2016 Fall Camp Thread

[ND Fan Vancouver]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If there's a more terrifying left tackle/left guard combo in college than McGlinchey and Nelson, I'd like to see it ... from a distance.</p>— Irish Illustrated (@PeteSampson_) <a href="https://twitter.com/PeteSampson_/status/766728060959948800">August 19, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I think in games this season we will pound the ball early and OFTEN and set up cut trap to the right side and burn D's HARD with sexy play action passes. Our line is awesome and we have 3 (or 4) solid RB's with different skill sets.....oh yeah and two great QB's that are most certainly dual threat.....defensive game planning around us is gonna be a major challenge. I think D's will stack the box to stop the run then we can exploit them if we execute and have clever play-calling

 

[koonja]

Yet another reason to start Kizer

I don't even want Kizer to start but I'd rather he start than this half ass plan that leaves both QBs unhappy.

 

[IrishBroker]

I don't even want Kizer to start but I'd rather he start than this half ass plan that leaves both QBs unhappy.

This.

Pick one and go. 2 QB systems don't work.

Face it...one is going to be unhappy, don't piss both of them off. We have some real talent waiting. If one leaves? Fine.

 

[arrowryan]

I think in games this season we will pound the ball early and OFTEN and set up cut trap to the right side and burn D's HARD with sexy play action passes. Our line is awesome and we have 3 (or 4) solid RB's with different skill sets.....oh yeah and two great QB's that are most certainly dual threat.....defensive game planning around us is gonna be a major challenge. I think D's will stack the box to stop the run then we can exploit them if we execute and have clever play-calling

I think it is pretty obvious what kind of identity this offense will have this season. If you have the best left side of any o-line in the country, probably the best o-line in general, and one of the best backfields in the country then your offensive identity run the ball and set up the play action.

What makes this offense more unique than most run heavy offenses is that I don't think the Irish offense will need to be successful running the ball in order to be successful passing the ball. I just don't think they'll have to pass all that much if they don't want to. If I had to think of a percentage of the top of my head, I think the offensive play calling could be 60% run, 40% pass.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think it is pretty obvious what kind of identity this offense will have this season. If you have the best left side of any o-line in the country, probably the best o-line in general, and one of the best backfields in the country then your offensive identity run the ball and set up the play action.

I can definitely see us having one of the best OLs in the country, though expecting that level of dominance is a little much given the snaps we're replacing. And I'm definitely not expecting us to have "one of the best backfields" in the country; hopefully good enough to command respect from opposing DCs, but heading into this season, none of our RBs demands being schemed around.

What makes this offense more unique than most run heavy offenses is that I don't think the Irish offense will need to be successful running the ball in order to be successful passing the ball. I just don't think they'll have to pass all that much if they don't want to. If I had to think of a percentage of the top of my head, I think the offensive play calling could be 60% run, 40% pass.

I can count on one hand the number of games during Kelly's tenure where our OL has sufficiently mauled the opposition that Kelly was content to just run the ball repeatedly. When the game is still in question, he's almost always shooting for a balanced attack that's regularly producing explosive plays. If the run game is working, the defense is almost always going to cheat to shut it down; and you can bet that Kelly is going to keeping throwing in that situation until he either puts the game out of reach or the defense goes back to its base set/ cheats in the other direction.

We come into every season hoping for a run-first attack, and it never happens. That's just not how Kelly operates.

 

[woolybug25]

This.

Pick one and go. 2 QB systems don't work.

Face it...one is going to be unhappy, don't piss both of them off. We have some real talent waiting. If one leaves? Fine.

Let me ask you this... What two QB system failed when they were playing two QB's because of how good both were, not because of deficiencies?

 

[arrowryan]

I can definitely see us having one of the best OLs in the country, though expecting that level of dominance is a little much given the snaps we're replacing. And I'm definitely not expecting us to have "one of the best backfields" in the country; hopefully good enough to command respect from opposing DCs, but heading into this season, none of our RBs demands being schemed around.



I can count on one hand the number of games during Kelly's tenure where our OL has sufficiently mauled the opposition that Kelly was content to just run the ball repeatedly. When the game is still in question, he's almost always shooting for a balanced attack that's regularly producing explosive plays. If the run game is working, the defense is almost always going to cheat to shut it down; and you can bet that Kelly is going to keeping throwing in that situation until he either puts the game out of reach or the defense goes back to its base set/ cheats in the other direction.

We come into every season hoping for a run-first attack, and it never happens. That's just not how Kelly operates.

The second part I agree with. But you have to remember that this is probably the first time that we have two proven quarterbacks that are a true threat to run. Kelly will probably want to use his quarterbacks more in the run game knowing he has two really good quarterbacks.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The second part I agree with. But you have to remember that this is probably the first time that we have two proven quarterbacks that are a true threat to run. Kelly will probably want to use his quarterbacks more in the run game knowing he has two really good quarterbacks.

Golson was a true threat to run. So was Collaros at UC. And Kelly didn't change a thing with either of them at QB.

 

[woolybug25]

The second part I agree with. But you have to remember that this is probably the first time that we have two proven quarterbacks that are a true threat to run. Kelly will probably want to use his quarterbacks more in the run game knowing he has two really good quarterbacks.

He had two good, mobile QB's at Cinci and still aimed for balance. I'm pretty sure balance is a goal of his offensive philosophy.

 

[Meatloaf]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If there's a more terrifying left tackle/left guard combo in college than McGlinchey and Nelson, I'd like to see it ... from a distance.</p>— Irish Illustrated (@PeteSampson_) <a href="https://twitter.com/PeteSampson_/status/766728060959948800">August 19, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[IrishBroker]

Let me ask you this... What two QB system failed when they were playing two QB's because of how good both were, not because of deficiencies?

Fair question.

My concern is more of a issue of consistency with the offense, not because one guy can't do something the other guy can.

I'd rather pick one, stick with him, and grow the offense that way. I don't believe you can truly get cohesive offensive play when you are rotating two guys at QB.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

He had two good, mobile QB's at Cinci and still aimed for balance. I'm pretty sure balance is a goal of his offensive philosophy.

Absolutely. He wants explosive plays/ chunk yardage, and I don't think he really cares whether they come through the air or on the ground. But with the way most college defenses are set up, it's usually easier to go through the air, so that's what Kelly does.

Without controlling for things like down/distance and score, those stats aren't very useful. Every team in CFB runs more when they're ahead, leading to a strong correlation between running the ball and win %. If you want to get an accurate picture of how offenses differ, you need to look at what they do on standard downs and when the game is close. In those situations, Kelly passes more than most.

 

[woolybug25]

Fair question.

My concern is more of a issue of consistency with the offense, not because one guy can't do something the other guy can.

I'd rather pick one, stick with him, and grow the offense that way. I don't believe you can truly get cohesive offensive play when you are rotating two guys at QB.

I don't disagree. My only note is that we often hear on here "2 QB systems don't work". Which doesn't encompass the scope of this situation. It shouldn't be compared to situations where teams are playing them out of necessity. There isn't a big enough sample size to determine whether our situation works well or bad. The only time I can remember a team doing what we are going to attempt is Tebow/Leak. While we shouldn't use that as conclusive evidence (too small of sample), that situation worked pretty damn well.

 

[IrishBroker]

I don't disagree. My only note is that we often hear on here "2 QB systems don't work". Which doesn't encompass the scope of this situation. It shouldn't be compared to situations where teams are playing them out of necessity. There isn't a big enough sample size to determine whether our situation works well or bad. The only time I can remember a team doing what we are going to attempt is Tebow/Leak. While we shouldn't use that as conclusive evidence (too small of sample), that situation worked pretty damn well.

I'd also say that even the situation in Cincy was done out of necessity to an extent...He had a ton of injuries at that position there. I think he went through like 5 QB's in one season?!!

And I agree on Leak/Tebow. Tebow was simple a "gadget" guy who came in to try and mix things up and made some big plays. It wasn't a true split

 

[NDdomer2]

I project increase in delay of game penalties

 

[IrishBroker]

I project increase in delay of game penalties

Ugggg...That's what I mean by consistency.

False starts as well

 

[fightingirish26]

I just feel like the whole QB thing is being blown out of proportion. I think our team will be good enough to get through Texas and Nevada, and by the time MSU comes to town I think one of the two will have emerged as the clear starter. I doubt it will be a 2 QB system after two games.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't disagree. My only note is that we often hear on here "2 QB systems don't work". Which doesn't encompass the scope of this situation. It shouldn't be compared to situations where teams are playing them out of necessity. There isn't a big enough sample size to determine whether our situation works well or bad. The only time I can remember a team doing what we are going to attempt is Tebow/Leak. While we shouldn't use that as conclusive evidence (too small of sample), that situation worked pretty damn well.

Stoops did something similar with Landry Jones and Blake Bell. So we know the "older traditional skillset #1 getting most of the reps with a younger redzone battering ram running a limited package" can work. I don't get the impression that's what Kelly intends to do with Zaire though.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I think Petrino did at Lousville with a QB named Brohm and someone else. I believe he was fairly successful that year.

 

[woolybug25]

Stoops did something similar with Landy Jones and Blake Bell. So we know the "older traditional skillset #1 getting most of the reps with a younger redzone battering ram running a limited package" can work. I don't get the impression that's what Kelly intends to do with Zaire though.

Very true. That's 2 for 2, albeit both different for the reasons you mentioned.

I do think it would be fair for one to argue that our tandem having the ability to both run the offense could be seen as an advantage. With the other two, you knew that when Tebow or Bell came in, they were most likely running the ball. We don't have that limitation, with the added advantage of both being capable of doing both.

For instance, we can easily flip the script and say... Mix them both in the 4th quarter and run Kizer and let Malik air it out.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

The 2012 NC game shows why this is an incomplete picture. We passed because we knew that Bama was so stout up front that trying to run against then was a fools errand. Michigan State the year before tried to establish the run against them, and ended up with negative 48 yards rushing. Meanwhile vs LSU, airing it out with a first time starting QB against their NFL quality DB'S and against a team that struggled against dual threat QB'S would have been idiotic.

I know people want a team that "has an identity" but Kelly tends to take what the defenses give him. Running the ball and getting three and outs can sometimes just be stubborn and foolhardy.

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

I just feel like the whole QB thing is being blown out of proportion. I think our team will be good enough to get through Texas and Nevada, and by the time MSU comes to town I think one of the two will have emerged as the clear starter. I doubt it will be a 2 QB system after two games.

This is what I'm thinking too but man...they're both so good. It may end up being a 2 QB system though too...Heck, I dunno...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Very true. That's 2 for 2, albeit both different for the reasons you mentioned.

I do think it would be fair for one to argue that our tandem having the ability to both run the offense could be seen as an advantage. With the other two, you knew that when Tebow or Bell came in, they were most likely running the ball. We don't have that limitation, with the added advantage of both being capable of doing both.

For instance, we can easily flip the script and say... Mix them both in the 4th quarter and run Kizer and let Malik air it out.

I think our offense would likely be very good under either QB this season. My concern is that Kelly is doing this primarily to keep them both invested/ prevent a transfer. And that, at least, is uncharted territory AFAIK. Might work, but could just as easily backfire.

 

[IrishLax]

What do people think... neither, both, or one of these QBs are on the roster next year?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What do people thing... neither, both, or one of these QBs are on the roster next year?

At this point, in order of descending likelihood: (1) both; (2) one of; and then (3) neither. But that would probably change if one of them takes over as the clear starter.

Lotta possibilities though. If one gets injured and the other takes over, I don't see either transferring. But if Wimbush sees serious minutes this year, that would almost guarantee a transfer.

 

[IrishLax]

I think Wimbush starts, Kizer goes pro, Zaire transfers somewhere down south after graduating.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

I think Wimbush starts, Kizer goes pro, Zaire transfers somewhere down south after graduating.

Sounds about right. Don't think Zaire goes down south though. I could see him transfer in to dare I say meat chicken next year.


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[tommyIRISH23]

What do people think... neither, both, or one of these QBs are on the roster next year?

Kizer stays. I think he'll get the nod at some point and Zaire will slowly get placed into situational packages. I think the ceiling is sky high for Kizer. He's tall, big arm, can run, accurate passer, poised, and can read a defense. He's a pocket passer that can beat you with his legs.

 

[fightingirish26]

Sounds about right. Don't think Zaire goes down south though. I could see him transfer in to dare I say meat chicken next year.


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He wouldn't dare

 

[Rocket89]

I'm curious what people think about development and continuity for the future?

For example, what Oklahoma did in the past, IMO, was terrible for continuity. They messed around with the Belldozer package in 2012 both deflating Landry Jones, and more importantly for the future, not developing Blake Bell at all.

Then 2013 Bell was incapable of being QB and they went through another controversy with Trevor Knight playing a lot. For 2014, Knight finally took the reigns and we found out he wasn't that good as OU lost 5 games.

I don't know, OU did go 21-5 from 2012-13 so I guess the QB juggling worked. But did it really? Say we go 10-3 this year (with both QB's playing most of the year) did the rotation "work?"

I also think how it sets up the 2017 season matters a lot, too. The #1 thing we've been harping on under Kelly is QB continuity and it'd suck to go into another season without it.