Swarbrick Interview on Changing College Sports

[Old Man Mike]

All of the details are unpredictable because this is still a "charging into the (mostly) unknown." But I (hate it but) believe that the next several years will be a burgeoning break-out of ostensible cash-bought teams while their universities shamelessly create (or maintain) the illusion that their teams are University teams. As most of us curmudgeons already know, this is how the Southern powers already operate, but they'll have to work a little harder on the disingenuous LIARS Smiley Faces when everybody on their teams have their hands out openly all over the NIL media. The fans will either flat out love it, or will love it while turning a blind eye, because deep at heart most of them (at those schools) don't really give a sh!t about the "school" vs the football team anyway.

I'm going to repeat a story here that I've written twice. Twenty+ years or so ago, this "dirty" or "illegal" athlete enticing was beginning to create some murmuring within the academic organizations that joined together American universities, and some real talk was beginning about "low standards" relating to football players. Schools like Miami, Florida State, and the SEC powers were in the spotlight. Someone went to the president of (I think my memory is accurate here, but it could have been any SEC power) Georgia, and expressed these concerns. Would Georgia raise its standards to get football "student/athletes" closer in education achievement to the the regular student body. The president said, astoundingly: No. That would be like unilateral
disarmament.

The PRESIDENTS of those universities don't even want their football teams hampered by academics.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I would rather Notre Dame be in the “best” division but college football isn’t really about watching the “best” players. They play on Sunday. We all know that.

At its root college football about community, or tribalism, “us vs. them,” all that good stuff. For it to work, the players have to feel like “us,” like part of our tribe. That’s more important than the quality of play. But the more professionalized it becomes, the harder that is to maintain.

College football long predated the NFL, has always been superior to the NFL in a number of important ways, and the League remains parasitic on the college game today. Those arguing that college football "has to" deform itself now because of the League are getting the hierarchy backwards. F*ck the NFL. I'll stop watching football before I'll endorse professionalizing the college game.

 

[stpeteirish]

You guys get it. The reason college athletics is popular is due to the relationship to the school.

A semi-pro league would fail just like the USFL, WFL, AAF CFL (not Canadian), XFL and UFL. Each one thought they had a better working model to succeed. I could go into the reasons, but I don't want to derail the thread.

Disagree. The "semi-pro" league would likely not fail. For starters there's nothing "semi" about it. The players would be extremely well paid and far superior to the lower paid "college" guys. The SEC and Texas schools would no doubt be the leaders and most of those schools would be happy to allow their "pro" teams to use their stadiums uniforms, nicknames, etc for a piece of the action. Their wouldn't be another Alabama Crimson Tide with unpaid college students fighting the pros for the fan base, they'd be all in with the best players just like they are now (wouldn't be able to play Wofford any more though, LOL). The southern football fan doesn't give two shits if these guys go to school or not.

And no doubt in my mind the TV networks would be all over the "pro" college league. I remember thinking it was a big mistake when CBS decided to throw big bucks at televising the SEC nationally. Boy was that wrong. The fans want to see the best players. The NFL would love it too. They give the other guys the 18-22 yr olds and take it from there, free farm clubs.

 

[ACamp1900]

They did, because our students were playing in them. That we could hire a bunch of mercs with no connection to ND, slap a shamrock on their helmets, and some of you would root for them just as hard as long as "we're competing at the highest level" makes me sad.

Who TF is "we" in that scenario? Because it wouldn't be ND anymore.

You know what I mean tho,… it’s not like multiple programs haven’t already gone this route… and their fans could not care less as long as it works. ND will just do what it keeps doing and try to punch above their weight like they have for 40 years now. That’s my point.

 

[pumpdog20]

Citation missing. You really think a semi-pro team that simply licenses a brand from the local university and doesn't include any students on the roster would still count as a "collegiate national championship"? My interest would immediately disappear.

Minor leagues can sometimes provide a pleasant gameday experience, but there's nothing beyond that because no one is invested in the team or the players.

I don't buy that there won't be students on the team. My assumption is that scholarships and a degree are still going to be the biggest selling points for these teams. Maybe not for the elite of the recruits, but the majority of them.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You know what I mean tho,… it’s not like multiple programs haven’t already gone this route… and their fans could not care less as long as it works. ND will just do what it keeps doing and try to punch above their weight like they have for 40 years now. That’s my point.

Right, but for the last 40 years, we could at least all claim to be playing by the same rules, and there was a chance that Congress or the NCAA might vindicate the traditional model and steer the other blue bloods away from semi-professionalism. Now that that fig leaf has been dropped, we're in uncharted territory, and it's not clear that NDFB as we know it will survive.

I don't buy that there won't be students on the team. My assumption is that scholarships and a degree are still going to be the biggest selling points for these teams. Maybe not for the elite of the recruits, but the majority of them.

The model is still CFB and not a radical difference from what we de facto have now. You could still consider a collegiate national championship.

Could even work for ND (hey, we moved to artificial turf and a jumbotron, right?)

Interesting as an intellectual exercise, but given Jenkins' and Swarbrick's extensive commentary on this issue, I have a hard time seeing non-student semi-professionals integrating seamlessly into the team. The University has been such an integral part of NDFB, and the team has sacrificed too much over the years to maintain true integration on that front.

There's obviously a lot of potential for creative thinking on how student athletes and the University can benefit one another now that no one is policing the bounds of soft income anymore, but ultimately ND is still going to insist that: (1) the team serve the University's mission first, not vice versa; and (2) we only recruit kids that are going to represent ND well on a national stage. Much of the talk surrounding this issue seems to be aimed at legally squaring a circle that ND has no interest in.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Right, but for the last 40 years, we could at least all claim to be playing by the same rules, and there was a chance that Congress or the NCAA might vindicate the traditional model and steer the other blue bloods away from semi-professionalism. Now that that fig leaf has been dropped, we're in uncharted territory, and it's not clear that NDFB as we know it will survive.


Interesting as an intellectual exercise, but given Jenkins' and Swarbrick's extensive commentary on this issue, I have a hard time seeing non-student semi-professionals integrating seamlessly into the team. The University has been such an integral part of NDFB, and the team has sacrificed too much over the years to maintain true integration on that front.

There's obviously a lot of potential for creative thinking on how student athletes and the University can benefit one another now that no one is policing the bounds of soft income anymore, but ultimately ND is still going to insist that: (1) the team serve the University's mission first, not vice versa; and (2) we only recruit kids that are going to represent ND well on a national stage. Much of the talk surrounding this issue seems to be aimed at legally squaring a circle that ND has no interest in.

This is where it gets interesting from an economic model standpoint. Jack made the point about the likely scenario where the Big 10 and SEC run away with funding. It's hard to argue against that vision.

If that scenario plays out, I still can't see an endgame that doesn't revolve around revenue sharing with the athletes and the athletes become employees. Would ND want to be included in that? I still think they reasonably could, if the players contractually lived up to the expectations you outlined. I don't like that, but it's really the most likely path forward.

The difficulty I have is this....last couple reports I have seen is that ND football had a pre-pandemic profit of close to $70M. That obviously funds the Olympic teams and then some. And while ND football is not the mission of the University, I think we can say with confidence that football is the differentiator compared to schools like Georgetown. Football is more often than not the glue that binds everything together. Students will still be smart, service will still be a focus and ND would continue to harbor elite faculty. It wouldn't be immediate, but in 15-25 years, the ND experience would be severely harmed. I think of it this way, when I travel internationally during the fall to any major city I know there will be a ND game watch. Beijing, Tokyo, Barcelona, Athens, you name it, there will be a gathering. Stories will be told, friendships bloom and the experience is unlike any other. But it starts with a desire to watch a football game. Without that game, much of that doesn't happen. Without football, the Olympic sports are toast. ND simply wouldn't be the same.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The difficulty I have is this....last couple reports I have seen is that ND football had a pre-pandemic profit of close to $70M. That obviously funds the Olympic teams and then some. And while ND football is not the mission of the University, I think we can say with confidence that football is the differentiator compared to schools like Georgetown. Football is more often than not the glue that binds everything together. Students will still be smart, service will still be a focus and ND would continue to harbor elite faculty. It wouldn't be immediate, but in 15-25 years, the ND experience would be severely harmed. I think of it this way, when I travel internationally during the fall to any major city I know there will be a ND game watch. Beijing, Tokyo, Barcelona, Athens, you name it, there will be a gathering. Stories will be told, friendships bloom and the experience is unlike any other. But it starts with a desire to watch a football game. Without that game, much of that doesn't happen. Without football, the Olympic sports are toast. ND simply wouldn't be the same.

I agree with all of this, and am not happy with the way things are trending. Our commitment to sport is partly why ND is an order of magnitude more "conservative" than any other school in the top 20 of the US News & World Report ranking (making it pretty centrist). The average ND student is a lot more red-blooded and well-rounded than those you'll find at our peer institutions. If the prevailing trends force us to choose our values over competing for national titles in football, athletic revenue will dry up, the Olympic sports will suffer, and the culture of campus and our alumni will change tremendously. I pray it doesn't come to that, but things are trending from bad to worse, and we have very little control here.

 

[FWIrish4]

NCAA: Only 54% of FBS players who entered portal enrolled at new school

In a move to provide more transparency with regard to the transfer portal, the NCAA released information on the number of entrants in 2020 and 2021.

www.espn.com

Not sure where to put this, but there has to be a come to Jesus moment in college athletics. All of these people that pump the player empowerment schtick probably have no idea how harmful it is to not only college athletics, but more importantly the athletes.

Taking the guardrails off and letting emotional 18-21 year olds make life decisions with no repercussions is hurting more than it’s helping. It’ll be interesting to see the % of players who don’t find homes in the future. Unbelievable that 31% of college basketball players were in the portal last year. How is that at beneficial for anyone? I’m more curious as to how many of these transfers end up graduating.

I’m a former college baseball guy so I know how it goes with 35 roster spots and 11.7 scholarships. Teammates that werent the happiest with PT but didn’t want to sit to transfer just toughed it out and graduated, which is the main goal anyway.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

I love that Jack admitted that people have always been buying players.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I love that Jack admitted that people have always been buying players.

Just like prostitution, it's been around forever. It's really fun when those two things cross paths too. Hugh Freeze butt dialing was memorable. But who can forget the most famous of them all....

 

[NorthDakota]

Just like prostitution, it's been around forever. It's really fun when those two things cross paths too. Hugh Freeze butt dialing was memorable. But who can forget the most famous of them all....

CJK5H. #never forget

 

[Irish#1]

Citation missing. You really think a semi-pro team that simply licenses a brand from the local university and doesn't include any students on the roster would still count as a "collegiate national championship"? My interest would immediately disappear.

Minor leagues can sometimes provide a pleasant gameday experience, but there's nothing beyond that because no one is invested in the team or the players.

You guys get it. The reason college athletics is popular is due to the relationship to the school.

I don't think this can be stressed enough. Fans can relate because you have an abundance of them that took the same classes as the players or they saw them walking on campus, etc.

 

[Irish#1]

Right, but for the last 40 years, we could at least all claim to be playing by the same rules, and there was a chance that Congress or the NCAA might vindicate the traditional model and steer the other blue bloods away from semi-professionalism. Now that that fig leaf has been dropped, we're in uncharted territory, and it's not clear that NDFB as we know it will survive.


Interesting as an intellectual exercise, but given Jenkins' and Swarbrick's extensive commentary on this issue, I have a hard time seeing non-student semi-professionals integrating seamlessly into the team. The University has been such an integral part of NDFB, and the team has sacrificed too much over the years to maintain true integration on that front.

There's obviously a lot of potential for creative thinking on how student athletes and the University can benefit one another now that no one is policing the bounds of soft income anymore, but ultimately ND is still going to insist that: (1) the team serve the University's mission first, not vice versa; and (2) we only recruit kids that are going to represent ND well on a national stage. Much of the talk surrounding this issue seems to be aimed at legally squaring a circle that ND has no interest in.

Agree. Even though the SEC doesn't stress the academics like some schools, the kids in the SEC still attend class and are part of the campus culture. This is what binds the FB team to the university and makes it relatable to the other students.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Vintage Swarbrick. Gratuitous and irrelevant.

Which line of his JOB DESCRIPTION as AD did he fulfill with the interview?

Enchantment, for Jack, begins and ends with his own voice.

Yeah, he’s no Mike Wadsworth