Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[Cackalacky2.0]

Yeah but root cause is such a disengenious way of looking at these scenarios. I can do root cause analysis and make that determination right now.

"Did Kelly decide to have practice outside that day?"
"Yes"
"He made a decision that lead to the death."

The question isn't root cause. It's moral and legal responsibility. Brian Kelly is in a scenario where he has 100+ people doing their various jobs around him, many of which are dangerous by the nature of the sport he's running, and he has about 15+ responsibilities to focus on. Declan Sullivan should've been trained to know not to be in a lift in those winds. The keys to the lift shouldnt have even been accessible to him in those conditions. It was a systemic safety failure by the University (the kind that unfortunately happen to large institutions all the time), and I think it's crap to put it at BK's feet no matter how much of an asshole he is.

Talks about disingenuous ....summary lol.... No one is saying because BK held practice that day therefore DS dies.... lol.

Root cause analysis is literally the way almost all workplace and OSHA type accidents are analyzed. Its not disingenuous in the least.....lol. I know. I have been at the center of a workplace accident and had to deal with it. The reason you do it is to determine to best available information that can be attained on how the failure occurred and how to not allow it to occur again. BK and staff are not completely at fault and they are not totally blameless as well.

The accident I was involved in found the same thing. I had a part in the failure just not as much as the company did. I could have died. I didnt but for no other reason than pure luck. That doesnt mean I didnt do things to put myself in the situation or also contribute to the end result no matter how much i wanted to blame others for it.

As I said earlier, it wasnt just Kelly and staff's decision to allow it.... it should have never gotten there in the first place, or DS should have had the necessary training to know not to go up.... or as in most everything safety related lthere are layers of protection and redundancy built in to the system... but in this case and for numerous reasons it happened. The layers of safety didnt exist which is what ROOT CAUSE analyses identify so it doesnt happen again.

 

[greyhammer90]

Talks about disingenuous ....summary lol.... No one is saying because BK held practice that day therefore DS dies.... lol.

Root cause analysis is literally the way almost all workplace and OSHA type accidents are analyzed. Its not disingenuous in the least.....lol. I know. I have been at the center of a workplace accident and had to deal with it. The reason you do it is to determine to best available information that can be attained on how the failure occurred and how to not allow it to occur again. BK and staff are not completely at fault and they are not totally blameless as well.

The accident I was involved in found the same thing. I had a part in the failure just not as much as the company did. I could have died. I didnt but for no other reason than pure luck. That doesnt mean I didnt do things to put myself in the situation or also contribute to the end result no matter how much i wanted to blame others for it.

As I said earlier, it wasnt just Kelly and staff's decision to allow it.... it should have never gotten there in the first place, or DS should have had the necessary training to know not to go up.... or as in most everything safety related lthere are layers of protection and redundancy built in to the system... but in this case and for numerous reasons it happened. The layers of safety didnt exist which is what ROOT CAUSE analyses identify so it doesnt happen again.

You misunderstand my point. Root cause is a fine way of determining causal fault, and is used to help decision makers determine how to prevent things happening again. But it's a bad way to determine moral fault, which is what the internet wants to do because they don't like BK for football reasons. The point of my question/answer example was ghoulish exaggeration because that's what it comes across as when people say really vicious shit like "BK killed a kid." BK is casually at fault like a hundred other decision makers at ND were.

 

[IrishLax]

The DS incident was an institutional failure from top to bottom. Whoever was in charge of Occupational safety and health at the school would have known you never operate a scissor lift in inclement weather let alone having it extended to the max height in windy weather.

The fact that Kelly and the staff required or at best “allowed” him to perform the work in those conditions was absolutely on Kelly. That did not have to happen but it never should have even gotten to Kelly in the first place as any competent safety officer would never have allowed that machine to be operated in that capacity in those conditions. Generally tragedies like this occurs for several reasons and none of them alone would typically result in death, but DS’s desire to work overrode his own personal safety even though he was live tweeting how crazy it was on the lift, NDs lax safety ops, and Kelly and staff allowing him up in the machine in those conditions with a complete distrgard for his safety all contributed to DSs death.

I can absolutely guarantee that if ND did a root cause analysis Kelly and staff would have been determined to have had a significant hand in the decisions leading up to the death.

Just want add on here that Cack -- like me -- is an engineer who is on job sites all the time and has probably gone through OSHA training. A lot of others on this board might be engineers/contractors who do similar stuff. You work long enough in construction, you see accidents and death, and usually the fault isn't just on one person for making a mistake.

Bottom line is that Kelly is not the party "most" responsible but it is an organizational failure from top to bottom that he is a part of. Whoever was Declan Sullivan's direct supervisor or in charge or utilizing those lifts is most responsible for not having protocols in place for when they should / should not be used. Declan Sullivan also should have been trained on their operation before ever setting foot in one and been empowered to say "this is unsafe, I am not doing it." And then people up the food chain including Kelly, Swarbrick, etc. all have some blame too.

OSHA fines Notre Dame $77,500 over student's death

As expected, the Indiana Occupational Safety and Health Administration released its findings from a four-month investigation into the death of videographer Declan Sullivan Tuesday morning.

www.nbcsports.com

OSHA found that Sullivan was not appropriately trained. They found that was knowingly put in an unsafe situation. They found that the scissor lifts weren't being inspected / maintained. Very little of that is on Brian Kelly, but all of it is on Notre Dame at large. It was a workplace safety accident that was easily avoidable if existing protocols were followed.

 

[Dale]

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Brice on II podcast yesterday leaned heavy on the fact that Denbrook leaving BK for Marcus Freeman was BK's downfall at LSU

I think that's ultimately the case.

Unrelated to Kelly, I think Denbrock and Freeman were pivotal to Fickell's success at UC and he's fallen flat at Wisconsin without them.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Just want add on here that Cack -- like me -- is an engineer who is on job sites all the time and has probably gone through OSHA training. A lot of others on this board might be engineers/contractors who do similar stuff. You work long enough in construction, you see accidents and death, and usually the fault isn't just on one person for making a mistake.

Bottom line is that Kelly is not the party "most" responsible but it is an organizational failure from top to bottom that he is a part of. Whoever was Declan Sullivan's direct supervisor or in charge or utilizing those lifts is most responsible for not having protocols in place for when they should / should not be used. Declan Sullivan also should have been trained on their operation before ever setting foot in one and been empowered to say "this is unsafe, I am not doing it." And then people up the food chain including Kelly, Swarbrick, etc. all have some blame too.

OSHA fines Notre Dame $77,500 over student's death

As expected, the Indiana Occupational Safety and Health Administration released its findings from a four-month investigation into the death of videographer Declan Sullivan Tuesday morning.

www.nbcsports.com

OSHA found that Sullivan was not appropriately trained. They found that was knowingly put in an unsafe situation. They found that the scissor lifts weren't being inspected / maintained. Very little of that is on Brian Kelly, but all of it is on Notre Dame at large. It was a workplace safety accident that was easily avoidable if existing protocols were followed.

With the way redditors et al. talk about it, BK pulled a gun and forced a weeping student, begging for his life, to ascend the lift. Reality is more "mundane", which is why people want to ascribe blame and ignore reality. It makes them feel morally superior and even safer because obviously a tragic accident can only happen when there's a Disney villain on one end.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I won’t clog up the thread anymore on this and if someone wants to talk further I’ll talk all day about this stuff. I have been on both sides of it and made phone calls to loved ones I don’t ever want to have to make again. And Lax is right. I have had more training than I care to tell and I have seen some nasty shit happen that was easily preventable.

 

[IrishLax]

With the way redditors et al. talk about it, BK pulled a gun and forced a weeping student, begging for his life, to ascend the lift. Reality is more "mundane", which is why people want to ascribe blame and ignore reality. It makes them feel morally superior and even safer because obviously a tragic accident can only happen when there's a Disney villain on one end.

Exactly. Saying "BKKAK" is more edgy than "wow it's extremely tragic that this college student died because Notre Dame didn't train him properly or have a competent safety program."

 

[zelezo vlk]

Exactly. Saying "BKKAK" is more edgy than "wow it's extremely tragic that this college student died because Notre Dame didn't train him properly or have a competent safety program."

I think the CFB subreddit's mods have banned anyone from bringing up Declan in the BK firing threads, which I find quite humane.

Also we should recall that Declan's tragic death was 15 years ago yesterday. For all those going to the cemetery soon for All Soul's Day, let's not forget to pray for his soul

 

[Huntr]

I think the CFB subreddit's mods have banned anyone from bringing up Declan in the BK firing threads, which I find quite humane.

Yeah, and they also put out a since-deleted tweet with a BKKaK joke at the same time.

So don't hold up those fuckin assholes as morally admirable in any way.

 

[Irish du Nord]

I think that's ultimately the case.

Unrelated to Kelly, I think Denbrock and Freeman were pivotal to Fickell's success at UC and he's fallen flat at Wisconsin without them.

I think Denbrock especially. UC still had a pretty good defense in 2021 and 2022 under Tressel/Fickell, and Guidugli/Coombs had a decent offense in 2022. The move to Wisconsin really killed them. Longo was incompetent from the start and they had a worse crop of defensive players at UW than he did at UC.

 

[bobbyok1]

Great little scenic black sand beach, known as Waianapanapa State Park. Vivid blue water surrounded by black volcanic rock and a black sand beach (from the volcanic rock). It's tiny, but worth the trip. Along the "Road to Hana" on Maui.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Great little scenic black sand beach, known as Waianapanapa State Park. Vivid blue water surrounded by black volcanic rock and a black sand beach (from the volcanic rock). It's tiny, but worth the trip. Along the "Road to Hana" on Maui.

View attachment 3060891View attachment 3060892

Tried to take my kids to see this in June. Turns out that, if you're not a local, you have to make a "reservation" to visit months in advance or they turn you away at the entrance. And that restriction isn't advertised anywhere online. We fortunately found a public (and much less scenic) black sand beach nearby so the drive out there wasn't a total scratch, but a precious half-day of vacation on Maui was almost wasted because of bureaucratic bullshit.

 

[bobbyok1]

Tried to take my kids to see this in June. Turns out that, if you're not a local, you have to make a "reservation" to visit months in advance or they turn you away at the entrance. And that restriction isn't advertised anywhere online. We fortunately found a public (and much less scenic) black sand beach nearby so the drive out there wasn't a total scratch, but a precious half-day of vacation on Maui was almost wasted because of bureaucratic bullshit.

Yeah, I don't recall how that worked out for us. We did make a reservation, but I thought it was while we were there. We went in June of 24'. Either way, it's pretty ridiculous. If Hawaii is going to welcome the revenue of the tourist industry, they need to welcome the tourists that bring that revenue.

Glad you all found a good spot to stop and enjoy, regardless.

The various "locals only" and barriers to tourists, while granting access to locals, felt very "segregist" and "elitist" to me. Didn't care for that at all.

 

[greyhammer90]

Tried to take my kids to see this in June. Turns out that, if you're not a local, you have to make a "reservation" to visit months in advance or they turn you away at the entrance. And that restriction isn't advertised anywhere online. We fortunately found a public (and much less scenic) black sand beach nearby so the drive out there wasn't a total scratch, but a precious half-day of vacation on Maui was almost wasted because of bureaucratic bullshit.

If it makes you feel better you didn't miss much. There's a neat cave off to the side but the beach itself is just a beach but more rocky and more crowded.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

In the end, I am glad Kelly didn't win a title at LSU. Everything he said about ND would have been proven correct if he had. I'm not cheering on the fact he got fired, but the fact he didn't win there and was the first guy not to after the last three did signifies he got it wrong about ND. It's great PR when his LSU record gets held up against Freeman's, too.

Kelly won more games than Lou and Rockne at ND, but didn't win a Championship. He couldn't make it four coaches in a row at LSU to win a Championship either. That's ultimately his legacy. Dude was one hell of a Division II coach that ended up cashing in, winning a lot of games, but never won a Championship at the Division I level.

 

[SportsingHard]

In the end, I am glad Kelly didn't win a title at LSU. Everything he said about ND would have been proven correct if he had. I'm not cheering on the fact he got fired, but the fact he didn't win there and was the first guy not to after the last three did signifies he got it wrong about ND. It's great PR when his LSU record gets held up against Freeman's, too.

Kelly won more games than Lou and Rockne at ND, but didn't win a Championship. He couldn't make it four coaches in a row at LSU to win a Championship either. That's ultimately his legacy. Dude was one hell of a Division II coach that ended up cashing in, winning a lot of games, but never won a Championship at the Division I level.

Nothing BK ever could've done at LSU would've proven anything about ND, and nothing changed at ND because he failed.

 

[Kingbish01]

In the end, I am glad Kelly didn't win a title at LSU. Everything he said about ND would have been proven correct if he had. I'm not cheering on the fact he got fired, but the fact he didn't win there and was the first guy not to after the last three did signifies he got it wrong about ND. It's great PR when his LSU record gets held up against Freeman's, too.

Kelly won more games than Lou and Rockne at ND, but didn't win a Championship. He couldn't make it four coaches in a row at LSU to win a Championship either. That's ultimately his legacy. Dude was one hell of a Division II coach that ended up cashing in, winning a lot of games, but never won a Championship at the Division I level.

This is my take too, I don't hate BK but I didn't want him to have success at LSU. Now that he's gone, I'd pull for him anywhere else. It just had that year one LeBron in Miami vibe...glad he lost to Dirk....and glad BK didn't win a ship too. Now I'm officially indifferent, he can do whatever at this point.

 

[thekid33]

All due respect to other's opinions, but I hate him.

I am not going to argue that you have to hate him- you do you.

But for me - I choose hate.

The timing and the way he left was classless. And, it took him leaving to fully and finally open my eyes to what a bad guy he seems to be.

I hate him for that too - that I spent time defending him to non-ND fans during his time here. In fact, the things they said about him were almost all correct.

Jerk
Arrogant
Can't win the big games

I do acknowledge and appreciate that he provided a tenure that was mostly stable and respectable coming after the dumpster fire that was Davie, Willingham and Weiss. But, that doesn't mean that I don't hate him. I hope he never coaches again so I don't ever have to see or hear from him again. If he does coach again I will wish him and that school nothing but the worst.

 

[Kingbish01]

All due respect to other's opinions, but I hate him.

I am not going to argue that you have to do - you do you.

The timing and the way he left was classless. And, it took him leaving to fully and finally open my eyes to what a bad guy he seems to be.

I hate him for that too - that I spent time defending him to non-ND fans during his time here. In fact, the things they said about him were almost all correct.

Jerk
Arrogant
Can't win the big games

I do acknowledge and appreciate that he provided a tenure that was mostly stable and respectable coming after the dumpster fire that was Davie, Willingham and Weiss. But, that doesn't mean that I don't hate him. I hope he never coaches again so I don't ever have to see or hear from him again. If he does coach again I will wish him and that school nothing but the worst.

He did Cincy way dirtier than ND.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Nothing BK ever could've done at LSU would've proven anything about ND, and nothing changed at ND because he failed.

Go on believing that, and we're never going to know, but I will never forget what the man himself said when he left. You're crazy if you think that Kelly winning a title at LSU isn't a neutron bomb for every ND hater and pundit with a keyboard and Wi-Fi.

If he wins a National Championship at LSU after leaving Notre Dame, there is no mistaking that what he said was always in context.

"I want to be in an environment where I have the resources to win a national championship".

That's what he said. The three previous guys at LSU had won one there. Kelly can say it was taken out of context or misinterpreted, but we all know the deal here because we've been fans of this program long before Brian Kelly packed up his bags in Cincinnati and came to South Bend.
I know what he said, I know damn well what he meant and exactly how it was meant to be interpreted. The best part is that whether he or anyone else likes it or not, he's a bigger part of Notre Dame's history than LSU's.

 

[thekid33]

He did Cincy way dirtier than ND.

We could have still made the playoff! It doesn't have to be a competition though - they were both dirty.

 

[Kingbish01]

I agree, him winning a title at LSU after shitting in the punch bowl for 12 years at ND would have been really bad for ND any way you slice or dice it.

 

[Kingbish01]

We could have still made the playoff! It doesn't have to be a competition though - they were both dirty.

He knew what would happen to him in the playoffs...LOL

But I agree, it's def not a competition but he had Cincy in the first ever undefeated season ever and just bolted.

 

[SportsingHard]

Go on believing that, and we're never going to know, but I will never forget what the man himself said when he left. You're crazy if you think that Kelly winning a title at LSU isn't a neutron bomb for every ND hater and pundit with a keyboard and Wi-Fi.

If he wins a National Championship at LSU after leaving Notre Dame, there is no mistaking that what he said was always in context.

"I want to be in an environment where I have the resources to win a national championship".

That's what he said. The three previous guys at LSU had won one there. Kelly can say it was taken out of context or misinterpreted, but we all know the deal here because we've been fans of this program long before Brian Kelly packed up his bags in Cincinnati and came to South Bend.
I know what he said, I know damn well what he meant and exactly how it was meant to be interpreted. The best part is that whether he or anyone else likes it or not, he's a bigger part of Notre Dame's history than LSU's.

It's not a matter of belief. It's not a matter of the CFB landscape. Nothing Kelly does proves anything about ND like nothing you do proves anything about Disney World.

 

[Kingbish01]

It's not a matter of belief. It's not a matter of the CFB landscape. Nothing Kelly does proves anything about ND like nothing you do proves anything about Disney World.

Wait....Did Jiggafini19Deux play Mickey at Disney World for over a decade?? I had no idea, from here on out he should be called Mickey

 

[TheProspector]

In the end, I am glad Kelly didn't win a title at LSU. Everything he said about ND would have been proven correct if he had. I'm not cheering on the fact he got fired, but the fact he didn't win there and was the first guy not to after the last three did signifies he got it wrong about ND. It's great PR when his LSU record gets held up against Freeman's, too.

Kelly won more games than Lou and Rockne at ND, but didn't win a Championship. He couldn't make it four coaches in a row at LSU to win a Championship either. That's ultimately his legacy. Dude was one hell of a Division II coach that ended up cashing in, winning a lot of games, but never won a Championship at the Division I level.

With respect to being a hell of a Division II coach, his failure at LSU has me reexamining if he was even that great of a coach to begin with.

At GVSU, he didn't build that program. GVSU went 21-3 in the two years prior to BK taking over. They went 74-7 under Chuck Martin after BK left. And during BK's 13 year tenure, he didn't win at least 10 games until his 11th year there. That was kind of shocking to me when I read that this week.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I agree, him winning a title at LSU after shitting in the punch bowl for 12 years at ND would have been really bad for ND any way you slice or dice it.

100%.

Penn State has a longer drought than ND at the moment. Otherwise we've seen just about everyone snag one since the 1988 season. That national narrative is more prevalent now than ever before since Marcus at least managed to break the January bowl game drought last year. That fixation is going to follow the program and fan base until they finally get it done again.

The idea that had Kelly gone on to win a Championship at LSU after winning more games than Rockne at ND without a championship wouldn't have been on multiple agendas against Notre Dame is naive. At best, if I'm being polite.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

It's not a matter of belief. It's not a matter of the CFB landscape. Nothing Kelly does proves anything about ND like nothing you do proves anything about Disney World.

Not sure what the fuck this even means and don't really care.

Brian Kelly isn't doing much of anything right now, which works out as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Kingbish01]

With respect to being a hell of a Division II coach, his failure at LSU has me reexamining if he was even that great of a coach to begin with.

At GVSU, he didn't build that program. GVSU went 21-3 in the two years prior to BK taking over. They went 74-7 under Chuck Martin after BK left. And during BK's 13 year tenure, he didn't win at least 10 games until his 11th year there. That was kind of shocking to me when I read that this week.

Wow, you're right. He took over a decent program and actually did pretty "meh" for 10 years (losing all momentum those two years prior to his arrival) before having a nice 3 year run between years 11-13