'18 OH DE Malik Vann (Cincinnati Verbal)

[IrishLion]

Why dude? He's a good player but scheme fit has to come into play here. BVG offered Vann and who knows how much Elko likes even recruited this guy. I know the commits went after him but how hard did our staff. We already have the twins so let's swing for the fences here. It's only February so maybe after a strong senior season we could go down this road. Feel like Vann will have hard feelings but who knows.

I like Vann as a player nut aren't to many great 6'0 DE's. If he was 6'3 he would be committed to us. I think it's the reason that Iowa kid and O'Rourke haven't been offered because staff is swinging for the fence and I love it. If it was December then I would start being worried. He doesn't fit the scheme for Elko just like Schutt didn't fit the scheme of Diaco.

I'll be very interested to see if Vann wants to wait a couple months and is still able to commit to Bama. Bama throws a lot of offers out there but then say come camp with us and we will make it official. So let's wait and see here. I wish Malik the best and he's gonna go to a great college and I'll be keeping an eye on him in the future

All of this.

The twins are both gonna end up on the DL. The staff probably feels good about Mustipher. And Ovie could even end up at DE.

Take that into account, and it explains the staff going after more LB's than just Gant, and also leaves no room for a SDE/DT tweener.

The only space left is for a true pass rusher.

 

[dwshade]

I still say Booker is the guy they want for the remaining DE spot. They have Lenzy recruiting him.

 

[GBdomer]

All of this.

The twins are both gonna end up on the DL. The staff probably feels good about Mustipher. And Ovie could even end up at DE.

Take that into account, and it explains the staff going after more LB's than just Gant, and also leaves no room for a SDE/DT tweener.

The only space left is for a true pass rusher.

Exactly and great point with Ovie. With his unusual long arms and frame why not make him a speed rusher? Groom him into that, its not like we need him to play right away. I want to see how Elko runs his defense at ND and sees more offers before I claim this was a mistake. If BVG defense the staff and BVG fucked up by not taking Vann. But with Elko track record and proof of player development I'm gonna trust him here over the fans who watched his highlight tape for three minutes and thought he's a perfect fit here. I would love to know how many of you could watch highlight tapes without knowing the player and how many stars they have and think they are offer worthy or it. I'm sure some would be and some of these guys might not even be ranked or on ND radar. Why I have a hard time when people say I watched his YouTube tape and he's offer worthy. They ALL LOOOK GOOD. They are suppose too. I'll judge Elko and the staff who probably watched every snap he played last year. I got faith and trust in Elko in what he is looking for because all he's done is proven himself and he's hungry to turn around ND's defense and establish himself as one of the best defensive cord in America

 

[GBdomer]

I still say Booker is the guy they want for the remaining DE spot. They have Lenzy recruiting him.

Just because Lenzy is recruiting him doesn't make him at the top of the board. No doubt he's high on the board but just because Lenzy is after him doesn't mean it's the guy they want the most. Hell I think ND would take three true pass rushers this class if they can lol

 

[GBdomer]

Another thing in my opinion you take Vann and you basically are getting the same player as one of the twins. With it being a smaller class potentially imo that doesn't make to much sense.

 

[BobbyMac]

All of this.

The twins are both gonna end up on the DL. The staff probably feels good about Mustipher. And Ovie could even end up at DE.

Take that into account, and it explains the staff going after more LB's than just Gant, and also leaves no room for a SDE/DT tweener.

The only space left is for a true pass rusher.

Except they just offered Daniel Carson.

Allowing what went on in social media with Vann's recruitment was bush league. It's not a good look. Elko should have known within week 1 if Vann was in his plans or not and the ND recruiting machine should have been programmed accordingly at that time.

 

[GBdomer]

Except they just offered Daniel Carson.

Allowing what went on in social media with Vann's recruitment was bush league. It's not a good look. Elko should have known within week 1 if Vann was in his plans or not and the ND recruiting machine should have been programmed accordingly at that time.

Dude the commits were recruiting Vann and it seems like the staff wasn't. That's not on the coaches. It wasn't like he came to meet Elko a couple weekends ago and promised him stuff that he was in the future plans. Maybe Elko wanted to see him in person and get a feel for him and when he didn't come Elko and the staff moved on.

 

[dwshade]

Except they just offered Daniel Carson.

Allowing what went on in social media with Vann's recruitment was bush league. It's not a good look. Elko should have known within week 1 if Vann was in his plans or not and the ND recruiting machine should have been programmed accordingly at that time.

Carson is the type player they are looking for. 6-5, 270 SDE.

 

[dwshade]

All of this.

The twins are both gonna end up on the DL. The staff probably feels good about Mustipher. And Ovie could even end up at DE.

Take that into account, and it explains the staff going after more LB's than just Gant, and also leaves no room for a SDE/DT tweener.

The only space left is for a true pass rusher.

They are looking for a SDE. And that player is also capable of rushing the passer. The WF SDE was their leading pass rusher with double digit sacks. People seem to think the pass rush only comes from the WDE while the SDE is more of a run stopper. Not true at all.

 

[BobbyMac]

Dude the commits were recruiting Vann and it seems like the staff wasn't. That's not on the coaches. It wasn't like he came to meet Elko a couple weekends ago and promised him stuff that he was in the future plans. Maybe Elko wanted to see him in person and get a feel for him and when he didn't come Elko and the staff moved on.

1. I've never been the biggest Vann fan.

2. You said he's 6-0 earlier. I posted a pic of him and Fickell yesterday that shows him almost his height. Fickell played at 6-4. So I'll say he's 6-2.5. Not that I care, just stating my take on his height. I don't want casual people thinking he's 6-0.

3. So you think it doesn't matter if the players are out publicly recruiting whoever they want? It doesn't make sense to you to have a coordinated effort in recruiting? It it's a FreeFerAll regarding recruiting, they should stop having group texts, branded classes and all of the effort they put into recruiting. Do you think when Tate Martell came up with his Recruiting Board last year that Urbie and the staff didn't ok that first... or wrote the board out and tell him who to target??

4. I think you're right about him not being a WDE. If he's an SDE, why not get a guy with more radius and 25-30 lbs. He's basically the size of a Bama LB or RB right now... not an ND DE.

5. The Staff should have squashed any hype trains before they get off track. You don't want players out bad mouthing you, especially in Cincy. Didn't St Joe in Philly teach us anything?

 

[GBdomer]

1. I've never been the biggest Vann fan.

2. You said he's 6-0 earlier. I posted a pic of him and Fickell yesterday that shows him almost his height. Fickell played at 6-4. So I'll say he's 6-2.5. Not that I care, just stating my take on his height. I don't want casual people thinking he's 6-0.

3. So you think it doesn't matter if the players are out publicly recruiting whoever they want? It doesn't make sense to you to have a coordinated effort in recruiting? It it's a FreeFerAll regarding recruiting, they should stop having group texts, branded classes and all of the effort they put into recruiting. Do you think when Tate Martell came up with his Recruiting Board last year that Urbie and the staff didn't ok that first... or wrote the board out and tell him who to target??

4. I think you're right about him not being a WDE. If he's an SDE, why not get a guy with more radius and 25-30 lbs. He's basically the size of a Bama LB or RB right now... not an ND DE.

5. The Staff should have squashed any hype trains before they get off track. You don't want players out bad mouthing you, especially in Cincy. Didn't St Joe in Philly teach us anything?

Good points and I see what you are saying but also is it a good look for the staff to say "Hey Stepp I know Vann is your boy and you are after him real hard but he doesn't have an order under Elko" I get both sides and your points aren't wrong

I don't think he will bad mouth ND or hurt our Cinnci recruiting. We kind of own that area and it's not really Buckeye friendly. The coaches know it's a business and some players do as well. What you mean about St Joes?

 

[BobbyMac]

Another thing about SDE's. If you look at Elko's guy at Wake Duke Ejiofor you'll find that he's 6-4, 270lbs. That does not mean we should expect to be recruiting 6-4, 270lb SDE's in the Class of '17. Duke was 6-4, 210 as a Sr.

Sr. HS Pic

<iframe class="twofourseven-embed" style="max-width: 100%" frameborder="0" width="600" height="200" src="http://247sports.com/PlayerSport/Duke-Ejiofor-at-Alief-Taylor-46451/Embed"></iframe><script async src="https://assets.247sports.com/Scripts/Shared/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

If the staff passes on Vann, I think it'd be a pretty huge mistake. If it's a numbers crunch thing, then that'd be partially his fault for extending his recruitment and taking visits. On the other hand, it's stupid to recruit a kid hard and have him telling everyone that he's going to ND and then decide you don't have room for a tweeter. Like always, I think you sign up as many good football players as you can, and I think he's a very good football player.

Agree 100%. He's simply a fantastic DE and could have a great career like Dwight Freeney - another 6'1 DE. He does good work on the inside as well and shows fantastic technique. There's a few other fringe things like fans loving him and all the '18 commits being friends with him and starting the #VannToSouthBend movement. Maybe they will keep recruiting him. Who knows. He said he was makin a list in April and deciding May/June which certainly is more than fair.
I think ND may feel he's either not a fit schematically or that they want a long 6'3+ type like Ossai.

I'm bummed about this and hope it's either not true or not a completely closed door

 

[dwshade]

Another thing about SDE's. If you look at Elko's guy at Wake Duke Ejiofor you'll find that he's 6-4, 270lbs. That does not mean we should expect to be recruiting 6-4, 270lb SDE's in the Class of '17. Duke was 6-4, 210 as a Sr.

Sr. HS Pic

<iframe class="twofourseven-embed" style="max-width: 100%" frameborder="0" width="600" height="200" src="http://247sports.com/PlayerSport/Duke-Ejiofor-at-Alief-Taylor-46451/Embed"></iframe><script async src="https://assets.247sports.com/Scripts/Shared/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He was recruiting a completely different athlete at Wake. Projects for the most parts. Kids like Booker and Carson he didn't have a chance to get. Look at that kid's ranking.

 

[dwshade]

Agree 100%. He's simply a fantastic DE and could have a great career like Dwight Freeney - another 6'1 DE. He does good work on the inside as well and shows fantastic technique. There's a few other fringe things like fans loving him and all the '18 commits being friends with him and starting the #VannToSouthBend movement. Maybe they will keep recruiting him. Who knows. He said he was makin a list in April and deciding May/June which certainly is more than fair.
I think ND may feel he's either not a fit schematically or that they want a long 6'3+ type like Ossai.

I'm bummed about this and hope it's either not true or not a completely closed door

Please stop with the Freeney references. And I would take Booker or Carson over Vann if we are down to one spot left at DE.

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

Please stop with the Freeney references. And I would take Booker or Carson over Vann if we are down to one spot left at DE.

What is wrong with the Freeney reference. It's what cones to my mind when I think of a successful 6'1 DE that excels due to technique and quickness.

 

[dwshade]

What is wrong with the Freeney reference. It's what cones to my mind when I think of a successful 6'1 DE that excels due to technique and quickness.

He's a JR. in high school. Comparing him to a potential HOF is a little silly at this point. Bama offered him and I guarantee you he won't play as DL there. They would look at him as a 3-4 OLB. Also I still see OSU, Michigan and Penn St. heaven't offered a local to the region kid. Obviously not a scheme fit for them either.

 

[Irish Man3]

I have no problem with what the staff is doing in this instance. Elko and Lea know exactly what they want. To me, this isn't a Diaco situation where it's about being lazy and not watching film or measurables.

My guess is that Alabama offered him as a 3/4 OLB. Elko and Lea have at least 2 of those already in this class.

Comparing Vann to Freeney is silly but I realize it was done just based on height. Vann has zero bend coming off the edge. That's what makes Freeney great and it's something Vann just doesn't have.

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

He's a JR. in high school. Comparing him to a potential HOF is a little silly at this point. Bama offered him and I guarantee you he won't play as DL there. They would look at him as a 3-4 OLB. Also I still see OSU, Michigan and Penn St. heaven't offered a local to the region kid. Obviously not a scheme fit for them either.

I said he COULD end up having a good career like Freeney as he's also a 6'1 DE. I didn't say Malik Vann is clearly as good as Freeny and will have a similar career. THAT would have been "silly."
If someone wants to make player comparisons in any aspect, it's an opinion and not really cool to just say "Stop with the ____ comparison. I'm not trying to be a dick, it's just that there's too many people on here trying to dictate what people can say about recruits. That's what's silly IMO

 

[TheTurningPoint]

Lol. Dwight Freeney?

You're referencing one of the best pass rushers in NFL history to a kid that isn't a pass rusher.

I get they are both 6-1 but that's about all the similarities between the two.

 

[dwshade]

I said he COULD end up having a good career like Freeney as he's also a 6'1 DE. I didn't say Malik Vann is clearly as good as Freeny and will have a similar career. THAT would have been "silly."
If someone wants to make player comparisons in any aspect, it's an opinion and not really cool to just say "Stop with the ____ comparison. I'm not trying to be a dick, it's just that there's too many people on here trying to dictate what people can say about recruits. That's what's silly IMO

I understand what you were trying to do. But we don't need to compare young HS kids to great NFL talent. Wanna compare him to someone on the college level I can buy that.

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

Lol. Dwight Freeney?

You're referencing one of the best pass rushers in NFL history to a kid that isn't a pass rusher.

I get they are both 6-1 but that's about all the similarities between the two.

And that's all I was referencing - that he could have a great career like another 6'1 DE did.
I'm done talking about this

 

[ND Fan Vancouver]

I understand what you were trying to do. But we don't need to compare young HS kids to great NFL talent. Wanna compare him to someone on the college level I can buy that.

Well, I don't tailor my comments to your personal needs, sorry.

 

[BobbyMac]

Vancouver,

There were probably know it all, Al Bundy types sitting at a Hooter's in Connecticut laughing at the guy who said, "You know that Freeney kid going to Syracuse could have a career like John Randle."

 

[woolybug25]

I'm sorry. I'm with Lax and others on this. Passing on him is totally out of left field. Nobody was on here acting like we should pass on him until today. If you did think that, then shame on you for not bringing that debate.

Huge miss by this staff, who to my count, have passed now on five highly rated guys that wanted to come here. They sign some project three star on signing day, and I'll lose my shit.

Vann is a no brainer take. Stupid.

 

[NDinBoston]

Vancouver,

There were probably know it all, Al Bundy types sitting at a Hooter's in Connecticut laughing at the guy who said, "You know that Freeney kid going to Syracuse could have a career like John Randle."

Urban Meyer does it all the time. You're the next Percy Harvin. Others on here have done it a ton and agreed with each other.

Vancouver wasn't trying to say he thought he'd be as good, just that that height didn't hold back Freeney. Maybe odds are against someone at that height, but if you think you see something in somebody, it's a fair point to make.

 

[BobbyMac]

I'm sorry. I'm with Lax and others on this. Passing on him is totally out of left field. Nobody was on here acting like we should pass on him until today. If you did think that, then shame on you for not bringing that debate.

Huge miss by this staff, who to my count, have passed now on five highly rated guys that wanted to come here. They sign some project three star on signing day, and I'll lose my shit.

Vann is a no brainer take. Stupid.

To be fair, ND can't take them all this cycle. If only we could put this DL class in the Hot Tub Time Machine and set it to 2014.

Signed,

The Former President of the O'Rourke & Waggoner Fan Club

 

[T-Boone]

Its making me think they like their chances with Parsons.

 

[BobbyMac]

Urban Meyer does it all the time. You're the next Percy Harvin. Others on here have done it a ton and agreed with each other.

Vancouver wasn't trying to say he thought he'd be as good, just that that height didn't hold back Freeney. Maybe odds are against someone at that height, but if you think you see something in somebody, it's a fair point to make.

Exactly. I don't see any foul in what he said. I took it as a height comparison only. That's why I brought up John Randle who was around the same height.

 

[woolybug25]

To be fair, ND can't take them all this cycle. If only we could put this DL class in the Hot Tub Time Machine and set it to 2014.

Signed,

The Former President of the O'Rourke & Waggoner Fan Club

Why? I think we can all reasonably see that working the scholarship numbers is something that is manageable. We don't know if any of the other guys mentioned will even end up in the class. In fact, history would tell us that they won't. What do we risk? Neg recruiting from other schools for slow playing committed players? Let's wake up... the great staffs do that year in and year out. There's plenty to neg recruit us on, that's pretty low on the totem pole. We have seen this staffs strategy of trying to gameble with fitting the right pegs in the right holes for every season BK has been here. Multiple assistants, multiple strategies and multiple classes have shown us that's a losing strategy. When we go and fill this class with a bunch of projects around signing day and turn what could have been a top 5 class into a top 15, we will be no better off than where we are today. Recruit the best players that are willing to come here and that fit into our culture. Modify our plans on the talented kids we get here on the team. Then we don't end up playing Joe Schmidt and his cohorts. We play talented dudes that can actually play. Even if they aren't a perfect scheme fit, at least they are good players. It's not that fuqing complicated.