'11 CA LB Joe Schmidt (Scholarship Earned)

[dublinirish]

Exactly. The current sorry state of the defense is what we all expected pre-season. They over-achieved through the first 8 games in no small part due to BvG and Schmidt. But Joe was the lynchpin for the front-7, and his injury has caused everything else to fall apart.

I'd love to see also a breakdown of Jaylon's stats this year playing with/without Joe and see the difference.

 

[NCND]

I like Schmidt and he was a pleasant surprise this year. But is this really where we are, rationalizing the sh!tty performance of the defense on this single player? What then explains UNC, the 2nd half against FSU, and the Navy game while he was in there?

Ding, Ding, Ding..

 

[wizards8507]

I like Schmidt and he was a pleasant surprise this year. But is this really where we are, rationalizing the sh!tty performance of the defense on this single walk-on player? What then explains UNC, the 2nd half against FSU, and the Navy game while he was in there?

FIFY and agreed. "Next man in," right? It's a cute slogan for the weight room t-shirts but it has to be time to start living it, right?

 

[GoIrish41]

This might not be the place for this conversation, but who's dropping the ball in terms of vocal and schematic leadership with Schmidt out? My gut tells me it's Jaylon but he's still young so it's hard to blame him.

Van Gorder?

 

[Old Man Mike]

I mentioned in another thread that our defense has become a defense with no middle. While this is largely due to Joe's [and Grace's] injury, that factor also exasperates the bad safety play of Redfield and Shumate [football-smarts-wise] so badly that BVG felt that he had to try a Collinsworth Tranquill combination back there vs. Northwestern --- which because Austin can't go full out many plays, and Drue isn't any better than Max or Elijah at figuring "fits", didn't work either. Then add Jarron, with whatever mental or physical thing it is that's causing him to be a stand-up-straight/no-push DT, and the entire center of the defense has plunged REALLY low into mediocrity --- it is frankly astounding to me that BVG has been able to hold anything together at all. --- especially with our all-to-giving offense.

Without Sheldon I can't imagine what BVGs going to do.

I do know one thing: IE commentators will bitch to high heaven about BVG and will call him a poor coach who is not up to the challenge --- and the rest of us will have to rapidly scroll past that sort of crap.

 

[dublinirish]

I mentioned in another thread that our defense has become a defense with no middle. While this is largely due to Joe's [and Grace's] injury, that factor also exasperates the bad safety play of Redfield and Shumate [football-smarts-wise] so badly that BVG felt that he had to try a Collinsworth Tranquill combination back there vs. Northwestern --- which because Austin can't go full out many plays, and Drue isn't any better than Max or Elijah at figuring "fits", didn't work either. Then add Jarron, with whatever mental or physical thing it is that's causing him to be a stand-up-straight/no-push DT, and the entire center of the defense has plunged REALLY low into mediocrity --- it is frankly astounding to me that BVG has been able to hold anything together at all. --- especially with our all-to-giving offense.

Without Sheldon I can't imagine what BVGs going to do.

I do know one thing: IE commentators will bitch to high heaven about BVG and will call him a poor coach who is not up to the challenge --- and the rest of us will have to rapidly scroll past that sort of crap.

IMO he's gonna need to go to BK and tell him the offense needs to slow down and control the clock. ND doesn't have the horses on D right now and BK needs to do his best to keep them off the field.

 

[wizards8507]

I mentioned in another thread that our defense has become a defense with no middle. While this is largely due to Joe's [and Grace's] injury, that factor also exasperates the bad safety play of Redfield and Shumate [football-smarts-wise] so badly that BVG felt that he had to try a Collinsworth Tranquill combination back there vs. Northwestern --- which because Austin can't go full out many plays, and Drue isn't any better than Max or Elijah at figuring "fits", didn't work either. Then add Jarron, with whatever mental or physical thing it is that's causing him to be a stand-up-straight/no-push DT, and the entire center of the defense has plunged REALLY low into mediocrity --- it is frankly astounding to me that BVG has been able to hold anything together at all. --- especially with our all-to-giving offense.

Without Sheldon I can't imagine what BVGs going to do.

I do know one thing: IE commentators will bitch to high heaven about BVG and will call him a poor coach who is not up to the challenge --- and the rest of us will have to rapidly scroll past that sort of crap.

I don't pity BVG for the fact that our backups suck. It begs the question, WHY do our backups suck? We're not the only team on the planet with injuries, right? Ankles and knees and shoulders fail all the time in the game of football. Why does it seem like our defensive depth chart is only ever 1-deep?

 

[irishtrain]

I mentioned in another thread that our defense has become a defense with no middle. While this is largely due to Joe's [and Grace's] injury, that factor also exasperates the bad safety play of Redfield and Shumate [football-smarts-wise] so badly that BVG felt that he had to try a Collinsworth Tranquill combination back there vs. Northwestern --- which because Austin can't go full out many plays, and Drue isn't any better than Max or Elijah at figuring "fits", didn't work either. Then add Jarron, with whatever mental or physical thing it is that's causing him to be a stand-up-straight/no-push DT, and the entire center of the defense has plunged REALLY low into mediocrity --- it is frankly astounding to me that BVG has been able to hold anything together at all. --- especially with our all-to-giving offense.

Without Sheldon I can't imagine what BVGs going to do.

I do know one thing: IE commentators will bitch to high heaven about BVG and will call him a poor coach who is not up to the challenge --- and the rest of us will have to rapidly scroll past that sort of crap.

Anybody who doesn't think this guy hasnt done a A+ job this year doesn't know their #@$ from a hole in the wall. This defense looks as thin as I have ever seen a Notre Dame squad. No middle, no athleticism left (due to injuries/academics). L'ville will be ugly for the Irish. Petrino will run up the score if he can.

 

[koonja]

I mentioned in another thread that our defense has become a defense with no middle. While this is largely due to Joe's [and Grace's] injury, that factor also exasperates the bad safety play of Redfield and Shumate [football-smarts-wise] so badly that BVG felt that he had to try a Collinsworth Tranquill combination back there vs. Northwestern --- which because Austin can't go full out many plays, and Drue isn't any better than Max or Elijah at figuring "fits", didn't work either. Then add Jarron, with whatever mental or physical thing it is that's causing him to be a stand-up-straight/no-push DT, and the entire center of the defense has plunged REALLY low into mediocrity --- it is frankly astounding to me that BVG has been able to hold anything together at all. --- especially with our all-to-giving offense.

Without Sheldon I can't imagine what BVGs going to do.

I do know one thing: IE commentators will bitch to high heaven about BVG and will call him a poor coach who is not up to the challenge --- and the rest of us will have to rapidly scroll past that sort of crap.

Almost as predictable as the high and mighty posts certain commentators.

 

[irishog77]

Anybody who doesn't think this guy hasnt done a A+ job this year doesn't know their #@$ from a hole in the wall. This defense looks as thin as I have ever seen a Notre Dame squad. No middle, no athleticism left (due to injuries/academics). L'ville will be ugly for the Irish. Petrino will run up the score if he can.

So you expect Louisville to not skip a beat with their back-up QB, other injuries, and a general roster of 3-star players, but ND is doomed because of theirs?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I like Schmidt and he was a pleasant surprise this year. But is this really where we are, rationalizing the sh!tty performance of the defense on this single player? What then explains UNC, the 2nd half against FSU, and the Navy game while he was in there?

Were you expecting the 2012 defense at any point during this season? This defense was being held together by spit, bailing wire, and Schmidt. It was far from dominant, but much better than we expected coming into the season. Losing Schmidt caused everything else to fall apart.

And against FSU, our front-7 played very well. We shut down the Seminoles' rushing attack completely. How was Schmidt supposed to stop Winston from carving up our secondary in the 2nd half?

I don't pity BVG for the fact that our backups suck. It begs the question, WHY do our backups suck? We're not the only team on the planet with injuries, right? Ankles and knees and shoulders fail all the time in the game of football. Why does it seem like our defensive depth chart is only ever 1-deep?

These aren't new issues under Kelly. They've plagued NDFB for decades. Our inability to oversign, gray-shirt, accept JuCos, recruit 60% of the top 247 due to academic ineligibility, or keep our players from getting suspended for academic/ discipline issue makes roster management an impossible task. That's why we've virtually never started a season with anything close to a full healthy roster. Coaching at ND is truly playing on hard mode, because we're always self-sanctioning.

This season was particularly bad because a bunch of factors coincided to decimate our defensive depth-- we lost a ton of talent to the draft, injury and suspension pre-season, and then our bad luck was compounded by further injuries to critical personnel in season.

But let's continue blaming institutional problems on the only decent coach we've had in 20+ years.

 

[wizards8507]

But let's continue blaming institutional problems on the only decent coach we've had in 20+ years.

From the article that you posted yesterday:

However, we're past the point where Kelly gets credit for improving over the Davie/Willingham/Weis years. We just are and it's a crutch that really isn't applicable anymore.

Honestly, it's sad that the best we can say is "well at least we don't suck as bad as we used to when we REALLY REALLY REALLY sucked."

 

[NDRock]

This all just falls back on recruiting. A walk on LB should not have to be the lynchpin of your defense in year five.

 

[ND NYC]

spot on whiskey. reps

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Honestly, it's sad that the best we can say is "well at least we don't suck as bad as we used to when we REALLY REALLY REALLY sucked."

I don't disagree with anything Murtaugh wrote. But just as every casual football fan is inclined to blame everything on the QB (regardless of scheme and supporting cast), lots of posters here are trying to pin everything on Kelly (regardless of institutional problems).

He hasn't been perfect, but I don't think we can do better, and a lot of what is holding us back seems to be institutional rather than HC-related at this point.

 

[irishog77]

I certainly agree there obstacles at ND regarding recruiting/transfers/academics.

But oversigning, grayshirting, or allowing JUCO's does nothing once the season begins. Injuries and suspensions happen everywhere. Other teams can't magically bring in a new scholarship player in October or November when these things occur.

 

[RDU Irish]

Doesn't this all beg the question of defensive scheme? If someone like Joe Schmidt with arguably 5 star football IQ is necessary to make everyone around him functional don't we have to have a Plan B when he goes down? Is it really that hard to dumb things down and reduce the mental capacity and experience necessary to make our defense at least mediocre?

And if we are so obviously short of skill upfront on defense, couldn't we swing one of out dozen OL over to clog the middle on defense? I know OL is last stop to the bus stop but you can't tell me there isn't talent there to upgrade from Utopo or whoever else is moved up the 2 deep thanks to injuries.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

But oversigning, grayshirting, or allowing JUCO's does nothing once the season begins. Injuries and suspensions happen everywhere. Other teams can't magically bring in a new scholarship player in October or November when these things occur.

No, but those teams start their 1st game with a full roster of 85 healthy scholarship players available, so in-season injuries can be shrugged off. Even in a best case scenario, ND's defense was going to be very young this season due to the talent we lost to the draft and graduation. Then pre-season suspensions took away any margin for error we might have had during the season, and we got unlucky with where the injuries hit.

I'd also suggest that we're currently carrying 3-5 guys who would have taken a medical already at almost any other top program. They're effectively dead weight. When you look at our roster and consider how many of these guys have the talent and experience to play championship-level defense for us, it's pretty clear we're competing with one hand tied behind our backs.

Doesn't this all beg the question of defensive scheme? If someone like Joe Schmidt with arguably 5 star football IQ is necessary to make everyone around him functional don't we have to have a Plan B when he goes down? Is it really that hard to dumb things down and reduce the mental capacity and experience necessary to make our defense at least mediocre?

Joe Schmidt holding together the youngest defense Kelly has ever fielded at ND was likely Plan D or E. With our roster issues, I'm not sure we can fault Kelly for not having yet another contingency in case of his injury.

 

[gkIrish]

Joe Schmidt holding together the youngest defense Kelly has ever fielded at ND was likely Plan D or E. With our roster issues, I'm not sure we can fault Kelly for not having yet another contingency in case of his injury.

To push back a little, what do you suggest was plan A, B, and/or C going into the season?

 

[RDU Irish]

Not ideal but we knew it coming into the season. They had to know Morgan couldn't handle the calls. There have to be ways to dumb this down fast so the young athletes can perform at least mediocre football. And I think it falls more on BVG than BK. This level of garbage we are fielding is really hard to fathom.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

To push back a little, what do you suggest was plan A, B, and/or C going into the season?

Take your pick of the following:

• Russell, Williams, Moore and Hardy don't get suspended during fall camp.
• Collinsworth doesn't re-injure his shoulder during fall camp.
• Baratti doesn't re-injure his shoulder against Purdue.
• Grace, Hounshell and/or Councell recover well enough to contribute as seniors.
• One of Redfield or Shumate lives up to the hype.

I could go on.

Not ideal but we knew it coming into the season. They had to know Morgan couldn't handle the calls. There have to be ways to dumb this down fast so the young athletes can perform at least mediocre football. And I think it falls more on BVG than BK. This level of garbage we are fielding is really hard to fathom.

Like I posted above, a Schmidt-led defense full of underclassmen was likely far from Plan A, but it was working. It got us to 7-1 and a top-10 ranking before Schmidt went down, which is amazing in and of itself. How much blame do BK and BvG bear for not being able to pull yet another rabbit of the hat after Joe's injury?

 

[Emcee77]

To push back a little, what do you suggest was plan A, B, and/or C going into the season?

Jarrett Grace, Doug Randolph, Michael Deeb? Or maybe Councell in there somewhere? The former just never recovered; the latter three just aren't a fit for BVG at MLB, apparently. Crazy that with those guys on the roster, our MLB depth chart is former walk-on/true frosh/true frosh.

The Grace injury is really a killer. Kelly seemed optimistic every time he talked to the media that that leg would come around, but it just never did.

EDIT: OMG I forgot about Kendall Moore ... he may have figured into ILB depth too.

 

[gkIrish]

Jarrett Grace, Doug Randolph, Michael Deeb? Or maybe Councell in there somewhere? The former just never recovered; the latter three just aren't a fit for BVG at MLB, apparently. Crazy that with those guys on the roster, our MLB depth chart is former walk-on/true frosh/true frosh.

The Grace injury is really a killer. Kelly seemed optimistic every time he talked to the media that that leg would come around, but it just never did.

EDIT: OMG I forgot about Kendall Moore ... he may have figured into ILB depth too.

Take your pick of the following:

• Russell, Williams, Moore and Hardy don't get suspended during fall camp.
• Collinsworth doesn't re-injure his shoulder during fall camp.
• Baratti doesn't re-injure his shoulder against Purdue.
• Grace, Hounshell and/or Councell recover well enough to contribute.
• One of Redfield or Shumate lives up to the hype.

I could go on.

Forgive me for saying "going into the season." I really meant from Game 1 on....

All you both did was just list players that we basically never had available to us. I'm talking about the first snap against Rice. At that moment in time, Joe Schmidt was Plan A. The issue for me is that there doesn't seem to ever have been a Plan B.

Sure maybe against Rice and Purdue and Michigan we may have been screwed if we lost Schmidt. But by Week 4 or 5, it's unacceptable to me that there wasn't a player prepared to fill in as Plan B. Obviously Plan B's are never as good as plan A but they shouldn't be a disaster. If the remaining players aren't capable, that's on the staff. If the players aren't listening to the staff, that's still on the staff for recruiting shitheads, for lack of a better word.

 

[pumpdog20]

Suspensions and injuries that are causing massive depth issues along with learning a new scheme is what's causing this defense to look so shitty.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

All you both did was just list players that we basically never had available to us. I'm talking about the first snap against Rice. At that moment in time, Joe Schmidt was Plan A. The issue for me is that there doesn't seem to ever have been a Plan B.

Yes, Schmidt was Plan A against Rice. But he likely wasn't Plan A during spring camp. Hell, even I predicted that Joe would likely get the first few starts before getting passed by a convalescent Grace or an ascending Morgan. But that prediction didn't account for all the other bullsh!t that occurred outside of MLB, which forced a lot of youth onto the field, and consequently made Joe's leadership invaluable.

Sure maybe against Rice and Purdue and Michigan we may have been screwed if we lost Schmidt. But by Week 4 or 5, it's unacceptable to me that there wasn't a player prepared to fill in as Plan B. Obviously Plan B's are never as good as plan A but they shouldn't be a disaster. If the remaining players aren't capable, that's on the staff. If the players aren't listening to the staff, that's still on the staff for recruiting shitheads, for lack of a better word.

That makes sense if you only consider MLB in a vacuum, and not what was happening to the defense as a whole. I think Morgan could have stepped in and performed admirably if Jaylon had been ready to pick up the leadership slack. But asking him to step into a young front-7 with no on-field leadership and start making calls as a true freshman...

It becomes apparent pretty quickly in this analysis that graduation, injuries and suspension have forced us to field a (historically?) young defense. The mistakes that inevitably come with inexperienced players have been compounded by a new defensive scheme and unlucky injuries to the few healthy vets we had left.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Let's face it. This is all Grace's fault for breaking his leg!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Let's face it. This is all Grace's fault for breaking his leg!

I knew 'Bama was at the bottom of our current struggles! I blame Tommy.

 

[gkIrish]

That makes sense if you only consider MLB in a vacuum, and not what was happening to the defense as a whole. I think Morgan could have stepped in and performed admirably if Jaylon had been ready to pick up the leadership slack. But asking him to step into a young front-7 with no on-field leadership and start making calls as a true freshman...

It becomes apparent pretty quickly in this analysis that graduation, injuries and suspension have forced us to field a (historically?) young defense. The mistakes that inevitably come with inexperienced players have been compounded by a new defensive scheme and unlucky injuries to the few healthy vets we had left.

I just find it hard to believe that the loss of one player would cause the defense to go from decent to disaster. I just think the staff isn't preparing the players well enough and we are getting outcoached.

I keep thinking back to BK's comment that we ran one defense the entire rest of the game after Joe got hurt. What? Seriously, what? That's ridiculous and unacceptable.

 

[wizards8507]

Suspensions and injuries that are causing massive depth issues along with learning a new scheme is what's causing this defense to look so shitty.

Suspensions and injuries don't cause massive depth issues, they reveal massive depth issues.

 

[gkIrish]

Suspensions and injuries don't cause massive depth issues, they reveal massive depth issues.

To this point, for example, we have massive D-Line depth issues. Day and Cage getting hurt should not render our defense crippled. We all knew, or should have known, that the D-Line recruiting was very average at best. Cage is not talented/experienced enough to be getting meaningful minutes on a top 25 team. But he is, because we came into this season with no depth.