Kelly's 1st class(2011) vs Weis' 1st class(2006)

[Sherm Sticky]

Will Yeatman..... would have 2 rings right now were it not for his off the field issues. Sigh.

Did you play with him?

 

[PLACforever]

Weis has too much of the NFL in him (insert fat joke), he wasn't concerned about player development, just running the offense.
Great OC lousy College HC. I actually think he'd be an alright NFL HC since he wouldn't have to spend much time on development.

 

[IrishLax]

Did you play with him?

Guy was absolutely incredible, led the team in points as a frosh before **** hit the fan. Only reason we didn't win the championship in both '09 (where we went undefeated in the regular season) and '10 (where we came within an OT goal of a championship) is that we had a bunch of really good attackmen... but did not have a super stud that caused matchup problems. At Yeatman's size and speed he was practically unguardable.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Guy was absolutely incredible, led the team in points as a frosh before **** hit the fan. Only reason we didn't win the championship in both '09 (where we went undefeated in the regular season) and '10 (where we came within an OT goal of a championship) is that we had a bunch of really good attackmen... but did not have a super stud that caused matchup problems. At Yeatman's size and speed he was practically unguardable.

The DUI is in excusable, but his second altercation was BS!

 

[TDHeysus]

This is exactly why Weis is still the key to ND's success next year. Weis had that huge recruiting class, but he had almost no base to build on. Guys like Young had to start right away. Kelly, on the other hand, will have a great base to build around. He'll get to spend a lot more time watering the plants, because Weis and co put the soil in place.

this is overlooked by alot of ppl. Look what BK walked into at ND compared to the post-apocalyptic scene that Weis inherited. I have found most ppl dont care, they just want to bash Weis.

Couldn't disagree more. I really don't know what 'base' you are saying Kelly will be building 'around'?

Te'o, Harrison Smith, CWood, LWood, Crist, Rees, Hendrix, Fleming, Riddick, TJ Jones, Gary Gray, Calabrese, Nix, Stockton, Rudolph, Eifert, Floyd, etc, etc.

....I will always come down on the side that CW benefited the program...and that we owe him a nod for where we are, and what we will become...

I think you, IrishinSyria and I are swimming upstream together with this, but thats OK. We're strong swimmers.

 

[BGIF]

Just added a little more in bold and red to your great synopsis.

Sergio Brown 3 stars - DB ST as Fr. ST&DB So. Became Starter as Jr. Actually didn't start till Sr year. NFL

Actually ... according to und.com he was a Starter in 6 games as a Jr. Played 149 minutes. I don't recall precisely but think ND started a bunch of games with a Nickel Back that may account for his junior starts. He still gets credited with the starts.

2008 (JUNIOR): Played in all 13 games for the Irish and started six times (San Diego State, Michigan, Purdue, Washington, Boston College and Hawai'i) ...

He started 9 games as a Sr.

University of Notre Dame Official Athletics Site - Football

 

[Sherm Sticky]

Actually ... according to und.com he was a Starter in 6 games as a Jr. Played 149 minutes. I don't recall precisely but think ND started a bunch of games with a Nickel Back that may account for his junior starts. He still gets credited with the starts.




He started 9 games as a Sr.

University of Notre Dame Official Athletics Site - Football

Actually you are right he did start as the nickle back that year. I'm never questioning you again!

 

[IrishBlood81]

You're right about one thing, we couldn't disagree more. Instead of going player by player and talking about our defense's depth and talent levels, allow me to compare two players: Ian Williams and Louis Nix.

Well YAY! I'm shocked I was right about anything lol .

Ian was a well-regarded 3 star player. Louis was a highly touted 4 star recruit. Ian played in all 12 games his freshman year, because we needed him to. Nix, on the other hand, was able to spend his freshman year red-shirting. You can believe whatever you like, but the bottom line is that Weis revived ND. Kelly has more raw material to work with and it's of much higher quality; he should end up with a masterpiece.

Ian was beast no doubt. But, the truth is, we both can believe whatever we like, and the bottom line is not that he revived ND. Thats one of the most ridiculous statements I have yet to read about Weis. If he revived ND why isn't he still here? If he revived ND why did we lose to Navy after not losing to them for the past 30 (?) years and than him saying..basically I don't care about tradition? And losing to SYRACUSE?! If he revived ND football why isn't it revived?!

Are you familiar with Nick Tausch? You know, the guy who kicked one field goal this year? He was our starting kicker for a while and did a very respectable job. We didn't get a walk-on because we needed to, we got a walk on because we had a freak athlete on campus and Weis saw that he was too good to keep off the team just because we already had 2 scholarship kickers.

I'm not. I've heard of him but not in depth. I remember that for the past years our kicking game has been average at best.

Now your confusing me. I thought we were talking about recruiting (i.e. the raw material). This looks a lot like what happens after the players get here (i.e. the sculpting). Unless you're saying Weis recruited players with bad attitudes???

Yes, I changed a bit to cover the development of the players. No I wasn't saying that he recruited players with bad attitudes, he just allowed them do have whatever attitude they wanted.

Yes... maybe... the program came down with an attitude problem. And you'll notice I haven't posted "Weis shouldn't have been fired". We very well may have needed new blood and a new attitude to shake things up a bit. BUT it's one thing to have to shake things up- it's another thing to be needing things to shake. That's the difference between Ty and Weis, which is really what my point was about.

Well, yeah, if the program did, theres obviously only one person responsible.
You didn't say that, but you said Weis revived ND. And 'we very well may need' implies that Weis maybe shouldn't have been fired.

Its not like I'm a TY fan or anything either.

Also, to confirm my opinion, check out what was posted by BGIF above about what happened to these recruits

...I don't know...I mean yea Kelly said that, but he also said the raw material on defense is critical...If I take Kelly at his word, and I look at what the defense turned into, I'd say CW had a couple good gets on D...something to build on for sure...

Yeah, sure but If the raw material was there why would this whole recruiting class be based around Defense?

On offense...sheesh, not even goin there...He left PLENTY of "Base".

yup the material was there, the development wasn't.

...CW and staff did not leave the cupboard as bare as what they received. As well, he showed you could recruit at ND...

Well I mean, its not like really saying all that much saying 'they did better than the last guy'. He won super bowls he better have done better than TY who really was a nobody in the eyes of recruits.

let me ask you this...does Kelly take the job if CW hadn't dispelled the recruiting misconception/perception that were "crazy davie" and "don't give a damn willingham's" legacy?

I have no idea to be honest. I do think Kelly would have done fine if he didn't have CW as his predecessor and directly followed Willingham.
I agree that CW could pull in recruits but thats really only thanks to his NFL career and where they the 'right' recruits? and what happened to them?

I will always come down on the side that CW benefited the program...and that we owe him a nod for where we are, and what we will become...

I agree we 'owe' him for where we are, as its probably the lowest this program has EVER been, but I pray to God he has nothing to do with what we will become.

 

[OlympiaIrishFan]

CW was just fine. Not great, but just fine. But, ND isn't about fine. It is about being the best. And Charlie wasn't. He was a very good recruiter, but didn't do all the rest of the little things and some big things that are necessary. But, people saying he didn't leave anything or didn't bring anything is just a false statement. And borderline stupid.

Charlie brought in arguably one of the best QB's in the history of ND--Jimmy
Charlie brought in arguably 2 of the best WR in the history of ND--Golden and Floyd
Charlie brought in arguably one of the best LB's in the history of ND--Manti

That alone is enough to be OK. He did coach us to one bowl win, and I think 2 BCS appearances. Or 1 off the top of my head.

And other leaders and very good players he left behind that were mentioned. Harrison, Wood, Welch,Eifert, Ian, Carlo, Theo, Kyle R, and the crew. Saying he was bad or horrible is just a stupid comment. We have building blocks left behind--Starting QB, STud LB, Safety, TE, WR, etc. He left enough behind. Now we have a guy who does take care of the little things--and that is the difference.

 

[phgreek]

CW was just fine. Not great, but just fine. But, ND isn't about fine. It is about being the best. And Charlie wasn't. He was a very good recruiter, but didn't do all the rest of the little things and some big things that are necessary. But, people saying he didn't leave anything or didn't bring anything is just a false statement. And borderline stupid.

Charlie brought in arguably one of the best QB's in the history of ND--Jimmy
Charlie brought in arguably 2 of the best WR in the history of ND--Golden and Floyd
Charlie brought in arguably one of the best LB's in the history of ND--Manti

That alone is enough to be OK. He did coach us to one bowl win, and I think 2 BCS appearances. Or 1 off the top of my head.

And other leaders and very good players he left behind that were mentioned. Harrison, Wood, Welch,Eifert, Ian, Carlo, Theo, Kyle R, and the crew. Saying he was bad or horrible is just a stupid comment. We have building blocks left behind--Starting QB, STud LB, Safety, TE, WR, etc. He left enough behind. Now we have a guy who does take care of the little things--and that is the difference.

Amen!

 

[phgreek]

Yeah, sure but If the raw material was there why would this whole recruiting class be based around Defense?

Need...it was time...we needed to fill those positions with young guys... this 2010 defense developed into something special by year's end. Can't fake D right?...did Brian Kelly recruits do that? How many Brian Kelly recruits make a contribution on D next year? Most of the guys returning to start will be whose recruits? I'm going out on a limb here, and I'm going to say he was left with some good material...was there enough depth...no.

yup the material was there, the development wasn't.

least we agree there

Well I mean, its not like really saying all that much saying 'they did better than the last guy'. He won super bowls he better have done better than TY who really was a nobody in the eyes of recruits. ?

true...but you seriously gloss over the importance of CW. Lets go back in time here...Boob Davie just talked Urbie into taking the Florida job (which I'm fine with now...wanted to beat Boob at the time) because it was too hard to recruit at ND...the ESPN talking heads moved their rhetoric to a fevered pitch about how hard it was because coaching greats like Ty and Boob failed to do it well. So after the Urbie debacle, and the trumped up "can't recruit" buzz, just who in the F&^% did you think was taking the job? Brian Kelly wasn't even a foot note at that point. CW came looking for this job, and I say thank God. In one shot, he helped save face for the program, and showed it was still a big time job commanding a big time coach, and he and his rings went out and obliterated the notion you can't recruit at ND.

I have no idea to be honest. I do think Kelly would have done fine if he didn't have CW as his predecessor and directly followed Willingham.

...who in the hell was Brian Kelly back then? He couldn't have pulled this program out...I like the guy, but we are the beneficiaries of getting the guy when he was done baking...he will be a great, but he'd have been eaten alive by this program had he come 5 years sooner...just MHO

I agree that CW could pull in recruits but thats really only thanks to his NFL career and where they the 'right' recruits? and what happened to them?

...seems to me like they were, based on how they turned it around. Showed mental toughness, and when they got the new system(s), the athletecism was there. I don't think you'll find alot of folks who'd argue about the failure of the CW crew to develop D and either side of the ball on the line. But I think the original argument was CW didn't leave a base...that simply cannot be true based on what I see.

I agree we 'owe' him for where we are, as its probably the lowest this program has EVER been, but I pray to God he has nothing to do with what we will become

Spoken like a guy who would bitch about the amenities in the cage that brings him up the mine shaft...J/K I normally agree with your views, but I think you completely miss the impact of CW, and you hate him for losses to the likes of Navy, so clearly he couldn't have done anything beneficial...I see him as a guy who turned out not to be a head coach, but paved the way for BK to be successfull...perspective is what we do not share...

 

[eNDzone]

Rivals ranking #8

James Aldridge 5 stars -RB Arrived with ACL. Played but never regained top form.
Sergio Brown 3 stars - DB ST as Fr. ST&DB So. Became Starter as Jr. NFL
Ryan Burkhart 2 stars - K Became K.O. Specialist
Matt Carufel 4 stars - RG 3 career starts at ND. Got beaten out and quit. Transfer to Minnesota. Started 21 games there.
Zach Frazer 4 stars - QB Loss the QB derby to Clausen, Sharpley, and Detetrius Jones. DNP at ND. Transferto Connecticut. 2 year+ Starter. Took CT to '10 BCS game.
Jashaad Gaines 3 stars - S Played in 5 games as Fr., 4 as So. Dropped out over "personal issues in '08 and did not return to ND. Transfer. May have ended up at Texas Southern.
Barry Gallup 3 stars - WR, RB, KR, ST "Where do you need me coach?" RKG, ND Man. Spent 5 years at ND, played in 30+ games and got 2 degrees. Currently earning 6 figure income.
Leonard Gordon 3 stars - S Primarily ST player, saw little action at DB. DNP as Fr. No 5th Yr.
Richard Jackson 4 stars - WR Primarily ST as Fr. 2 minutes PT at WR. Injuries. DNP as So. Buried on Depth Chart. Transfer to UCF with NCAA Waiver.
Demetrius Jones 4 stars - QB With FR Clausen recovring from elbow surgery. Jones started ahead of Sharpley in GT debacle. Weis Spread experiment. DNP again "missing the bus" and transfer. Ended up at Cincinnati and became LB.

Raeshon McNeil 4 stars - CB - Played all 4 yrs. Last 2 as Starter.
Paddy Mullen 3 stars - DL DNPN as FR. Career backup DT as upperclassmen
Eric Olsen 4 stars - RG Quality PT as Fr. Beat out Carufel midway through So season and started every game from then on. 3 Yr Starter Robby Parris 3 stars - WR 4 yr player. So Starter. lost PT when Tate & Floyd arrived.
Munir Prince 3 stars - RB/CB Backup RB as Fr. Moved to CB as So. Transfer MU.
Konrad Reuland 4 stars TE Highly ranked recruit. Played as Fr. Lost out to Yeatman and Ragone. Then Rudolph and Fauria verballed to ND. Transfer to Juco then Stanford.
Morrice Richardson 3 stars - 4 year player primarliy as pass rush specialist
John Ryan 3 stars - DE/OLB 4 year player Started about half his games.
Luke Schmidt 3 stars - FB DNP as Fr. Backup as So. Multiple concussion Career Ending Injury. Toryan Smith 3 stars - LB
Chris Stewart 4 stars - OG DNP as Fr. Backup RT as So. 3 yr Starter. Started all but 3 games (knee injury) as Jr. plus Sr & 5th Yr. Law School Student.
Kallen Wade 3 stars OLB/DE DNP as Fr. Career backup.
Bartley Webb 3 stars - OT Career Ending Injury Shoulder
Daniel Wenger 4 stars - OC Part-time Starter. Multiple concussions. Currently applying for NCAA Medical 6th year.
George West 3 stars - Played in 13 games as FR. Played in 12 as So Starting 7. Injured as Jr and saw little PT. Then came Tate & Floyd.
Will Yeatman 3 stars - TE also lettered in LAX. Transferafter 2 run-ins with ResLife.
Sam Young 5 stars - OT 4 Yr Starter. Didn't live up to forecast as next "Aaron Taylor" Combination of injuries and questionable coaching.

Total Commits-27
5*-2
4*-10
3*15
Average Ranking 3.46

So if I count correctly they had 8 out of 27 recruits transfer and two others had career ending injuries. These were Weis's recruits. How do you bring in that many guys who don't fit your school or system in one year? I could see this if they were not your recruits but what was Weis's excuse.

 

[choo choo]

well, im mho i think its quite unfair to try and compare the two's first class...bk did a helluva job no doubt, but cw (not trying to defend his regime) kinda had to hit the floor running...he was still with the pats while most others were on the road...and he did a fine job for the time he had to work with...i dont wanna debate his ideas vs bk's...both worked their asses off and i am honored to have had them both after having davies and willingham...cw did a good job of putting us back in the national spotlight recruiting...and looking back bk found this program a hellluva lot better off than cw did...but i belive he will do alot more with it than cw could

 

[alohagoirish]

Charlie was not with the pats while recruiting for the 2006 class . That was the 2005 class that no one would grade against him at all--the 2006 class he had the full cycle to recruit so if there was some weakness to the evaluation of players and their potential contributions it was not because he was distracted by any transition.

 

[phgreek]

So if I count correctly they had 8 out of 27 recruits transfer and two others had career ending injuries. These were Weis's recruits. How do you bring in that many guys who don't fit your school or system in one year? I could see this if they were not your recruits but what was Weis's excuse.

...reporting to the media that a guy decided it wasn't a fit, and saying a guy wasn't a fit are two very distinct messages...

I always had the impression...and maybe I'm wrong...that CW always said nice things about those guys who left, and always made it sound like it was their decision, and they concluded they didn't fit. I don't recall him blaming any kid, or saying they didn't fit...when did he say that? not saying he didn't...I just never heard him say such a thing...

I will say, in some cases (Frasier's case specifically), these kids are in a derby with kids their same year as well as older kids, so if you are 4th, and there are a couple ahead of you who are your year, its likley you won't ever see the field...I think its classy to be honest, and let some folks move on...

 

[JadeBrecks]

I always had the impression...and maybe I'm wrong...that CW always said nice things about those guys who left, and always made it sound like it was their decision, and they concluded they didn't fit. I don't recall him blaming any kid, or saying they didn't fit...when did he say that? not saying he didn't...I just never heard him say such a thing...

But what is the point of recruiting someone if they are going to leave you. You can recruit the best of the best but if they dont want to work, dont want to think in class, or whatever reason they leave they are useless to you. You have find the kids that are going to fit your program and want to fit in your program. I believe kelly is doing that now.

 

[phgreek]

But what is the point of recruiting someone if they are going to leave you. You can recruit the best of the best but if they dont want to work, dont want to think in class, or whatever reason they leave they are useless to you. You have find the kids that are going to fit your program and want to fit in your program. I believe kelly is doing that now.

...no one expects a specific player to leave, but everyone knows some will...you recruit in hopes that all will stay, but its really not in the cards.

Yea, CW lost more than you'd expect...on that I think we'd all agree....but please don't come crashing down on Kelly when some guys from this class are lost...they can't all make the two deep, and some won't accept the role they've been given...some won't adapt to ND on the academic side...some will just want to be close to home...if you can predict which ones before they get to South Bend, Kelly would make room for you on the staff...

I have no doubt he will retain folks better than the previous regime...but he will lose some...get used to the idea...you cannot avoid it.

 

[eNDzone]

Agreed there will be atrition, but a third of the class?

 

[jakerbluegold]

Weis did a great job of recruiting, but there was absolutely nothing for him to work with.

The obvious difference between Weis' and Kelly's classes is the focus on specific postions.

Chuck had to recruit every position.

If anyone can tell me that Charlie had anything to work with, other than some great, undiscovered skill postition players, I'd have to call that person crazy.

Kelly walked into a very favorable postion, Chuckles did not.

That's the true difference in this situation.

It's been reiterated ad naseum, but Ty's offensive and defensive line hauls were horrible.

Can't build ****e without guys in the trenches.

 

[johnnykillz]

Can someone tell me why we have 22 listed on the first page?

I can't find anything on losing someone...

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishinSyria
This is exactly why Weis is still the key to ND's success next year. Weis had that huge recruiting class, but he had almost no base to build on. Guys like Young had to start right away. Kelly, on the other hand, will have a great base to build around. He'll get to spend a lot more time watering the plants, because Weis and co put the soil in place.

this is overlooked by alot of ppl. Look what BK walked into at ND compared to the post-apocalyptic scene that Weis inherited. I have found most ppl dont care, they just want to bash Weis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishBlood81
Couldn't disagree more. I really don't know what 'base' you are saying Kelly will be building 'around'?

Te'o, Harrison Smith, CWood, LWood, Crist, Rees, Hendrix, Fleming, Riddick, TJ Jones, Gary Gray, Calabrese, Nix, Stockton, Rudolph, Eifert, Floyd, etc, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phgreek
....I will always come down on the side that CW benefited the program...and that we owe him a nod for where we are, and what we will become...

I think you, IrishinSyria and I are swimming upstream together with this, but thats OK. We're strong swimmers.

Wasn't Nix recruited by Alford after Weiss was fired and the first big land of the Kelly era?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Can someone tell me why we have 22 listed on the first page?

I can't find anything on losing someone...

Hey Johnny,

It sucks that you are the most lucid one on the page, with all you've been going through! CONGRATS!

I am really jealous that you can see such detail when you gotta be weary. Damn! It must be a conspiracy! BT

 

[johnnykillz]

Hey Johnny,

It sucks that you are the most lucid one on the page, with all you've been going through! CONGRATS!

I am really jealous that you can see such detail when you gotta be weary. Damn! It must be a conspiracy! BT

It's called paranoia. It may be a conspiracy of sorts though. I got a cell tower real close to my house. Damn radio frequency radiation is jacking with my skull.

 

[jakerbluegold]

Better move bro, can't have the little one have aliens messing with her mind!

Congratulations man! My wife and I are working on our first, and it's good to see people succeeding in the whole procreation thing!

 

[IrishinSyria]

Wasn't Nix recruited by Alford after Weiss was fired and the first big land of the Kelly era?

My point wasn't that Nix was Weis' recruit, rather, that we had the depth this year to not play him (even with the injury to Ian Williams). IrishLax had an epic thread about why this was important. Yes, he was the first big pick up of Kelly's career, he committed early because he wanted to give the program a boost.

 

[choo choo]

Charlie was not with the pats while recruiting for the 2006 class . That was the 2005 class that no one would grade against him at all--the 2006 class he had the full cycle to recruit so if there was some weakness to the evaluation of players and their potential contributions it was not because he was distracted by any transition.

yes, your absolutely right...i wasnt paying attention...thanks

 

[TDHeysus]

Wasn't Nix recruited by Alford after Weiss was fired and the first big land of the Kelly era?

My facts are hazy on this, lol.....

I cant remember what Weis recruiter told Nix (this coach knowing the end was near), but he told Nix even if I am not there coaching next year, Notre Dame is the best place for you. Louis Nix said he was soo impressed by what this coach said to him (given this coaches impending doom), that he committed to ND. I believe Nix was all set to go to Miami before that.

I thought that is how Nix committed, if so, I consider Nix a Weis guy.