Russia Invades Ukraine

[GoldenToTheGrave]

True, but many of us threw stones at him for that too. Was completely insane and morally bankrupt to pardon those child murderers.

Absolutely. We should absolutely be outraged by what's going on in Ukraine, and the horror should also inspire some level of introspection.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

We probably shouldn't start throwing stones too hard before we have to look at ourselves and realize our president pardoned mercenaries who gunned down 17 civilians in Iraq under similar circumstances.

You know who everyone hates? The guy who shows up in the middle of a murderous war that's garnered near world-wide unification against the antagonist and says, "Well, we really shouldn't judge too hard because we've all done bad things too".

America has plenty of transgressions in it's history, but Russia it ain't. Countless missteps, lives lost and blunders with foolish policies/laws enacted but we still ain't near Russia, so fuck off a bit, will ya?

 

[IrishBoognish]

You know who everyone hates? The guy who shows up in the middle of a murderous war that's garnered near world-wide unification against the antagonist and says, "Well, we really shouldn't judge too hard because we've all done bad things too".

America has plenty of transgressions in it's history, but Russia it ain't. Countless missteps, lives lost and blunders with foolish policies/laws enacted but we still ain't near Russia, so fuck off a bit, will ya?

QFT

 

[BrownerandFry]

QFT

Darn it, I agree in part or whole with the last four posts in this thread.

Nobody's right if everybody's wrong, and nobody's wrong completely if everybody's right completely..

Each of the four(five, I guess) of Boog, VDP Lax, Golden and Grey have value to their posts.

THAT is the America I grew up in, when we embraced gray and everything was not all black and white.

that is the pardigm, the open discussion, free range, that needs to return.....................................................

if not...............

 

[Irish#1]

We probably shouldn't start throwing stones too hard before we have to look at ourselves and realize our president pardoned mercenaries who gunned down 17 civilians in Iraq under similar circumstances.

Not good at all, but you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Irish#1]

Way of life getting tougher on Russia.

McDonald’s, Starbucks and Coca-Cola leave Russia​

McDonald's suspends business in Russia. Here's why it's a big deal

McDonald’s and Starbucks are shutting their restaurants and cafes in Russia, and Coca-Cola is suspending its operations there in response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. PepsiCo is also pulling some products from the country.
“McDonald’s has decided to temporarily close all our restaurants in Russia and pause all operations in the market,” CEO Chris Kempczinski said in a statement Tuesday. There were 847 locations of McDonald’s in Russia at the close of last year, according to an investor document.


McDonald's said Tuesday that it is closing its Russian locations.
Globally, most McDonald’s (MCD) locations are operated by franchise operators. But that’s not the case in Russia, where 84% of locations are operated by the company, according to the document. Russia’s restaurants, along with another 108 in Ukraine, all operated by McDonald’s (MCD), accounted for 9% of the company’s revenue in 2021, according to the document.
“In Russia, we employ 62,000 people who have poured their heart and soul into our McDonald’s brand to serve their communities. We work with hundreds of local, Russian suppliers and partners who produce the food for our menu and support our brand,” Kempczinski said. “And we serve millions of Russian customers each day who count on McDonald’s. In the thirty-plus years that McDonald’s has operated in Russia, we’ve become an essential part of the 850 communities in which we operate.”
But, he added, “at the same time, our values mean we cannot ignore the needless human suffering unfolding in Ukraine.”

Starbucks​

In a Tuesday message to employees, Starbucks CEO Kevin Johnson said that “today, we have decided to suspend all business activity in Russia.”
He added that “our licensed partner has agreed to immediately pause store operations and will provide support to the nearly 2,000 [employees] in Russia who depend on Starbucks for their livelihood.”
Johnson added that Starbucks is halting shipment of all Starbucks products to Russia. “We condemn the horrific attacks on Ukraine by Russia and our hearts go out to all those affected,” he said.

Coke​

Coca-Cola also said Tuesday that it is “suspending its business in Russia.”
The company stated that “our hearts are with the people who are enduring unconscionable effects from these tragic events in Ukraine,” adding that it will monitor the situation as things change.

PepsiCo, Danone and Unilever​

On Tuesday, PepsiCo CEO Ramon Laguarta laid out how PepsiCo is approaching the situation.


“Given the horrific events occurring in Ukraine we are announcing the suspension of the sale of Pepsi-Cola, and our global beverage brands in Russia, including 7Up and Mirinda.” Laguarta added that Pepsi is suspending capital investments, ads and promotional activity in Russia.
But PepsiCo will continue to sell some of its products, including baby formula, baby food, milk and other dairy options.
“We have a responsibility to continue to offer our other products in Russia, including daily essentials,” Laguarta said. “By continuing to operate, we will also continue to support the livelihoods of our 20,000 Russian associates and the 40,000 Russian agricultural workers in our supply chain as they face significant challenges and uncertainty ahead,” he added.
Farryl Bertmann, a registered dietitian and senior lecturer in the nutrition and food sciences department at the University of Vermont, warned that if big food companies leave Russia entirely the citizen population could suffer, even if they have other sources of food.
“I feel very strongly that people should be given the opportunity to purchase a variety of foods at different price points,” she said. “That can only be successfully done if access is there.”
She said that “ultimately, foods need to be made available,” adding, “I would be very concerned if the food environment [were] to dramatically change.”

Other companies have taken a similar approach to Pepsi.
Danone (DANOY), which makes Silk milk alternatives, Activia, Oikos yogurt, baby formula and more, said in a LinkedIn post on Sunday that “we have decided to suspend all investment projects in Russia,” adding that it would “maintain our production and distribution of fresh dairy products and infant nutrition, to still meet the essential food needs of the local population.”
Unilever (UL) made a similar statement this week, saying that “we will continue to supply our everyday essential food and hygiene products made in Russia to people in the country,” adding “we will keep this under close review.”
The company noted it is has suspended imports of its products to Russia and is stopping all investment in the country, in addition to stopping exports from there. It said it won’t profit from its presence in Russia.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/08/politics/russian-energy-import-ban/index.html
The announcements followed pressure from critics who called for the companies to leave Russia. Several Western companies across multiple industries have halted operations in Russia after the country’s attack on Ukraine, yet some restaurants are continuing to sell their products in the country.

Facing pressure​

For some restaurant chains, that may be because locations are operated by franchises, giving corporate owners less control.
Yum Brands (YUM), which owns KFC, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and the Habit Grill, said in a statement that it “has suspended all investment and restaurant development in Russia.”
The company added that it will “redirect all profits from operations in Russia to humanitarian efforts,” in addition to making donations to the Red Cross through the Yum Brands Foundation.
The company also said it is “suspending operations of KFC company-owned restaurants in Russia and finalizing an agreement to suspend all Pizza Hut restaurant operations in Russia, in partnership with its master franchisee.”
“This action builds on our decision to suspend all investment and restaurant development in Russia and redirect all profits from operations in Russia to humanitarian efforts,” the company said in a news release.
Yum has about 1,000 KFC restaurants and 50 Pizza Hut locations in Russia. The company said that most of these are operated by independent owners.
On Twitter, people used boycott hashtags to target companies like McDonald’s and PepsiCo that until today were quiet about their plans for Russia. McDonald’s, PepsiCo and other companies were called out by New York State Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli.
Before McDonald’s made its announcement, DiNapoli emailed a number of companies represented in the New York State Common Retirement Fund, including PepsiCo and McDonald’s, urging them to stop doing business with Russia.
“Companies like McDonald’s and PepsiCo, which have a large footprint in Russia, need to consider whether doing business in Russia is worth the risk during this extraordinarily volatile time,” DiNaPoli said in a statement.
— CNN’s Robert North contributed to this report.

 

[notredomer23]

Way of life getting tougher on Russia

I saw a tweet but can’t find it so no credit to me, but discussing how all these fast food and soda brands are leaving Russia, we’re unintentionally turning Russia into the healthiest country in the world.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

. This does not sound good

 

[irishog77]

I saw a tweet but can’t find it so no credit to me, but discussing how all these fast food and soda brands are leaving Russia, we’re unintentionally turning Russia into the healthiest country in the world.

View attachment 3050429

https://y.yarn.co/500aa9e5-eb97-4821-96e3-1008d00b06b2_text.gif

 

[notredomer23]

Sickening

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Since Israel is one of the only countries left on reasonably good terms with both Ukraine and Russia, their media has been the least biased on this subject. Worth keeping in mind as you seek out reliable sources.

 

[Wild Bill]

Since Israel is one of the only countries left on reasonably good terms with both Ukraine and Russia, their media has been the least biased on this subject. Worth keeping in mind as you seek out reliable sources.

The same is true regarding their reporting on American politics.

Seems like a reasonable offer given the current circumstances.

 

[IrishLax]

That offer was brought up by someone earlier, and I don't think Ukraine would have an issue ceding territory. I do absolutely 100% expect that asking them to "disarm" and go neutral is a deal breaker... because what happens when 5 years from now Russia fabricates more pretext for an invasion to take the whole country? Then you have no ability to defend yourself.

"Surrender or we commit more war crimes" is an interesting ploy, and problematic when you consider what is really being implied. There is a reason people don't negotiate with terrorists.

 

[IrishLax]

Question for @Whiskeyjack … is there any number of hospitals getting bombed // women and children getting murdered where you would have the US get more involved with direct or indirect military support? Like if if we accept that the current amount of war crimes is not enough to do more, is there a level that is enough? A million Ukrainian civilians? 10 million Ukrainian civilians? All of them? Or is it just white and black we shouldn’t involve ourselves, period.

 

[NDBoiler]

Sickening

Very sad indeed.

Is there any context to this? Like, was there a military target nearby and this was an “errant” attack, or just straight up Russia doesn’t give a F where rounds land?

 

[Irish#1]

Question for @Whiskeyjack … is there any number of hospitals getting bombed // women and children getting murdered where you would have the US get more involved with direct or indirect military support? Like if if we accept that the current amount of war crimes is not enough to do more, is there a level that is enough? A million Ukrainian civilians? 10 million Ukrainian civilians? All of them? Or is it just white and black we shouldn’t involve ourselves, period.

I have to say that after seeing the bombing of the children's and maternity hospitals, it's clear to me that we need to do more with military support immediately. If Putin is bombing hospitals, there is no way you can trust him to stay true to any agreement.

He's already made trumped up excuses for invading. Supply the fighter jets whether they are MIG's from Poland or our own. We're already supplying other military aid and Putin hasn't declared war on the U.S. and I suspect he won't. He seems to be the playground bully that picks on the weakest, but stays away from the kid that's bigger than him.

Even if Ukraine agrees, I would not pull back any sanctions for a very long time. This man has to pay for this.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

That offer was brought up by someone earlier, and I don't think Ukraine would have an issue ceding territory. I do absolutely 100% expect that asking them to "disarm" and go neutral is a deal breaker... because what happens when 5 years from now Russia fabricates more pretext for an invasion to take the whole country? Then you have no ability to defend yourself.

"Surrender or we commit more war crimes" is an interesting ploy, and problematic when you consider what is really being implied. There is a reason people don't negotiate with terrorists.

quite right. They are, indeed ALREADY violating the Budapest Memorandum. Why would anyone take any “assurance” from them seriously?

 

[NDRock]

That offer was brought up by someone earlier, and I don't think Ukraine would have an issue ceding territory. I do absolutely 100% expect that asking them to "disarm" and go neutral is a deal breaker... because what happens when 5 years from now Russia fabricates more pretext for an invasion to take the whole country? Then you have no ability to defend yourself.

"Surrender or we commit more war crimes" is an interesting ploy, and problematic when you consider what is really being implied. There is a reason people don't negotiate with terrorists.

Yeah, go ask Carthage how surrendering your weapons works out for you.

 

[Wild Bill]

That offer was brought up by someone earlier, and I don't think Ukraine would have an issue ceding territory. I do absolutely 100% expect that asking them to "disarm" and go neutral is a deal breaker... because what happens when 5 years from now Russia fabricates more pretext for an invasion to take the whole country? Then you have no ability to defend yourself.

"Surrender or we commit more war crimes" is an interesting ploy, and problematic when you consider what is really being implied. There is a reason people don't negotiate with terrorists.

Agree with respect to ceding territory. Crimea is easy. It's all Russian. Donbas will be more complex. Russia should not control Donbas in it's entirey. They need to parce it apart in a way that makes sense for the people who live there and that won't be an easy task.

Neutrality may not be in the interest of some Ukrainians but it's in the best interest of an overwhelming majority of them. Common sense dictates that neighboring nations should work to have a good relationship and live in peace side by side. I don't live in a fantasy land so I know this isn't an option sometimes but neutrality should be the goal when it comes to neighboring nations, especially when they have a shared history.

I understand forcing a nation to disarm has been a "solution" to many disputes between nations but it violates the rights of a sovereign nation and doesn't sit well with me. I don't know if this is something that would be negotiable but I agree it's problematic with respect to future relations with Russia and perhaps other nations.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Question for @Whiskeyjack … is there any number of hospitals getting bombed // women and children getting murdered where you would have the US get more involved with direct or indirect military support? Like if if we accept that the current amount of war crimes is not enough to do more, is there a level that is enough? A million Ukrainian civilians? 10 million Ukrainian civilians? All of them? Or is it just white and black we shouldn’t involve ourselves, period.

It's not a utilitarian calculation of hospitals bombed or puppies kicked before we risk nuclear war by shooting directly at the Russian military. There's simply no way to justify war with Russia on those grounds, because the evil you're risking is so much worse than whatever we'd be trying to stop.

We could have avoided this situation in the early 90s by fully integrating them into the Western economy and building them up into another ally a la Germany, Japan and South Korea. Our elites instead opted to loot their country and leave them under mafia rule. So now we're dealing with a Russia that is militaristic (but without the resources or technology to ever compete with us on that front again), in this weird limbo between East and West, and yet still has nukes.

Ukraine has a long history with Russia, and is basically indefensible against her larger eastern neighbor. Even if Putin dedicates the troops to occupy the entire country, builds concentration camps, and starts liquidating the 37 million Ukrainians west of the Dnieper, I don't think we'd risk it. We'd likely start aggressively arming, training and/or stationing NATO troops in Moldova and the Baltics to ensure this doesn't happen anywhere else; which would coincidentally aggravate all the underlying factors that brought us to this situation, but these things often turn into vicious cycles.

The only way to achieve effective long-term resolution is to bring Russia into the Western fold. Until that happens, things are going to go from bad to worse.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Even if Ukraine agrees, I would not pull back any sanctions for a very long time. This man has to pay for this.

I understand the desire to punish Putin, but a similar outlook was a big reason why WWII followed the Treaty of Versaille. Would much rather look toward minimizing suffering and death instead.

 

[ACamp1900]

Gluten producing bastards....

 

[Irish#1]

I understand the desire to punish Putin, but a similar outlook was a big reason why WWII followed the Treaty of Versaille. Would much rather look toward minimizing suffering and death instead.

Regardless of the wheat contribution, I would be in favor of long term sanctions. Putin isn't going to allow Russia to westernize where it would benefit everyone. Make the conditions harsh enough that the Russian people force a change where a guy like Putin isn't an option.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Regardless of the wheat contribution, I would be in favor of long term sanctions. Putin isn't going to allow Russia to westernize where it would benefit everyone. Make the conditions harsh enough that the Russian people force a change where a guy like Putin isn't an option.

Or push them into the arms of China, thereby forcing us to defend on two fronts for the foreseeable future.

 

[irishog77]

I understand the desire to punish Putin, but a similar outlook was a big reason why WWII followed the Treaty of Versaille. Would much rather look toward minimizing suffering and death instead.

Agreed on being over-punitive. The lessons of the Treaty of Versailles should continue to stick with humanity for a long, long time.

I wonder, though, that some sort of system of eternal sanctions won't have the same sort of effect though that the Treaty of Versailles did? I'm not sure when, but russians are probably staring down needing a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. Even before that day, not being able to use a credit card at all, let alone to go buy a Coke or a Big Mac, may make it tougher to bring russia into the Western fold.

 

[irishog77]

Or push them into the arms of China, thereby forcing us to defend on two fronts for the foreseeable future.

This has been may main concern since the summer of '21. And still is today.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Agreed on being over-punitive. The lessons of the Treaty of Versailles should continue to stick with humanity for a long, long time.

I wonder, though, that some sort of system of eternal sanctions won't have the same sort of effect though that the Treaty of Versailles did? I'm not sure when, but russians are probably staring down needing a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. Even before that day, not being able to use a credit card at all, let alone to go buy a Coke or a Big Mac, may make it tougher to bring russia into the Western fold.

Right. Sanctions need to be designed to stop the invasion ASAP, not to inflict maximum pain on Russia for the long-term. Rising costs for fuel and bread are going to create a lot of pain for poor and vulnerable people all over the world, and will make ultimate reconciliation even harder down the line.

We win by turning enemies into friends and sharing our prosperity with them. Getting punitive here is only going to create a new Sino-Russia alliance that will cause far worse problems than what we're watching in Ukraine.

 

[Irish#1]

Right. Sanctions need to be designed to stop the invasion ASAP, not to inflict maximum pain on Russia for the long-term. Rising costs for fuel and bread are going to create a lot of pain for poor and vulnerable people all over the world, and will make ultimate reconciliation even harder down the line.

We win by turning enemies into friends and sharing our prosperity with them. Getting punitive here is only going to create a new Sino-Russia alliance that will cause far worse problems than what we're watching in Ukraine.

Good philosophy if you can get it to work, but not everyone wants to be a friend. There's no reason you can't be punitive to the point they get rid of Putin, then start the friendship and help them prosper.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Good philosophy if you can get it to work, but not everyone wants to be a friend. There's no reason you can't be punitive to the point they get rid of Putin, then start the friendship and help them prosper.

Russia's culture and economy make them much more resistant to sanctions than most. Would be great if it happens, but I wouldn't count on overthrowing Putin by turning Russia into a pariah state. We've gotta have other avenues.

 

[Rogue219]