykin has all the good qualities of Goodman and Smith, but with more upside. Canteen seems like a practice squad guy, but may have wheels when healthy.

Davaris Daniels vs. Armstrong/McKinnley/Jones- 2012. I was definitively more excited about Daniels than I was about either of these guys, and the excitement was warranted when he was healthy. But Daniels and McKinnley had similar projections from recruiting services, Armstrong is built like an NFL player, there are three of them, and DD was always a question mark off-the-field.

Neal vs. Austin. WASH (lean 2018). Neal was dynamic, but had already shown himself to be super high-maintenance, and was pretty darn small. He was a slot/returner. We thought he was finally going to be that ultra-productive slot guy that Kelly had at UC, but that never happened at ND. Austin seems college ready, has a complete skill set, and has his head screwed on straight. Personally, I'd rather have a freshman like Austin, than a freshman like Neal as an every down WR.

Brown vs. Lenzy/Keys - 2018 (obvious). Brown was a speed guy, but Lenzy is faster and more dynamic. Austin is also probably just as fast, and seems more skilled and more prepared. There are also two of them. Brown had a great play in 2012 and a good senior season. Hat tip.

Projected starters - 2012 (not as obvious at the time -- we know Jones developed and Daniels lived up to his billing when healthy and engaged, but we have no idea how McKinnley, Armstrong, and Austin will turn out)
Jones
Daniels
Toma/Neal

vs.

Claypool
Young
Finke/Boykin/Armstrong/McKinnly/Boykin/Austin

2012 seems pretty promising, if Daniels emerges as your #1, which was easier to picture than Claypool becoming that guy. Also it seemed like Neal would play a lot.

2012 depth vs. 2018 depth - 2018 (obvious). This was the achilles heel of 2012. If Daniels was not as good as hoped or if Jones or Daniels got injured, you ended up with nothing much at all behind them.

 

[NDdomer2]

With us being at 89 scholarship players, have we now started the practice of oversigning? Curious to hear thoughts.

werent we over 85 after last years signing day?

 

[zelezo vlk]

Actually, I don't think so. Going into 2012, things looked pretty bad if you leave out TEs. Not only was there no proven production, but there was very little depth and the talent was young.

Experience:
1) TJ Jones, Jr. (5'11", skinny, 38 catches and 366 yards, 3 TDs in 2011 -- decent #2, but seemed questionable as number 1 with that build and skill set)
2) Robby Toma (tiny, played b/c of injuries, caught 19 balls for 207 yards and 1 TD in 2011)
3) John Goodman: (had done close to nothing first three years -seven passes for 65 yards)
4) Daniel Smith - Played 2 games in 2011

Red-shirts and freshman
1) Davaris Daniels (red shirted--not an optimal sign for skilled player)
2) Davonte Neal(5'9" 5-star freshman)
3) Chris Brown (3-star freshman)

So comparing...

2012 vs. 2018

TJ Jones, Jr. vs. Chase Claypool - WASH. Numbers are similar. Jones had made some good catches. And we know in hindsight that he became Mr. Consistency (which has been a tendency in Kelly era). But he was not there yet. Claypool has FAR more talent, but is currently inconsistent. This is a good football player who looked like he had an obvious ceiling vs. a more raw player with incredible upside.

Robby Toma vs. Michael Young - 2018. Toma was tiny, but had great hands. Young seems more talented, meaner quicker, and just as tenacious.

Goodman/Smith vs. Finke/Boykin/Canteen - 2018 - Goodman and Smith were kind of big and not that fast. Goodman had pretty good hands but was not that strong. Smith was pretty strong but had not that good hands. Finke is proven production and can actually make plays. Boykin has very good hands and is very strong, and is as fast as either of those guys.

Davaris Daniels vs. Armstrong/McKinnley/Jones (EE)- WASH (lean 2012). I was definitively more excited about Daniels than I was about either of these guys, and the excitement was warranted when he was healthy. But Daniels and McKinnley had similar projections from recruiting services, Armstrong is built like an NFL player, there are three of them, and DD was always a question mark.

Neal vs. Austin. WASH (lean 2018). Neal was dynamic, but had already shown himself to be super high-maintenance, and was small. We thought he was finally going to be that ultra-productive slot guy that Kelly had at UC, but that never happened at ND. Austin seems college ready, has a complete skill set, and has his head screwed on straight.

Brown vs. Lenzy/Keys - 2018 Lenzy is faster, Austin seems more skilled and more prepared. There are two of them.

2012 depth vs. 2018 depth - 2018

Heck I might go with 2016's receivers over 2012 as being the least proven/talented.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Heck I might go with 2016's receivers over 2012 as being the least proven/talented.

Could be, but I think 2012 is always more interesting since we made the NC!

 

[IrishLax]

Actually, I don't think so. Going into 2012, things looked pretty bad if you leave out TEs. Not only was there no proven production, but the talent was thin and young.

Experience:
1) TJ Jones, Jr. (5'11", skinny, 38 catches and 366 yards as sopohmore, 3 TDs)
2) Robby Toma (5'9", played b/c of injuries, caught 19 balls for 207 yards and 1 TD)
3) John Goodman: (had done close to nothing first three years -seven passes for 65 yards)
4) Daniel Smith - Played 2 games in 2011

Red-shirts and freshman
1) Davaris Daniels (red shirted--not an optimal sign for skilled player)
2) Davonte Neal(5'9" 5-star freshman)
3) Chris Brown (3-star freshman)

So comparing...

2012 vs. 2018

TJ Jones, Jr. vs. Chase Claypool - WASH. Numbers are similar. We know in hindsight that Jones became Mr. Consistency (which has been a tendency in Kelly era), but he was not there yet. Claypool has FAR more talent, but is currently inconsistent.

Robby Toma vs. Michael Young - 2018. Toma was tiny, but had great hands. Young seems more talented, meaner quicker, and just as tenacious.

Goodman/Smith vs. Finke/Boykin/Canteen - 2018 - Goodman and Smith were kind of big and not that fast. Goodman had pretty good hands but was not that strong. Smith was pretty strong but had not that good hands. Finke is proven production and can actually make plays. Boykin has very good hands and is very strong, and is as fast as either of those guys.

Davaris Daniels vs. Armstrong/McKinnley/Jones (EE)- WASH (lean 2012). I was definitively more excited about Daniels than I was about either of these guys, and the excitement was warranted when he was healthy. But Daniels and McKinnley had similar projections from recruiting services, Armstrong is built like an NFL player, there are three of them, and DD was always a question mark.

Neal vs. Austin. WASH (lean 2018). Neal was dynamic, but had already shown himself to be super high-maintenance, and was small. We thought he was finally going to be that ultra-productive slot guy that Kelly had at UC, but that never happened at ND. Austin seems college ready, has a complete skill set, and has his head screwed on straight.

Brown vs. Lenzy/Keys - 2018 Lenzy is faster, Austin seems more skilled and more prepared. There are two of them.

2012 depth vs. 2018 depth - 2018

We have the gift of hindsight, but we know TJ Jones is 4 year NFL veteran. If we guess at Claypool progressing I agree that's a wash because Claypool seems like he could be a very good player.

But I have no clue why you'd say DaVaris Daniels == McKinnley/Armstrong/Jones. Coming into '12 everyone was saying how Daniels was going to be a breakout player and the only reason he redshirted in '11 was because Floyd was playing. Does everyone on here not know that McKinnley can't play? And no one has said those same things about Armstrong, and Jones hasn't seen a practice yet. No one can project how any of the true frosh are going to do for obvious reasons. Armstrong is a top candidate to flip to RB and we're doing == to a guy that people raved about while he was waiting his turn behind a 1st rounder?

The best way to think of it is as a thought experiment... if you gave the coaches the option of taking TJ/Daniels/Toma/Eifert vs Claypool/Boykin/Finke/Mack which do you think the coaches would take? Obviously, the first group. If you remove the flexed-out TE playing jumbo receiver it's TJ/Daniels/Toma vs Claypool/Boykin/Finke in that they'd still probably take the first group because Daniels > Boykin... Daniels in his first year playing had more catches/yards than Boykin has had his entire career. Now what if we assume that TJ/Daniels/Toma vs Claypool/Boykin/Young and we project that both Boykin and Young take big steps forward? Then I think the '18 group is probably better than '12... but that required a lot of ifs.

The crux of the issue is that '18 requires either guys that the staff has been lukewarm on taking big steps or true freshman no one knows anything about playing at a very high level to be a good group. Coming into a year like '12, that's not what people were saying... they were saying "TJ Jones is a great route runner and multi-year starter, Eifert is going to be moved all over the field and a huge mismatch as a WR, and DaVaris Daniels was a baller in practice and will be a drop off from Floyd but still very productive."

Last offseason, talking to people who were at practice or around the program the two consistent things they said were 1) Safety is a disaster 2) there is no consistent play at WR behind Stepherson, but at least ESB and Claypool elite tools. Both were proven true as the season played out. False narratives included that Wimbush would "light the world on fire", etc. so people don't always get their projections right.

After the season wrapped up, the two areas of concern that keep getting brought up are 1) OT 2) WR. At WR in particular I keep hearing about how important it was to sign 3+ guys and how there will be an opportunity for true frosh to earn significant minutes because the staff has reservations about basically everyone that is currently on the depth chart. So I just don't know how anyone being objective looks at our WR depth chart and gets warm + fuzzy feelings... our best player is recovering from an injury, and behind him the next most proven player is a senior with 18 total catches in his career.

'18 might not be the least talented group of pass catchers we've had in the Kelly tenure, but if it's not it's close.

 

[IrishLax]

Heck I might go with 2016's receivers over 2012 as being the least proven/talented.

You had Stepherson/ESB who are both significantly more talented than the guys they were starting over. And those guys they were starting over are who we're talking about now.

If you gave the coaches a choice of having Stepherson+ESB in '18 as their starters or Claypool+Boykin what do you think they would choose?

 

[Domina Nostra]

We have the gift of hindsight, but we know TJ Jones is 4 year NFL veteran. If we guess at Claypool progressing I agree that's a wash because Claypool seems like he could be a very good player.

But I have no clue why you'd say DaVaris Daniels == McKinnley/Armstrong/Jones. Coming into '12 everyone was saying how Daniels was going to be a breakout player and the only reason he redshirted in '11 was because Floyd was playing. Does everyone on here not know that McKinnley can't play? And no one has said those same things about Armstrong, and Jones hasn't seen a practice yet. No one can project how any of the true frosh are going to do for obvious reasons. Armstrong is a top candidate to flip to RB and we're doing == to a guy that people raved about while he was waiting his turn behind a 1st rounder?

I agree with this generally, and expanded after you started to respond. I do think there was a little BS to the idea Daniels RS solely b/c of Floyd stuff, though, and we new it. We could have used another very good WR in 2011 for sure! There were some issues there.

My point with Daniels was that he was totally unproven, but I did change to say that I was much more confident with him going in, and that I was more confident with the starting 3 in 2012. The depth there, was terrible, though, and Daniels and Jones were still question marks.

I also agree that 2018 is concerning at WR-- if on par with some other years we've had. Maybe Robertson can flip if he is not in the running at FS. We have plenty of SS and Rovers, both currently and in the future.

 

[zelezo vlk]

You had Stepherson/ESB who are both significantly more talented than the guys they were starting over. And those guys they were starting over are who we're talking about now.

If you gave the coaches a choice of having Stepherson+ESB in '18 as their starters or Claypool+Boykin what do you think they would choose?

We're talking about 2016 though, Lax. ESB didn't have production in 2015 other than a single catch and Steph was a true freshman that nobody expected to put up serious numbers. The WR position was considered one of the least talented groups heading into 2016, just like 2018.

 

[Domina Nostra]

You had Stepherson/ESB who are both significantly more talented than the guys they were starting over. And those guys they were starting over are who we're talking about now.

If you gave the coaches a choice of having Stepherson+ESB in '18 as their starters or Claypool+Boykin what do you think they would choose?

Right, but Stepherson was a freshman, so I have no idea if one of Austin, Lenzy, or Keys will emerge too. The talent is there, as much as it was for Stepherson. No one was projecting him to be as good as he was.

I think the point is, that we are, ONCE AGAIN, untested at WR.

On the one hand, someone has always emerged thus far.

On the other hand, there is always a first time for everything...

 

[ThePiombino]

We have the gift of hindsight, but we know TJ Jones is 4 year NFL veteran. If we guess at Claypool progressing I agree that's a wash because Claypool seems like he could be a very good player.

But I have no clue why you'd say DaVaris Daniels == McKinnley/Armstrong/Jones. Coming into '12 everyone was saying how Daniels was going to be a breakout player and the only reason he redshirted in '11 was because Floyd was playing. Does everyone on here not know that McKinnley can't play? And no one has said those same things about Armstrong, and Jones hasn't seen a practice yet. No one can project how any of the true frosh are going to do for obvious reasons. Armstrong is a top candidate to flip to RB and we're doing == to a guy that people raved about while he was waiting his turn behind a 1st rounder?

The best way to think of it is as a thought experiment... if you gave the coaches the option of taking TJ/Daniels/Toma/Eifert vs Claypool/Boykin/Finke/Mack which do you think the coaches would take? Obviously, the first group. If you remove the flexed-out TE playing jumbo receiver it's TJ/Daniels/Toma vs Claypool/Boykin/Finke in that they'd still probably take the first group because Daniels > Boykin... Daniels in his first year playing had more catches/yards than Boykin has had his entire career. Now what if we assume that TJ/Daniels/Toma vs Claypool/Boykin/Young and we project that both Boykin and Young take big steps forward? Then I think the '18 group is probably better than '12... but that required a lot of ifs.

The crux of the issue is that '18 requires either guys that the staff has been lukewarm on taking big steps or true freshman no one knows anything about playing at a very high level to be a good group. Coming into a year like '12, that's not what people were saying... they were saying "TJ Jones is a great route runner and multi-year starter, Eifert is going to be moved all over the field and a huge mismatch as a WR, and DaVaris Daniels was a baller in practice and will be a drop off from Floyd but still very productive."

Last offseason, talking to people who were at practice or around the program the two consistent things they said were 1) Safety is a disaster 2) there is no consistent play at WR behind Stepherson, but at least ESB and Claypool elite tools. Both were proven true as the season played out. False narratives included that Wimbush would "light the world on fire", etc. so people don't always get their projections right.

After the season wrapped up, the two areas of concern that keep getting brought up are 1) OT 2) WR. At WR in particular I keep hearing about how important it was to sign 3+ guys and how there will be an opportunity for true frosh to earn significant minutes because the staff has reservations about basically everyone that is currently on the depth chart. So I just don't know how anyone being objective looks at our WR depth chart and gets warm + fuzzy feelings... our best player is recovering from an injury, and behind him the next most proven player is a senior with 18 total catches in his career.

'18 might not be the least talented group of pass catchers we've had in the Kelly tenure, but if it's not it's close.

What do you mean McKinnley can't play? You talking about eligibility or talent?

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[IrishLax]

What do you mean McKinnley can't play? You talking about eligibility or talent?

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Apparently, after his leg injury, he just doesn't get separation in practices. Not explosive, can't get open. This is all second-hand, but it's what I've heard.

 

[longliveautrydenson]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Just finished studying ND WR Equanimeous St Brown...very interesting player. Creates consistent separation but the ball placement is deplorable. He's got quickness at the top of his route and his ability to adjust is outstanding. I put a big grade on him.</p>— Daniel Jeremiah (@MoveTheSticks) <a href="https://twitter.com/MoveTheSticks/status/961329099246481408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 7, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

“Creates consistent separation but the ball placement is deplorable.” We can debate whether we have NFL-caliber receivers until the cows come home, but we won’t know their actual skill level unless we have someone that can get them the ball. I’m going to withhold judgment on our current crop of WRs until they have a QB that gives them an opportunity to make plays.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

18 Stripes is very optimistic about this class:

Depending on how you look at it, this was probably either the best or second best class of Kelly’s tenure. The 2013 class, with Jaylon Smith, Max Redfield, and Greg Bryant (RIP), had more star power and was ranked higher, but this class has much more depth. I think this is far and away the best defensive class Kelly has signed at ND; Ademilola, Lamb, Simon, Griffith, and Allen give the Irish absolutely elite talents at each level of the defense. That just doesn’t happen.

 

[Luckylucci]

18 Stripes is very optimistic about this class:

For me, this is my biggest takeaway. We were able to land elite talent on all levels of the defense. Plus grab a few players that have high ceilings.

 

[NDdomer2]

For me, this is my biggest takeaway. We were able to land elite talent on all levels of the defense. Plus grab a few players that have high ceilings.

have to feel really good about the overall athleticism of the class too. A lot of dynamic athletes.

 

[Luckylucci]

have to feel really good about the overall athleticism of the class too. A lot of dynamic athletes.

Certainly, and that falls under my category of guys with high ceilings. All of Boykin, Bracy, Wilkins, Ovie, Lenzy, Keys, Tremble, and Austin are all dynamic athletes for their respective sizes/positions.