Swarbrick Interview on Changing College Sports

IrishLax

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Couldn't find a good thread for this, maybe could've put it in NIL but it covers a wide range of topics. Basically, Swarbrick says college sports will be dead as we know it in the 2030s and has some eye opening stuff to say on playoff expansion, NIL, etc.
 

SouthSideChiDomer

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The professionalization of many teams makes sense. Honestly, it seems like the logical conclusion. Are Alabama fans fans of their team because they are graduates or support the academic mission of the school, or are they fans because its the closest thing they can get to professional sports near where they live? The truth is that there are large parts of the country that do not have professional sports, so they latched on to college sports. Its no coincidence that most of the blue blood programs aren't in major markets and the teams that are in major markets struggle with fan support. If the Alabama Crimson Tide football team was no longer made up of students from the University of Alabama, but were simply professionals that played their games on the campus of the University of Alabama, I don't think any of their fans would care as long as they were still able to beat the team from the next state over. That's what it has always been about with these big state schools. Probably the only thing holding them back has been the fact that its been cheaper to run the whole thing with the sham of amateurism allowing them not to pay their players. Now that they are paying closer to a real market rate for the players, it might actually end up costing them money to keep the game up because there is no salary cap and the money going to players could be coming out of the money that would normally go to donations to the university. By spinning off football into a second tier professional league, they can control wages while also reducing expenses by cutting a ton of women's sports that are no longer needed to meet Title IX requirements.

The problem for schools like us is that we couldn't keep up with this even if we wanted to. We don't have that regional identity that would drive sustained fan interest. Maybe us fans alive right now would remain fans, but what would cause the next generation of fans to become ND fans? If there is no academic component, no religious component, no cultural identity, and no regional identity, what would our professional team even be? Maybe some people with Irish ancestry would still be brought in by the mascot, but is that enough for a future fanbase? And we are probably one of the lucky ones among national academic institutions. How would Northwestern or Duke or Stanford survive? How would the service academies? What about the directional state schools?

As far as I can see, there are only a few ways out of this. First is some sort of congressional action. Jack said he doesn't see it happening until the mid-2030s, so that does give us some time. Maybe China ends up kicking our butt in the 2028 LA Olympics and Congress is embarrassed enough to seek reform of the Olympic pipeline, and thus also collegiate sports. Who knows how that would turn out, but it would be enough to push us off the current path.

Second, I can see some amount of push back from university presidents. Maybe its the fear of the loss of power or maybe its a genuine affection for the collegiate model, but enough push back from leaders of enough of the big powers could force a change in direction. Just like a few massive schools moving conferences caused a shakeup that almost killed a conference, I could see a few massive schools putting their foot down stopping the professionalization process.

Third (and somehow maybe the most likely?) is that the people backing all these various spring football leagues realize there is already a built in fan base in these smaller markets that they could activate instead of trying to shoehorn in another professional team in a major market. I don't know what the league would look like in terms of fall vs. spring, playing on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, having players who have no relation to the university or doing like the AAF tried and connecting teams to the college. I don't know if they would license the university's logos, names, and colors, or simply make it an association (a la the Chicago Bears combining elements from the Cubs, University of Chicago, and University of Illinois). But the reason I could see this being attempted (besides the fact that there have been so many failed secondary football leagues), is that this might make the universities more money than they currently get without the risk of professionalization killing their golden goose, which would be protected against the failure of the professional team. If they can reign in NIL so that is goes back to the intent of the rule instead of the current situation, it could increase fan support without drawing away too money donation money. They can then still keep their expenses in order without a decrease in revenue while also benefiting from an increase in revenue from the professional team playing in their stadium or using their symbols, and all of this could be done without them having to take a wrecking ball to the current system that benefits them so much.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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My hot take is that reigning in NIL and limiting it to the intended purpose is a non-starter that will never happen. Before NIL there was a bright line, easy to enforce rule against all soft income and enforcing it was still difficult. And now the financial disparities among the conferences continue to grow.

You're not going to stop Texas A&M, etc. from pay for play. IMO, the solution is to subdivide FBS and let schools who want to walk that path have a place to do it. You'll have a much easier time with compliance (for the rest) if the schools have the option and make a choice.
 

stlnd01

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Personally I don't think a Power 64 (or 48 or whatever the final number is) breaking off and forming their own football operation would be the end of the world. That's essentially how the sport operates today, in practice. Create that structure officially for big-time football and leave the Olympic sports and lesser football programs more or less as-is.
I like to think Notre Dame has the staying power to compete in that environment. Though I guess we'll see where things like NIL and academic requirements actually go.
 

stpeteirish

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Some thinly veiled shots at "leadership" their which makes we wonder if Jack has his eyes on something beyond retiring as the former ND AD. Not sure if he has any answers, however. They aren't in this interview.

I don't see how the contracts will inhibit the SEC from moving on from the status quo well before the "mid 2030's" timeframe he gives. An "age group" pro league for 18-22 year olds will solve some problems while creating others. Women's sports will have to pay their own way. The "college football as an extracurricular activity" academic schools will have to shit or get off the pot. I think Jack's right; we'll go into the non pro group.

So there's one thing the ND haters will still have. We'll win vs an easy schedule.
 

Te'o4Heisman

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Some thinly veiled shots at "leadership" their which makes we wonder if Jack has his eyes on something beyond retiring as the former ND AD. Not sure if he has any answers, however. They aren't in this interview.

I don't see how the contracts will inhibit the SEC from moving on from the status quo well before the "mid 2030's" timeframe he gives. An "age group" pro league for 18-22 year olds will solve some problems while creating others. Women's sports will have to pay their own way. The "college football as an extracurricular activity" academic schools will have to shit or get off the pot. I think Jack's right; we'll go into the non pro group.

So there's one thing the ND haters will still have. We'll win vs an easy schedule.
Which parts did you interpret that way? I didnt read anything that jumped out at me as such, but its quite possible I just didnt pick up on it.
 

notredomer23

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The major leagues should go to an academy model before there are other professional leagues. Why would they let players go to an Alabama Crimson Tide LLC for a few years where then the players have to enter a draft, while these professional teams could have an under 22 year old team of their own before graduating to the full senior team, taking out the guess work of a draft and getting them involved in your system from a young age? College sports will still exist but the level of athlete will obviously diminish.
 

stpeteirish

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Which parts did you interpret that way? I didnt read anything that jumped out at me as such, but its quite possible I just didnt pick up on it.
The comments about expanding the playoffs “single most oddest” and the stuff about NIL going off beyond any control for starters.

The whole idea of a complete schism smacks of lack of leadership. The AD’s and university presidents could just come together with someone competent at the helm.
Or maybe just me projecting what I see as a gigantic ego
 

Te'o4Heisman

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The comments about expanding the playoffs “single most oddest” and the stuff about NIL going off beyond any control for starters.

The whole idea of a complete schism smacks of lack of leadership. The AD’s and university presidents could just come together with someone competent at the helm.
Or maybe just me projecting what I see as a gigantic ego
That makes sense. I interpreted your comment as meaning towards the ND leadership..you didnt say anything to allude to it, so not sure why I read it that way.
 

stpeteirish

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The major leagues should go to an academy model before there are other professional leagues. Why would they let players go to an Alabama Crimson Tide LLC for a few years where then the players have to enter a draft, while these professional teams could have an under 22 year old team of their own before graduating to the full senior team, taking out the guess work of a draft and getting them involved in your system from a young age? College sports will still exist but the level of athlete will obviously diminish.
answer is easy: save money. College provides the NFL with a free minor league. They still can if the "licensing" model outlined by Jack actually works. I'm sure it'll work in the SEC, those people don't give two shits if their players go to school or not. And maybe the SEC is all the new model would need but a more national league would be a better TV draw. Some of these big state schools with lofty academic ratings may not be comfortable trading the status quo for a pro team comprised of players who don't go to college.
 

stlnd01

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The major leagues should go to an academy model before there are other professional leagues. Why would they let players go to an Alabama Crimson Tide LLC for a few years where then the players have to enter a draft, while these professional teams could have an under 22 year old team of their own before graduating to the full senior team, taking out the guess work of a draft and getting them involved in your system from a young age? College sports will still exist but the level of athlete will obviously diminish.
Training football players is very expensive. Why would the NFL build out its own minor/developmental league when college football already does all the work for free?

As for revenue/fan interest, minor league football would be about as popular as minor league baseball, which is to say not very, really. Whereas college football has huge built-in fan bases - thanks to students and alumni and huge regional brands - who pay the freight for world-class facilities and coaching that develops all the players the NFL will ever need.
 

IrishLax

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People really overestimate how much interest there would be in a true age-restricted minor league. No one outside of the state of Alabama would watch that.

For most, college football is powered by a combination of school pride, state pride, and nostalgia. You kill two out of the three by having random contracted professionals who aren’t students playing for a school. I don’t think there is a market for that and I don’t think we ever end up there.

What I do think will happen is legalizing/regulating some more official revenue sharing and cutting out the Vanderbilts, etc.
 

SouthSideChiDomer

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People really overestimate how much interest there would be in a true age-restricted minor league. No one outside of the state of Alabama would watch that.

For most, college football is powered by a combination of school pride, state pride, and nostalgia. You kill two out of the three by having random contracted professionals who aren’t students playing for a school. I don’t think there is a market for that and I don’t think we ever end up there.

What I do think will happen is legalizing/regulating some more official revenue sharing and cutting out the Vanderbilts, etc.
Why would it have to be age restricted? And if the SEC teams (minus Vanderbilt) go the way of full professionalization such that there is no college team at the university, do you think the fan base wouldn't transfer over? Are people in Knoxville or Athens just going to stop watching football on Saturdays in the fall?
 

BrownerandFry

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Couldn't find a good thread for this, maybe could've put it in NIL but it covers a wide range of topics. Basically, Swarbrick says college sports will be dead as we know it in the 2030s and has some eye opening stuff to say on playoff expansion, NIL, etc.
Vintage Swarbrick. Gratuitous and irrelevant.

Which line of his JOB DESCRIPTION as AD did he fulfill with the interview?

Enchantment, for Jack, begins and ends with his own voice.
 

SouthSideChiDomer

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Vintage Swarbrick. Gratuitous and irrelevant.

Which line of his JOB DESCRIPTION as AD did he fulfill with the interview?

Enchantment, for Jack, begins and ends with his own voice.
Or he is trying to shape public opinion and head off the further fracturing of the NCAA which could leave ND in the position of having to choose between competing at the highest level and retaining the collegiate model.
 

notredomer23

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Training football players is very expensive. Why would the NFL build out its own minor/developmental league when college football already does all the work for free?

As for revenue/fan interest, minor league football would be about as popular as minor league baseball, which is to say not very, really. Whereas college football has huge built-in fan bases - thanks to students and alumni and huge regional brands - who pay the freight for world-class facilities and coaching that develops all the players the NFL will ever need.

A good academy would pay for itself ten-fold.

I also don’t think there’s supposed to be much fan-interest besides the die-hards in an academy model. This way also keeps college athletics as student athletes. This already is taking place here with college soccer and MLS. It’s not that far fetched. Just gives players an alternate route and there will still be plenty of it at the college level. Mark Cuban has proposed similar model in the past for the NBA.
 

Old Man Mike

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... any ultimate settled model which does not include the coming-to-be total cash flow to any organization and any individual(s) who can compete for "jobs" is naive. The modern world is run by something very close to radical capitalism, and the snake's head here is the NIL. It's in the tent. Cash for Entertainment ... cash from the addicts of football. NCAA dies or morphs into a league of 20-year olds wearing faux school colors and picking up significant checks. A&M, Texas, BAMA, Georgia, LSU, Oklahoma, OSU, Miami, FSU, etc etc Big Cash, Big Media presence. Big Media payouts. Big total "talent" payouts. It's already barely beneath the surface.

Always "Follow The Money" ----- quite sad about this inevitable sh!t. Fortunately I'm 81 and won't have to get depressed about it too many years.

P.S. if one can't imagine this because it's not ideal in any sense, just remember that the flow of money often overpowers good sense and better ideas.
 

Ndaccountant

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People really overestimate how much interest there would be in a true age-restricted minor league. No one outside of the state of Alabama would watch that.

For most, college football is powered by a combination of school pride, state pride, and nostalgia. You kill two out of the three by having random contracted professionals who aren’t students playing for a school. I don’t think there is a market for that and I don’t think we ever end up there.

What I do think will happen is legalizing/regulating some more official revenue sharing and cutting out the Vanderbilts, etc.
I tend to agree. What is interesting to me is where does ND realistically fall in this type of scenario. Jack made it clear once again that ND still wants the school's product to bear some semblance to what they have today. That doesn't mean that ND can't be included, but it means that ND would fight an uphill battle, just like today. This is what makes the Freeman era so interesting to me. He obviously is hyper focused on recruiting. If he can show that ND can recruit competitively in this environment, without sacrificing ND's mission, it should give the BoT comfort than ND can still thrive at all levels in a revenue sharing model.

Also, just so everyone is aware, the mid-30's comment and the focus on Olympic sports is not surprising. The writers laid out the TV contract deals, but what they didn't mention is that ND's Olympic sports contract with the ACC runs thru 2036. ND seemingly puts much value on independence. One of the only things that would crush independence is if ACC or anyone else refused to allow ND entry without full football association. I think Jack knows that at some point, ND's hand will be forced. From this interview, the countdown looks to have already begun.
 

BrownerandFry

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Or he is trying to shape public opinion and head off the further fracturing of the NCAA which could leave ND in the position of having to choose between competing at the highest level and retaining the collegiate model.
Your position is sensible and tenable but two things. What he says will have a chilling effect on the joy of playing the sport for the current athletes. They deserve simplicity and freedom from concern of things that may occur two decades from now. Second and this is visceral not syllogistic, there is no level on which I trust Swarbrick.
 

SouthSideChiDomer

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Your position is sensible and tenable but two things. What he says will have a chilling effect on the joy of playing the sport for the current athletes. They deserve simplicity and freedom from concern of things that may occur two decades from now. Second and this is visceral not syllogistic, there is no level on which I trust Swarbrick.
The second point is obvious and I disagree with the first. Having been in their shoes, most of these athletes world views barely extend past campus or what their next issued gear will be. They barely have time to worry about 14 days in the future, let alone 14 years.
 

Irish#1

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Training football players is very expensive. Why would the NFL build out its own minor/developmental league when college football already does all the work for free?

As for revenue/fan interest, minor league football would be about as popular as minor league baseball, which is to say not very, really. Whereas college football has huge built-in fan bases - thanks to students and alumni and huge regional brands - who pay the freight for world-class facilities and coaching that develops all the players the NFL will ever need.
People really overestimate how much interest there would be in a true age-restricted minor league. No one outside of the state of Alabama would watch that.

For most, college football is powered by a combination of school pride, state pride, and nostalgia. You kill two out of the three by having random contracted professionals who aren’t students playing for a school. I don’t think there is a market for that and I don’t think we ever end up there.

What I do think will happen is legalizing/regulating some more official revenue sharing and cutting out the Vanderbilts, etc.
You guys get it. The reason college athletics is popular is due to the relationship to the school.

A semi-pro league would fail just like the USFL, WFL, AAF CFL (not Canadian), XFL and UFL. Each one thought they had a better working model to succeed. I could go into the reasons, but I don't want to derail the thread.
 

Irish#1

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Your position is sensible and tenable but two things. What he says will have a chilling effect on the joy of playing the sport for the current athletes. They deserve simplicity and freedom from concern of things that may occur two decades from now. Second and this is visceral not syllogistic, there is no level on which I trust Swarbrick.
Simplicity? These kids are diving head first in an effort to grab NIL money which is new to CFB. They don't even think about making things simplistic.
 

IrishLax

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I'm curious whether people would rather play in a division of sports that includes USC, UCLA, Duke, Vandy, etc. or one that includes Alabama, Florida, Texas, etc. Would it diminish your fandom if the other division had "better" players on salary?
 

ACamp1900

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I'm curious whether people would rather play in a division of sports that includes USC, UCLA, Duke, Vandy, etc. or one that includes Alabama, Florida, Texas, etc. Would it diminish your fandom if the other division had "better" players on salary?
... I,.... already view it this way,....
 

Irishbounty28

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I would be less worried about the fans perspective changing as a whole, and more about access based on any change networks may have. Will networks heavily favor the pro model, pushing the academics to the side.
 

pumpdog20

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I'm curious whether people would rather play in a division of sports that includes USC, UCLA, Duke, Vandy, etc. or one that includes Alabama, Florida, Texas, etc. Would it diminish your fandom if the other division had "better" players on salary?
The latter for sure. I'm guessing if they went the semi pro model, there will still be some link to the university even if in name only. And that alone will be enough to still consider it a collegiate national championship (or whatever they call it). I want ND playing in the highest level associated with collegiate sports.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The latter for sure. I'm guessing if they went the semi pro model, there will still be some link to the university even if in name only. And that alone will be enough to still consider it a collegiate national championship (or whatever they call it). I want ND playing in the highest level associated with collegiate sports.
Citation missing. You really think a semi-pro team that simply licenses a brand from the local university and doesn't include any students on the roster would still count as a "collegiate national championship"? My interest would immediately disappear.

Minor leagues can sometimes provide a pleasant gameday experience, but there's nothing beyond that because no one is invested in the team or the players.
 

ACamp1900

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Citation missing. You really think a semi-pro team that simply licenses a brand from the local university and doesn't include any students on the roster would still count as a "collegiate national championship"? My interest would immediately disappear.
So,... our late 80s rivalry games with Miami's semi pro team must not of done much for you....
 

Whiskeyjack

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So,... our late 80s rivalry games with Miami's semi pro team must not of done much for you....
They did, because our students were playing in them. That we could hire a bunch of mercs with no connection to ND, slap a shamrock on their helmets, and some of you would root for them just as hard as long as "we're competing at the highest level" makes me sad.

Who TF is "we" in that scenario? Because it wouldn't be ND anymore.
 

stlnd01

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I'm curious whether people would rather play in a division of sports that includes USC, UCLA, Duke, Vandy, etc. or one that includes Alabama, Florida, Texas, etc. Would it diminish your fandom if the other division had "better" players on salary?
I would rather Notre Dame be in the “best” division but college football isn’t really about watching the “best” players. They play on Sunday. We all know that.

At its root college football about community, or tribalism, “us vs. them,” all that good stuff. For it to work, the players have to feel like “us,” like part of our tribe. That’s more important than the quality of play. But the more professionalized it becomes, the harder that is to maintain.
 
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