'11 SC QB Everett Golson (FSU transfer)

gkIrish

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So is Rees. And Joe Schmidt will be, too.

I'm not butt-hurt, and I don't care if he does participate.

If you didn't care you wouldn't have said they should bring back Quinn or Clausen or use a ball boy instead of Golson.

If you think that working out with Everett Golson will impress the NFL scouts more than his body of work for the last two years, then I can't help you with that.

So your position is that Pro Days don't matter? Got it. (You're wrong)

Golson quit.......... not just on ND, but also on Florida State. He's a proven quitter. I didn't even enter this discussion until after people started talking as if Everett Golson was owed anything by ND.He's not.

No one said ND owed him anything. People wondered whether it would be a good idea to let him throw to his former teammates. No one said ND was obligated to invite him to our Pro Day.
 

kmoose

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If you didn't care you wouldn't have said they should bring back Quinn or Clausen or use a ball boy instead of Golson.

I said Quinn or Clausen in response to the assertion that ND should allow Golson because he is an ND grad. If that matters, then there are other options that don't involve a guy who abandoned his teammates to play elsewhere.

So your position is that Pro Days don't matter? Got it. (You're wrong)

I think Pro Days are VERY important..................... for guys who are not going to the Combine. Fuller and Brown were both invited to the Combine. If one of them has stated that they will not/cannot attend the Combine, then I am unaware of that. But that would absolutely change my mind about the importance of a Pro Day to the two of them.

No one said ND owed him anything. People wondered whether it would be a good idea to let him throw to his former teammates. No one said ND was obligated to invite him to our Pro Day.

No one came out and said that ND owed it to him, you are correct. But it seems like every time someone has expressed opposition to the idea, someone else has thrown out "He's an ND grad!" as if that means that he is owed the opportunity? I took it that way, and maybe I took it wrong. But I have just been offering my opinion. You don't like me, so you don't like my opinions. I get that, and in and of itself, I accept it. But you don't get to try to paint it like I am crusading to get Golson banned from campus or that I hate him. If he wants to throw at a Pro Day; he can do it at Florida State. That's where he wanted to be. I will have Kizer throw to the ND guys, until someone can prove that this is not permissible. I have no idea why it wouldn't be. It doesn't affect his amateur status one iota.
 

BobbyMac

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For those who think eG did ND wrong:

At the time it looked like the Irish would be left with an inexperienced starter and an even more inexperienced back up. When MZ went down at UVa, the villagers had their pitchforks and torches raised towards the staff and the fans who supported EG leaving and all appeared lost.

...and then DeShone Kizer happened. So in the end EG's decision was best for the program.
 

kmoose

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For those who think eG did ND wrong:

At the time it looked like the Irish would be left with an inexperienced starter and an even more inexperienced back up. When MZ went down at UVa, the villagers had their pitchforks and torches raised towards the staff and the fans who supported EG leaving and all appeared lost.

...and then DeShone Kizer happened. So in the end EG's decision was best for the program.

Just for the record........ I don't think he did anything wrong, nor do I think that he screwed ND. It's not about "butt-hurt" for me. I'm simply saying that I don't think the fact that he is an ND Grad is any more or less important than the fact that he quit on the team. ND can simply use one of the QBs on their own roster to throw to the guys.
 

Shamrock Theories

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Just for the record........ I don't think he did anything wrong, nor do I think that he screwed ND. It's not about "butt-hurt" for me. I'm simply saying that I don't think the fact that he is an ND Grad is any more or less important than the fact that he quit on the team. ND can simply use one of the QBs on their own roster to throw to the guys.

.........No

And personally I think EG throwing for them is a bit weird.

Someone asked above, but why isn't he throwing at FSU's pro day? Makes no sense.
 

stlnd01

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For those who think eG did ND wrong:

At the time it looked like the Irish would be left with an inexperienced starter and an even more inexperienced back up. When MZ went down at UVa, the villagers had their pitchforks and torches raised towards the staff and the fans who supported EG leaving and all appeared lost.

...and then DeShone Kizer happened. So in the end EG's decision was best for the program.

And, ironically, not best for EG. He would've been the guy at ND after Week Two if he'd stuck. And probably performed better than he did at FSU.
But anyway.
I don't see why this Pro Day thing has people so bent out of shape.
 

ND NYC

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And, ironically, not best for EG. He would've been the guy at ND after Week Two if he'd stuck. And probably performed better than he did at FSU.
But anyway.
I don't see why this Pro Day thing has people so bent out of shape.

agree
 

ulukinatme

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So Cody Riggs is a quitter too?

I think that's a different circumstance. Cody made a smart move. He saw there was a need here at Corner, he could make the move, and he arguably raised his Draft stock (Even if he went undrafted, he was picked up later).

Anyone familiar with Jimbo could probably see that he wasn't going to get Golson closer to the NFL. He was going to take the load off his shoulders and reduce his involvement in the offense, basically make him a game manager rather than a play maker. It was successful for awhile, but Golson never got into the Heisman race despite less turnovers. It was good for us in the long run that Golson leave, but it was not a smart move on his part. He stood a much better chance showcasing his abilities in a BK offense than playing at FSU.
 

irishfan

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I think that's a different circumstance. Cody made a smart move. He saw there was a need here at Corner, he could make the move, and he arguably raised his Draft stock (Even if he went undrafted, he was picked up later).

Anyone familiar with Jimbo could probably see that he wasn't going to get Golson closer to the NFL. He was going to take the load off his shoulders and reduce his involvement in the offense, basically make him a game manager rather than a play maker. It was successful for awhile, but Golson never got into the Heisman race despite less turnovers. It was good for us in the long run that Golson leave, but it was not a smart move on his part. He stood a much better chance showcasing his abilities in a BK offense than playing at FSU.

His last three starting QBs at FSU all were drafted in the 1st round. BK got Tony Pike drafted in the 6th round....and that's it for QBs. I don't know why a QB would pick Kelly over Jimbo...
 

BobbyMac

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If DK and BW would have imploded then I could see the grief.

He left, he quit on the team. True, sorta. The term "quit" is being used in the pejorative here when it doesn't need to be. When you quit drinking or smoking it's a good thing, when you "quit" in sports it is almost exclusively tied to losing or something that effected the team in a negative way. History has shown EG did not cause such events, in fact the opposite is evidently true for ND. EG simply "moved on" in this case and his degree gives him the flexibility to "move back" for pro day IMO.

The grad transfer rule allows this and makes it ok. In fact, because of how ND allows grad students to play a 5th year by invitation and basically forces others to seek playing times elsewhere, I think this situation is a great way to show other Grad/5th year players (as well as their families, recruits families and the media) that ND has their graduate's backs and they are family till the end.

That's my take at least.
 

ulukinatme

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His last three starting QBs at FSU all were drafted in the 1st round. BK got Tony Pike drafted in the 6th round....and that's it for QBs. I don't know why a QB would pick Kelly over Jimbo...

Jimbo knows how to get the most out of his QBs, but he doesn't force them into situations that expose their weaknesses. I called it after the transfer, and I believe others did too, that Fisher was going to take the load off Golson's shoulders to reduce the turnovers. He did just that, but in doing so he made Golson more of a game manager and not a play maker. As far as what Fisher products have done, who has been successful in the NFL? Christian Ponder? EJ Manuel? Josh Booty? JaMarcus Russell? Too soon to evaluate Jameis. My point is he may have gotten a bunch of QBs drafted, but they haven't exactly panned out as superstars at the next level. He's worked with far more talent than BK too between his stints at LSU and Florida State. BK is just starting to work with some talented players between Malik, Wimbush, and Kizer. Golson was arguably a 4 star by some services, and he certainly showed flashes of brilliance at times, but the turnover issue couldn't be cleaned up. I don't recall what Tony Pike's recruitment was like, but I'm guessing BK is getting far better talent to work with now than he did at Cincinnati and Central Michigan.
 

GowerND11

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Jimbo knows how to get the most out of his QBs, but he doesn't force them into situations that expose their weaknesses. I called it after the transfer, and I believe others did too, that Fisher was going to take the load off Golson's shoulders to reduce the turnovers. He did just that, but in doing so he made Golson more of a game manager and not a play maker. As far as what Fisher products have done, who has been successful in the NFL? Christian Ponder? EJ Manuel? Josh Booty? JaMarcus Russell? Too soon to evaluate Jameis. My point is he may have gotten a bunch of QBs drafted, but they haven't exactly panned out as superstars at the next level. He's worked with far more talent than BK too between his stints at LSU and Florida State. BK is just starting to work with some talented players between Malik, Wimbush, and Kizer. Golson was arguably a 4 star by some services, and he certainly showed flashes of brilliance at times, but the turnover issue couldn't be cleaned up. I don't recall what Tony Pike's recruitment was like, but I'm guessing BK is getting far better talent to work with now than he did at Cincinnati and Central Michigan.

And let's face it. EG needed a season as a playmaker with limited turnovers to really improve his stock. Being a game manager didn't move the needle at all.
 

GoldenDome

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I think that's a different circumstance. Cody made a smart move. He saw there was a need here at Corner, he could make the move, and he arguably raised his Draft stock (Even if he went undrafted, he was picked up later).

Anyone familiar with Jimbo could probably see that he wasn't going to get Golson closer to the NFL. He was going to take the load off his shoulders and reduce his involvement in the offense, basically make him a game manager rather than a play maker. It was successful for awhile, but Golson never got into the Heisman race despite less turnovers. It was good for us in the long run that Golson leave, but it was not a smart move on his part. He stood a much better chance showcasing his abilities in a BK offense than playing at FSU.

Players transfer all the time for a multitude of reasons. Whether you agree with the decision or not is beside the point, players and coaches leaving a program does not make them "quitters" at all. I find it quite hypocritical to say that Riggs situation is "different" simply because he made a better decision in your own perception.
 

kmoose

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.........No

And personally I think EG throwing for them is a bit weird.

Someone asked above, but why isn't he throwing at FSU's pro day? Makes no sense.

That was me that asked. And yes, ND will just use Kizer to throw to those guys. If you know of some reason why they can't, then I wish you would share it with us all. It's only the 4th time or so I have asked someone is saying that they can't to provide a source for their assertion.....
 

ulukinatme

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Players transfer all the time for a multitude of reasons. Whether you agree with the decision or not is beside the point, players and coaches leaving a program does not make them "quitters" at all. I find it quite hypocritical to say that Riggs situation is "different" simply because he made a better decision in your own perception.

I haven't called Golson a quitter, at least I don't think I have. I do think he made a poor decision if he had NFL aspirations, and obviously he did. Fisher wasn't going to make him a superstar, he was going to minimize his weaknesses and limit his contributions. He didn't make him a better quarterback, he just took a lot of the offense off his plate. Did BK give him too much? Maybe. Some guys flourish, others flounder. DeShone and Malik both did pretty well. BK has had success with other QBs.

I do believe Riggs situation was different. Both Golson and Riggs probably stood a good chance of losing snaps if they stayed at the their previous stop (I think Cody was already losing snaps at Florida before the transfer, but I don't recall exactly. In any case, Florida was tanking as a team while we were getting better). Maybe I'm looking at this through blue and gold colored glasses, but given he was looking for more snaps, a stable team, and a bigger spotlight I think Riggs made a smart decision to leave. In any case, we weren't going to limit his abilities, if anything we were going to let him ball out cause we really needed him. Golson's transfer was doomed to failure from the start though. He probably would have had a better chance sticking out the QB competition, because he would have likely still gotten snaps anyway if not winning the job outright. He would have gotten to continue to showcase his playmaker abilities, and he wouldn't have to learn a new offense in a short period of time.

I said this on 9/2 last year: "My guess is Jimbo is going to ask Everett to do a lot less than BK did, and he'll rely on his running backs more which will help reduce EG's turnovers. Then the talking heads will be like 'Jimbo is the QB Whisperer! He cured Golson's turnover problem!'" It did work out like that for about half a season, but Golson was never really the talk of college football, nobody was really talking about him. It was the Dalvin Cook show. So, maybe they weren't calling Fisher the QB Whisperer, but I knew then that Golson was walking into a reduced role. I don't think there was going to be a scenario where he was going to just suddenly fix the turnover issues and still be the focal point of the offense. Thus, he stood little chance of actually improving his draft stock in the transfer.
 

rocket66

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'11 SC QB Everett Golson (FSU transfer)

I'm riding with the theory that he wants to be at ND's pro day because ND has the greatest draft buzz right now outside of OSU. Makes perfect sense to me.

He's still a quitter though. No other way around it. Wouldn't be surprised if that is a huge knock on his scouting profile that he shied away from competition from a couple unproven redshirt guys.


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dad4aa

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Cannot believe how some of you compare Elmer to Golson. The dumbest thing I have read on this board in awhile. Elmer is graduating and not turning pro. He played football at ND and earned his degree...a true student athlete. Golson transferred to FSU rather than face a challenge and earn the start.

And in regards to Riggs...he attended OUR pro day. He did not go back to his former school and attend their pro day.
 

stlnd01

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Wouldn't be surprised if that is a huge knock on his scouting profile that he shied away from competition from a couple unproven redshirt guys.

I'd think that's an enormous red flag for anyone considering drafting him. The guy's got loads of talent, but he does not seem mentally tough enough.
And Elmer's a completely different situation. Not a fair comp.
But I don't see what harm is possibly done to Notre Dame by taking the high road and letting Golson do our Pro Day. I'm more curious why he's not doing FSU's.
 

kmoose

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Cannot believe how some of you compare Elmer to Golson. The dumbest thing I have read on this board in awhile. Elmer is graduating and not turning pro. He played football at ND and earned his degree...a true student athlete. Golson transferred to FSU rather than face a challenge and earn the start.

And in regards to Riggs...he attended OUR pro day. He did not go back to his former school and attend their pro day.

To be fair.............. Golson graduated and earned his degree as well. The difference, for me, is that Elmer didn't quit to go play football somewhere else.
 

dad4aa

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To be fair.............. Golson graduated and earned his degree as well. The difference, for me, is that Elmer didn't quit to go play football somewhere else.

I guess I should have emphasized that in my point since that is what I was referring to as well. Elmer played football to get a good degree and career. He didn't quit on the team because he was getting beat out by another player and look for an easier option to play football. Golson quit when he lost his playing time instead of staying and fighting to earn it back.
 

D-BOE34

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I will never understand hate for EG. He left after trying to win the job. To me it is clear he was not going to win the job so he used what options he had and went after 1 year of football. So what...

At least he can say he is an ND graduate and has a degree in hand. He didn't have to come back when he did but he made up for his mistakes. Maybe we should look at the fact that he right what he did wrong and then moved on. It was the ultimate goodbye to his biggest mistake probably in life to date. He made up for his mistakes. I would bet right now he doesn't but at some point in time he will point to the ND degree as his ultimate accomplishment over all things in life.

Get off his shit. He can come throw the ball around ND field house. So what. Who does it hurt? I am sure the WR's wouldn't mind someone they have caught passes from over someone they never played catch with.
 

kmoose

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I will never understand hate for EG. He left after trying to win the job. To me it is clear he was not going to win the job so he used what options he had and went after 1 year of football. So what...

At least he can say he is an ND graduate and has a degree in hand. He didn't have to come back when he did but he made up for his mistakes. Maybe we should look at the fact that he right what he did wrong and then moved on. It was the ultimate goodbye to his biggest mistake probably in life to date. He made up for his mistakes. I would bet right now he doesn't but at some point in time he will point to the ND degree as his ultimate accomplishment over all things in life.

Get off his shit. He can come throw the ball around ND field house. So what. Who does it hurt? I am sure the WR's wouldn't mind someone they have caught passes from over someone they never played catch with.

It's not about hate for EG. It's about why doesn't he participate in his own Pro Day? They've never played catch with DeShone Kizer, or Malik Zaire, or Brandon Wimbush?
 

D-BOE34

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It's not about hate for EG. It's about why doesn't he participate in his own Pro Day? They've never played catch with DeShone Kizer, or Malik Zaire, or Brandon Wimbush?

From what I have read, an active player (someone still on team) cannot throw. Same reason why past QBs came back to throw at pro day. Not to be drafted but to help players they played with before graduating. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
 

D-BOE34

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It's not about hate for EG. It's about why doesn't he participate in his own Pro Day? They've never played catch with DeShone Kizer, or Malik Zaire, or Brandon Wimbush?

Not to pick on your post but it addresses both my points.,,

Hate is exactly what it is IMO. He spent his time here, he came back after letting the University down and he made right what he did wrong. He is a ND graduate as much as the next guy. He will forever walk around this world as just that. Because we as fans didn't like that he chose his final year at FSU over ND he should be outed?

Come on...
 

kmoose

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From what I have read, an active player (someone still on team) cannot throw. Same reason why past QBs came back to throw at pro day. Not to be drafted but to help players they played with before graduating. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Where have you read that? So a team without a Senior QB can't work out their receivers?
 
K

koonja

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Is there a single ND grad who knows what it takes to be one, who doesn't think Golson should be let back to throw some footballs on campus?

Serious question.
 

ulukinatme

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Who threw to Maurice Stovall in 2005? Maybe that's going to far back. I chose Maurice because he was gone before Quinn. Tate had Clausen leave at the same time. Maybe Floyd? I want to say Tommy threw for Floyd....nope, just checked, Clausen came back and threw to him according to archives.

I can't see why there would be an issue for an active roster QB to throw to our departing receivers. What does he stand to gain? It's not like the QB is getting drafted that year. Looking back through some other archives, John Carlson caught passes from Ron Powlus in 2008! Wow, talking about going back! That was over 10 years since Powlus last suited up for us. I tried to search other years, but other than Floyd and Carlson the archives didn't really spell out what QB threw to a receiver unless it was a year where we had a QB in the draft, then they were tossing to the receivers obviously. It looks like active QBs can't throw to our guys?
 

BGIF

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Who threw to Maurice Stovall in 2005? Maybe that's going to far back. I chose Maurice because he was gone before Quinn. Tate had Clausen leave at the same time. Maybe Floyd? I want to say Tommy threw for Floyd....nope, just checked, Clausen came back and threw to him according to archives.

I can't see why there would be an issue for an active roster QB to throw to our departing receivers. What does he stand to gain? It's not like the QB is getting drafted that year. Looking back through some other archives, John Carlson caught passes from Ron Powlus in 2008! Wow, talking about going back! That was over 10 years since Powlus last suited up for us. I tried to search other years, but other than Floyd and Carlson the archives didn't really spell out what QB threw to a receiver unless it was a year where we had a QB in the draft, then they were tossing to the receivers obviously. It looks like active QBs can't throw to our guys?

I looked them up also as I could only recall Powlus throwing.
 

BGIF

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There's about 100 posts in this urinating contest but apparently only two guys, uluk and D-Boe, spent any time actually looking for an answer or rule instead of expounding on Golson's degree, or color of his inner jersey, or ND's vision of his inner jersey. I'm suprised GB didn't bring up the ND Man chestnut but, of course, that might compromise about 2 dozen other threads where he cheers for Big Blue as the originator of everything.

Keep in mind this is an NFL Event. It's about players that have declared. That have agents. They are going pro IF they can get a job.

Think about it. What NFL Event can an undergrad participate in?

I tried to find rules but found only a couple of articles one for 2008, one for 2011, and one 2014.


Location, Location, Location

NFL Rule Costs UNH Quarterback Golden Opportunity – CONNECTICUT SPORTS LAW

Ricky Santos, the record-setting quarterback for the University of New Hampshire, was denied an opportunity to display his skills in front of NFL coaches and scouts at Boston College’s Pro Day last week. The NFL apparently requires that a player eligible for Pro Day either attend college in the same state or live within a certain distance (30 miles, I believe) from the school at which the particular Pro Day is held.


I read a similar description in the 2011 article which had a lot of info about the event.

The ins and outs of pro days | National Football Post
Gabe Gabriel Posted March 3, 2011

Now that the Combine is over, what happens for the next four to five weeks? The month of March has pro days starting next week. There will be workouts scheduled Monday through Friday each week, with some days having as many as 8-10 scheduled on the same day all over the country. Because so many workouts are crammed into such a short period, it is virtually impossible to attend every one. Because of that problem the APT (Association of Professional Teams) was formed about seven or eight years ago to cover all the pro days. The APT is a group of about 24 NFL clubs, and each club is responsible for seven to eight schools to cover during the pro day season. The club would send one of its scouts to the assigned school to collect all the data from the workout. The information gathered would then be sent to the other member clubs of the APT. Anything that is measured is shared information. It includes the height, weight, arm length and hand span. It also includes 10, 20 and 40-yard times as well as the times for the 20-yard shuttle, 3-cone drill, standing long jump and vertical jump.

Probably the first question you might ask is “Can I trust that the information is accurate?” You have to trust the information and having been part of the APT for seven years I was sure that the information was in fact accurate. Yes, this is a competitive business, but at the same time the heights, weights and speeds is basic information and all the clubs have the same problem of getting to all the different pro days in such a short period of time. The formation of the APT made our jobs a little easier.

Almost every pro day is taped by the video staff of the school. What many clubs do is buy the tape if they can’t attend the workout. That way you can still watch certain players that they are interested in working out. The colleges do a great job of editing these tapes and getting them out to the clubs within a few days of the workouts.

Many of the players who attended the Combine do not do the measurable drills at their pro day if they did a good job with those events while at the Combine. If they felt they could do better they would of course do the drills over. That’s why it’s important to work out at the Combine. If a player felt he had a less than typical performance at the Combine, he has a chance to “redeem” himself at his pro day. If he chose not to work out in Indy and then has a subpar workout at his school he has no chance to “redeem” himself. There is just not enough time. I have always advised players to work out at the Combine for that reason.

The one thing that is important about the pro days is the position drill segment. At the Combine, there are only about six to seven different position drills that each player does. These drills have been basically the same drills for years and have become “learned” because they have been practiced over and over again for weeks or months leading up to the Combine. At the pro day, coaches have their own set of drills that they want prospects to perform. Because the player has not had time to “rehearse” these drills it becomes an important part of the evaluation process. The coach not only wants to see the prospect do the drills correctly but he also wants to see how the player “takes” coaching. He wants to see if he has to explain the drills over and over or if the player “gets it” the first time. This is important because you can find out if the player is a “rep guy.” Over the years, I have seen many players who performed well at the Combine “bomb” at his pro day because he hasn’t had the chance to practice the drills beforehand.

While the pro days aren’t as important for the kids who were invited to the Combine, they are very important for those players who were not invited. It gives the clubs the opportunity to get verified measurables on these players and it also gives the players an opportunity to compete against the kids who went to the Combine. Every year there are 30 or more players who were not invited to the Combine who get drafted. Many of these players go on to have great careers, so the pro day is a very important day for them.

If a club has a strong interest in a player they might not even go to his pro day, but schedule a “private” workout for another date. They do this because they will have an opportunity to spend “quality” time with the player. They may want to find out more about his personality or his ability to learn. Many times a coach will take the player into a meeting room and put him on “the board.” Here, a coach may ask the player to diagram some plays and walk him through the responsibilities he had for the play. The coach may also teach the player some of his club’s plays or schemes and then test the player on what was just taught to him. All of this is very important in putting together a final grade and determining if you want that player on your club.

An interesting part of the pro days at the major schools is that there may be kids from the smaller schools in that state also working out. With so many workouts scheduled in such a short period of time it has become very difficult to get to many of the small schools. For this reason, the NFL allows players from lower level schools to work out at the large schools within that state. For example, a player from Eastern Illinois or Western Illinois can work out at the Northwestern or Illinois pro day. At the same time, a player from Northwestern cannot workout at Illinois’ pro day. The large school has to agree to let the small school players work out but in most cases it’s not a problem. Often the small school prospects work out after the major school prospects are done. It makes for a long day for scouts but it gives the clubs valuable information as well as saving valuable time. It’s also a value to the smaller school prospects because the small school may not have the indoor facilities that many of the major schools have. With this, the player gets to work out under very good conditions.


https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/04/06/sunfoot/KnoVB3egiII1fjZfX6YJEK/story.html
By Ben Volin GLOBE STAFF APRIL 06, 2014

Pro Days garner the NFL headlines in March and April, but the reality is these Pro Day workouts will mean very little to teams in their evaluation of the two prospects. Quarterback workouts, especially, are more sideshow than legitimate football event. The workout is run by the quarterback’s personal coach, the throws are scripted and practiced several times in advance, and the player isn’t throwing against a defense.

“It’s a media sideshow,” said Greg Gabriel, {who wrote the article above} the former college scouting director for the Bears and NFL scout for 30 years. “You don’t put a whole lot into it, other than obviously he’s got to complete the passes and you want him to throw a tight ball. But it’s not football. It’s playing against air.”
That’s not to say Pro Days don’t have any value. They are one of the few times coaches and scouts can get a close look and have personal interaction with prospects — NFL position coaches always run the Pro Day drills for every position other than quarterback.

While Pro Days get all of the attention, it’s the private workouts afterward that really matter.
 
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