Occupy Wall St.

[phgreek]

Now, I know I'll get crap because the unemployment rate is rather high, but what if we lowered taxes on business and jacked up the minimum wage?

You'll be getting more money directly into the workers' hands, right? Rather than lose so much money that goes into the system and gets considerably smaller before it comes out as welfare.

thats the right way to look at it...I think. Now I always think minimum wage increases are never temporary...but if I had to choose, I'll always look for ways to get the most bang for the buck.

 

[phgreek]

Life isn't a game. The point is not to name a winner and a loser at the end. I hate the ideas of handicapping and giving everyone a trophy in sports. But in sports, if you don't have the ability to compete you don't have to play. Not so with life. I'm pretty sure that a poor person with a terminal illness would gladly trade their "spirit and desire for self-determination" for an affordable treatment of their condition. Your perspective is philosophically defensible, but it in practice it fails to account for some of life's sadder realities.

As far as being a drain on the system being the only justification for tax, that is not a justification for tax under and theory I've ever heard. If you don't agree with an ability-to-pay justification, there is also the fact that wealthy people derive far more benefits from government expenditures than the poor. The wealthy benefit disproportionately from the justice system and the military, which protect business interests of the wealthy at home and abroad, respectively.

Now, with that, I'd like to remove myself from this discussion and get back to football. Clearly, we have a philosophical disagreement in this thread, an that is OK. But neither side is going to convince the other to change their mind, and everyone has gotten a chance to explain and argue on behalf of their position.

I think it just comes down to what each of us think the role of government is...tough decisions in there for sure, and there is always the need to look at certain situations a little differently than one's philosophical disposition would dictate...agree, on to football...I gotta go root for Michigan now...EEEEEW!

 

[kmoose]

what if we lowered taxes on business and jacked up the minimum wage?

You'd have runaway inflation. Unless you instituted Federal price controls, in which case you would have a completely different set of idiots camping out in the parks of major cities all over the country.

 

[mgriff]

I don't understand why anyone who supports some of this movement is vilified on here. Ultimately, corporate interests have taken over our elected government. That is what this all started over; Wall St. having too much influence in the government (Treasury/Goldman anyone?) and it's become distorted and polluted since the beginning just like the Tea Party. The way the Tea Party was started was at a rally for Ron Paul, and then mainstream Republicans got in and completely took it over. I mean, there are still those underlying points that are agreed upon, but these other disagreements are fragmenting the real problem which was the reason for both movements--corruption and waste in the government.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Yes. All poor people are just lazy. Conversely, all rich people work very hard, are productive job creators, and have earned every dollar they have.

You've nailed it.

It's just that simple. If this was only written on page 1, we would have saved hundreds of posts.

 

[BeauBenken]

You'd have runaway inflation. Unless you instituted Federal price controls, in which case you would have a completely different set of idiots camping out in the parks of major cities all over the country.

Why?

 

[dshans]

While I find much of this discussion fascinating – for many reason – I'll pass on vigorously participating. I'd rather not get the boot for expressing my opinions. Haters will be haters, idiots will be idiots; monied, smug, selfish and powerful bastages will be monied, smug, selfish and powerful bastages.

'Nuff said. I've already exceeded my "pass." I'm a talkative and opinionated Irishman and an inveterate and unapologetic "liberal" with "for the least these" sensibilities. With great privilege comes great responsibility.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

While I find much of this discussion fascinating – for many reason – I'll pass on vigorously participating. I'd rather not get the boot for expressing my opinions. Haters will be haters, idiots will be idiots; monied, smug, selfish and powerful bastages will be monied, smug, selfish and powerful bastages.

'Nuff said. I've already exceeded my "pass." I'm a talkative and opinionated Irishman and an inveterate and unapologetic "liberal" with "for the least these" sensibilities. With great privilege comes great responsibility.

Damn hippie. You must live in Loring Park.

 

[ACamp1900]

post.


(I guess now we can shut down the thread and complain about biased posting and such.)

 

[phgreek]

Why?

beat me to it...

Inflation has many causes...printing money w/o economic basis for doing so comes to mind....not sure why bypassing the gov. with disposable income, and in effect decreasing the cost basis for products and services in the market place would cause inflation...

 

[BobD]

I strongly disagree. No serious tax scholar advocates a flat tax. The flat tax is an idea championed solely by politically motivated wingnuts. It sounds good, especially to angry white people, but it wouldn't work and it is not more "fair" than a progressive tax. The federal income tax has always been progressive, and is less progressive now than it has ever been.

I do agree with you that we should try to close some of the loopholes in tax code. I also agree that social policy should not be implemented through the tax code. But in terms of a flat tax, not only would it not work but I find it morally objectionable. Those most able to pay should pay more. I fail to see how it is fair that a person that makes the $30K a year is asked by his government to make the same sacrifice as someone who makes $30M a year. I question the sanity of anyone who considers that fair.

You surprised me with this reply Rhode, I usually look forward to your posts. You offer great opinions and insights, even if I don't always agree with all of them, I usually learn something (I'm not very well educated, so I like hearing advise from those that are) and you strike me as very level headed.

"no serious tax scholar advocates a flat tax"....as opposed to a comedic tax scholar? You know as well as I, there are tax experts on both sides of this fence.

"It sounds good, especially to angry white people"......seriously bud? Your going to throw a race card into a tax discussion? I think you may be the angry one here?

I think a flat tax would work tremendously well, while I have no proof, I offer this as an argument: Both the wealthy and the poor both hate the idea, that means we are on to something! It's time for John Q. Middleclass to take back control of this B!tch!

We can demand more of the wealthy and help the poor.

 

[phgreek]

post.


(I guess now we can shut down the thread and complain about biased posting and such.)

...oh thank god...

I can retire now...

 

[dshans]

Damn hippie. You must live in Loring Park.

Close. I live about 2.5 miles from there in the Powderhorn Park neighborhood, noted for its May Day Festival, Fourth of July fireworks, Art Festival in August and mid-winter Art Sled "competition".

 

[Rhode Irish]

You surprised me with this reply Rhode, I usually look forward to your posts. You offer great opinions and insights, even if I don't always agree with all of them, I usually learn something (I'm not very well educated, so I like hearing advise from those that are) and you strike me as very level headed.

"no serious tax scholar advocates a flat tax"....as opposed to a comedic tax scholar? You know as well as I, there are tax experts on both sides of this fence.

"It sounds good, especially to angry white people"......seriously bud? Your going to throw a race card into a tax discussion? I think you may be the angry one here?

I think a flat tax would work tremendously well, while I have no proof, I offer this as an argument: Both the wealthy and the poor both hate the idea, that means we are on to something! It's time for John Q. Middleclass to take back control of this B!tch!

We can demand more of the wealthy and help the poor.

You're right. I get a little fired up about this stuff, and maybe my resulting word choice was a little over the top. I feel how I feel about it; sometimes I lose patience with trying to articulate it perfectly. You're right to call me out here. The way I presented my points was unnecessary.

 

[BobD]

I was all worked up after watching the news today and planned to try refire this thread tonight, but after reading some of the Sebelius cuts funding to Catholic programs thread, I'm just going to close it and stick with football, or maybe the Kate vs Alyssa thread for a few days. Maybe next week we can start a thread on something easy to resolve, like peace in the Middle East.

 

[BobD]

I've tried to sympathize but I'm sick of these idiot losers. I don't care if we have to tear gas them, spray them with fire hoses or shoot them with rubber bullets, this needs to end now. They have no message, no organization, no leadership, no unity and are a waste of time and tax payer funds.

 

[mgriff]

I've tried to sympathize but I'm sick of these idiot losers. I don't care if we have to tear gas them, spray them with fire hoses or shoot them with rubber bullets, this needs to end now. They have no message, no organization, no leadership, no unity and are a waste of time and tax payer funds.

Actually they have a lot in common with the Tea Party. Both movements started over large government and their dedication to the corporations which finance them. I find it astonishing as a 26 year old shielded from the job market. But looking in from the outside, I understand why they are protesting. We were told for twenty years to go to college and get a degree so we wouldn't have to work some **** job. Now that some have done so, they are entitled *******s because of what they've been molded by their entire lives? The economy is in the shitter because over the last several decades, financial legislation (Glass-Steagall, et al) was dismantled by administrations from both parties. Now we have a **** economy because our government has been pandering to lobbyists for decades and when the youth get up in arms about it, we're simply being "losers" and "degenerates." I think the older generations need to look in the mirror and realize we are in this economic predicament because when it was their time to perform their civic duties, they did no such thing. Now we have a culture obsessed with celebrity and gossip, which distracts from the real issues that have bearing on our lives.

Now I'm sure there are delinquents at this movement no doubt, but the original message gets perverted by the mass media and their consumers. This Occupy movement is just like the Tea Party. It had no political affiliation but then the Dems claimed it, and it was the same way with the Tea Party--it was for Ron Paul, not the Republican party. Yet both movements are hijacked by the mainstream to maintain the status quo, making people think there is a choice between the left and the right, when in all reality, they only disagree on incendiary issues which are meant to divide and conquer the populace--so to speak. This wasn't an attack on you or your opinion, just me offering mine off the last comment in the thread. And now, I'll leave you with a genius.

George Carlin - It's a big club and you ain't in it - YouTube

 

[BobD]

Actually they have a lot in common with the Tea Party. Both movements started over large government and their dedication to the corporations which finance them. I find it astonishing as a 26 year old shielded from the job market. But looking in from the outside, I understand why they are protesting. We were told for twenty years to go to college and get a degree so we wouldn't have to work some **** job. Now that some have done so, they are entitled *******s because of what they've been molded by their entire lives? The economy is in the shitter because over the last several decades, financial legislation (Glass-Steagall, et al) was dismantled by administrations from both parties. Now we have a **** economy because our government has been pandering to lobbyists for decades and when the youth get up in arms about it, we're simply being "losers" and "degenerates." I think the older generations need to look in the mirror and realize we are in this economic predicament because when it was their time to perform their civic duties, they did no such thing. Now we have a culture obsessed with celebrity and gossip, which distracts from the real issues that have bearing on our lives.

Now I'm sure there are delinquents at this movement no doubt, but the original message gets perverted by the mass media and their consumers. This Occupy movement is just like the Tea Party. It had no political affiliation but then the Dems claimed it, and it was the same way with the Tea Party--it was for Ron Paul, not the Republican party. Yet both movements are hijacked by the mainstream to maintain the status quo, making people think there is a choice between the left and the right, when in all reality, they only disagree on incendiary issues which are meant to divide and conquer the populace--so to speak. This wasn't an attack on you or your opinion, just me offering mine off the last comment in the thread. And now, I'll leave you with a genius.

George Carlin - It's a big club and you ain't in it - YouTube

If the protesters had representatives like you out there with them, people including me, might listen. You should see the sh!t going on out here in California. These idiots here are dumber than door knobs. They are out there because they're a bunch of hippie wanna-be's and think it's cool to be there. They don't understand the economy, I bet they don't even have checking accounts. A TV reporter just asked three protesters why they were there trying to shut down the Port of Oakland, one said he was "there to be heard" but didn't elaborate, one said she was there because "royalist are killing the planet" and the last one yelled "marijuana is medicine" then ran off. The TV station van has been spray painted with graffiti and the truckers that need to get in and out of the port to make an honest living are giving up and going home. They are causing way more harm than good, destroying public and private property and wasting millions of tax dollars.

 

[mgriff]

If the protesters had representatives like you out there with them, people including me, might listen. You should see the sh!t going on out here in California. These idiots here are dumber than door knobs. They are out there because they're a bunch of hippie wanna-be's and think it's cool to be there. They don't understand the economy, I bet they don't even have checking accounts. A TV reporter just asked three protesters why they were there trying to shut down the Port of Oakland, one said he was "there to be heard" but didn't elaborate, one said she was there because "royalist are killing the planet" and the last one yelled "marijuana is medicine" then ran off. The TV station van has been spray painted with graffiti and the truckers that need to get in and out of the port to make an honest living are giving up and going home. They are causing way more harm than good, destroying public and private property and wasting millions of tax dollars.

And what do you think will garner more attention from the media, and eloquent speech highlighting the ills and injustices of modern day America, of which that media element is a part of, or a dummy pothead and his loser friend? Which one news stations choose to show directly affects how people perceive the movement. The more people think these movements are a bunch of losers and worthless ne'er-do-wells the longer the status quo remains. Like I'm saying, the longer the population fights amongst themselves about this the longer the attention is away from real issues. That's why you don't hear eloquent speakers at these events. Like I said in my previous post, it's all incendiary.

Sure there is rabble that comes out when protests happen, but categorizing everyone who is a part of or believes in a movement as a loser or degenerate is disingenuous. I feel for everyone affected by this economy, from the protesters to the truckers you were talking about, but the bottom line is that if we just pulled our heads out of our asses, took off the ****ing blinders, and worked together, we could save this country. The problem is that people can't break away from reality TV to boring politics, and when there are concerted efforts, the movements are defined as left or right, never a non-affiliated movement. Then the "other side" is able to argue against the horrid agendas of the people doing the protesting. And what does that do? Put us right back at square one fighting over the illusion of choice between the left/right.

It's amazing that people are up in arms about the waste of tax dollars from the Occupy movement but don't bat an eyelash about QE450, the massive commitment of American money and lives to pursue a unipolar foreign policy, and the taxpayer money that routinely makes its way to corporations who have paid elected officials for their votes. It sucks that some in the movement are disrupting good, honest hardworking Americans, but the original message still stands, and no matter how much bad press Occupy receives, that won't change. Our country is bankrupt, literally and morally.

 

[BeauBenken]

I thought this thread had been closed due to extremely heated debate...guess not.

 

[irishog77]

Was this plucked from the "Dead Horse" forum??

 

[BobD]

I thought this thread had been closed due to extremely heated debate...guess not.

No, I closed it for awhile. I reopened it this morning trying to find some support for shooting the protesters.....no luck yet.

As long as the debate stays civil...............

 

[irishpat183]

The Message isn't whats turning people off...it's that the people carrying it out have really no idea, or experience, in the arguments they're attempting to make between bongo drum sessions and bong hits.

I get it. You want to stop corporate greed....but you should be protesting GOVERNMENT, not the private sector...which is only doing what the government allows them to get away with.

And FYI- The rich DO pay taxes. Plenty of them. In fact, the MAJORITY of them. So stop that ignorant argument.

We need more tax payers, not higher taxes. Why does the burden of this country's problems always fall back on "the rich"?? They're doing their part. It's the "zero liablity" voter that does nothing. Where is their accountablity? When are they gonna pay their "fair share"??!?!?!?!?!

I won't hold my breath.

 

[irishpat183]

No, I closed it for awhile. I reopened it this morning trying to find some support for shooting the protesters.....no luck yet.

As long as the debate stays civil...............

The minute one puts their dirty mitts on an officer, I'm all for opening fire.

If they act like animals (deficating in public, ransaking private property, living in the streets) then treat them as such.

 

[palinurus]

I've tried to sympathize but I'm sick of these idiot losers. I don't care if we have to tear gas them, spray them with fire hoses or shoot them with rubber bullets, this needs to end now. They have no message, no organization, no leadership, no unity and are a waste of time and tax payer funds.

I read somewhere: "Their motto is: 'We don't know what we want, and we want it NOW!!' " lol

 

[BobD]

^ LOL

 

[enrico514]

Not sure how well organized most movements are at their start. If they got a small percentage of the "clueless" to question the state their economy and country finds itself in... they accomplished a lot!

 

[JadeBrecks]

No, I closed it for awhile. I reopened it this morning trying to find some support for shooting the protesters.....no luck yet.

You can sign me up.

Might not have to shoot them though. They may freeze to death.

 

[BeauBenken]

While I agree that organization HAS to take place (considering I was arguing with the local Occupiers about that at the start), they are still making it well known that they aren't happy with what's currently going on which is the main goal, is it not? What I'm saying is - they're being recognized.

 

[RDU Irish]

Who is John Gault?