Russia Invades Ukraine

[Irish#1]

 

[NDdomer2]

It is somewhat difficult to sift through all the political talk of the war to find news of the actual war on this thread. I think the updates given by you all are awesome, just so much extra stuff....maybe create a new thread, like The Politics behind the War...or something like that.

Try Twitter. There's plenty of tweets posted here if good follows to keep an eye on.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

This is interesting. On one hand, it’s funny, of course, aw, poor baby, you have to type out a long number…

but, it also revealing how westernized the Russian populace has become. Which is of course, a good thing. They will have more predictable reactions to things if they think more like we do. Behavior and thought process like this (obv. The apple Pay part) would have been unthinkable during the late Cold War era…

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

This is interesting. On one hand, it’s funny, of course, aw, poor baby, you have to type out a long number…

but, it also revealing how westernized the Russian populace has become. Which is of course, a good thing. They will have more predictable reactions to things if they think more like we do. Behavior and thought process like this (obv. The apple Pay part) would have been unthinkable during the late Cold War era…

That post is from 4chan it appears.
100% chance either satire or straight up troll

Actually, just 100% troll lol

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

That post is from 4chan it appears.
100% chance either satire or straight up troll

Actually, just 100% troll lol

Ahhhh. The point stands anyway.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Perhaps he's not wrong. But it also highlights the stupidity that is "Russia doesn't want it's bordering countries to be in NATO" when 1) there already are some and 2) taking Ukraine literally puts Russia in the position of having multiple countries on it's border who are in NATO.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Perhaps he's not wrong. But it also highlights the stupidity that is "Russia doesn't want it's bordering countries to be in NATO" when 1) there already are some and 2) taking Ukraine literally puts Russia in the position of having multiple countries on it's border who are in NATO.

i may be incorrect here but I believe historically Ukraine not being in NATO was never part of any negotiations. Russia has taken the stance that it’s important to them and that Ukraine being in NATO is unacceptable. I’m 100% certain a stable and productive Ukraine is a great asset to the EU and a great deterrent/loss to Russia. I’m fine with Russia taking the L on this.

I understand why Russia is upset with NATO swooping up all the former Soviet blocs but IDGAF if they are butt hurt over it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Perhaps he's not wrong. But it also highlights the stupidity that is "Russia doesn't want it's bordering countries to be in NATO" when 1) there already are some and 2) taking Ukraine literally puts Russia in the position of having multiple countries on it's border who are in NATO.

Russia didn't border a NATO member for the first 53 years of the alliance. It wasn't until 2002, when the Baltic states were included, did that change. And the Russians were pissed at the time, and have been ever since. Those were the first former Soviet states to join NATO, and Russian troops had been stationed there as recently as 1995. Lots of foreign policies experts decried that particular expansion as a terrible idea at the time, but this was at the peak of our "end of history"/ unipolar moment, so they were ignored.

Regarding (2), it's possible that Putin has no intention of holding western Ukraine for that very reason (it would extend the border he shares with NATO members significantly, thereby increasing the chance of a military confrontation that ends poorly for him). If he only takes the land east of the Dneiper and withdraws from western Ukraine with guarantees of neutrality, he avoids that problem.

i may be incorrect here but I believe historically Ukraine not being in NATO was never part of any negotiations. Russia has taken the stance that it’s important to them and that Ukraine being in NATO is unacceptable. I’m 100% certain a stable and productive Ukraine is a great asset to the EU and a great deterrent/loss to Russia. I’m fine with Russia taking the L on this.

I understand why Russia is upset with NATO swooping up all the former Soviet blocs but IDGAF if they are butt hurt over it.

It's not about their feelings. It's about managing the risk of nuclear war. Great powers naturally don't want to share a border with hostile nations, so wherever possible, they try to maintain a buffer zone of neutral neighbors. Intentionally encircling a nuclear power is not something that has ever been tried before.

 

[IrishLax]

Whiskeyjack gonna have to change his name to Vodkajack

 

[Irish#1]

Russia didn't border a NATO member for the first 53 years of the alliance. It wasn't until 2002, when the Baltic states were included, did that change. And the Russians were pissed at the time, and have been ever since. Those were the first former Soviet states to join NATO, and Russian troops had been stationed there as recently as 1995. Lots of foreign policies experts decried that particular expansion as a terrible idea at the time, but this was at the peak of our "end of history"/ unipolar moment, so they were ignored.

Regarding (2), it's possible that Putin has no intention of holding western Ukraine for that very reason (it would extend the border he shares with NATO members significantly, thereby increasing the chance of a military confrontation that ends poorly for him). If he only takes the land east of the Dneiper and withdraws from western Ukraine with guarantees of neutrality, he avoids that problem.

It's not about their feelings. It's about managing the risk of nuclear war. Great powers naturally don't want to share a border with hostile nations, so wherever possible, they try to maintain a buffer zone of neutral neighbors. Intentionally encircling a nuclear power is not something that has ever been tried before.

Then democracy started to crawl its way east. I have a hard time believing Putin only wants those areas. If so, why even move further into Ukraine?

 

[ACamp1900]

Whiskeyjack gonna have to change his name to Vodkajack

Well the dude doesn’t drink White Ukrainians,…

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Then democracy started to crawl its way east. I have a hard time believing Putin only wants those areas. If so, why even move further into Ukraine?

Does living in a Democracy convey some special immunity to radiation? ICBMs don't discriminate.

Putin wants regime change in Kiev. He has to take the city to make that happen. But holding western Ukraine thereafter will be much more difficult.

Whiskeyjack gonna have to change his name to Vodkajack

I don't want my kids to die in a nuclear firestorm because a bunch of Couch Generals who's brains were addled by the Marvel Cinematic Universe think it'd be fun to LARP as the Avengers in Eastern Europe.

 

[TorontoGold]

Does living in a Democracy convey some special immunity to radiation? ICBMs don't discriminate.

Putin wants regime change in Kiev. He has to take Kiev to make that happen. But holding western Ukraine will be much more difficult.

I don't want my kids to die in a nuclear firestorm because a bunch of Couch Generals who's brains were addled by the Marvel Cinematic Universe think it'd be fun to LARP as the Avengers in Eastern Europe.

They wouldn't be your kids, they would be other peoples kids! tsk tsk

 

[NorthDakota]

No, you're Donny from here on out and I have more experience and evidence in dealing with the Russians than you could ever imagine.

Who is Donny? I am confused.

That's great that you have experience dealing with Russians and evidence of dealing with Russians. I have no idea what the latter means. Is English your first language?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

They wouldn't be your kids, they would be other peoples kids! tsk tsk

Don't get me the started! The vast majority of people beating the war drums right now have never seen an actual battlefield, and will never fight themselves, nor will they be risking their children here.

It's grimly amusing watching liberals and Progressives become suddenly bloodthirsty. They did the same thing in Iraq, but once that war was no longer fashionable, they were of course against it all along. F*cking Chickenhawks.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

My fault for not being clear in what I was referencing. Day one of the invasion, all the talking heads were shocked he actually did it and they were trying to rationalize his position. What was he thinking? Why would he do it? How far will he go? Many alleged it was because of NATO and that Putin wanted all of Ukraine....hence my comment. I think it's a stupid take on the situation given all the points Whiskey just laid out. Taking ALL of Ukraine makes no sense. Again, sorry for not being clear.

Good luck to Putin/Russia holding any of Ukraine long term. The rise of a lifelong insurgency seems guaranteed. I genuinely think Putin put himself and Russia in a lose/lose situation. Even China is changing it's tune on the situation.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Don't get me the started! The vast majority of people beating the war drums right now have never seen an actual battlefield, and will never fight themselves, nor will they be risking their children here.

It's grimly amusing watching liberals and Progressives become suddenly bloodthirsty. They did the same thing in Iraq, but once that war was no longer fashionable, they were of course against it all along. F*cking Chickenhawks.

Precisely the "talking heads" I was referencing.

 

[TorontoGold]

Don't get me the started! The vast majority of people beating the war drums right now have never seen an actual battlefield, and will never fight themselves, nor will they be risking their children here.

It's grimly amusing watching liberals and Progressives become suddenly bloodthirsty. They did the same thing in Iraq, but once that war was no longer fashionable, they were of course against it all along. F*cking Chickenhawks.

Reminds me of the old Simpsons proverb.

 

[Irish#1]

BeyondWords
French President Emmanuel Macron said he’s convinced the "worst is yet to come" from Russian President Vladimir Putin after a tense 90-minute call between the two leaders Thursday about the war in Ukraine, according to reports.

The call was initiated by Putin and was distinctly more confrontational than previous exchanges with the Russian leader, the Washington Post reported. The two men also spoke Monday and last Thursday as Macron tries to keep diplomatic channels open.

"Your country will pay dearly because it will end up as an isolated country, weakened and under sanctions for a very long time," Macron said in the phone call, according to his office. He also "called on Vladimir Putin to not lie to himself."



"Attempts to gain time by dragging negotiations will only lead to additional requirements for Kyiv in our negotiating position," Putin said to Macron, according to the Post.

"I spoke to President Putin this morning," Macron tweeted after the phone call. "He refuses to stop his attacks on Ukraine at this point. It is vital to maintain dialogue to avoid human tragedy. I will continue my efforts and contacts. We must avoid the worst."

 

[Irish#1]

Does living in a Democracy convey some special immunity to radiation? ICBMs don't discriminate.

Putin wants regime change in Kiev. He has to take the city to make that happen. But holding western Ukraine thereafter will be much more difficult.

I don't want my kids to die in a nuclear firestorm because a bunch of Couch Generals who's brains were addled by the Marvel Cinematic Universe think it'd be fun to LARP as the Avengers in Eastern Europe.

Whiskey, you need a drink! Apologies if I wasn't clear. I was simply pointing out that after those years democracy started moving east and started to decay the Soviet empire leading to where we are. I'm pretty sure that I haven't endorsed or suggested using nuclear weapons was an answer.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Does living in a Democracy convey some special immunity to radiation? ICBMs don't discriminate.

Putin wants regime change in Kiev. He has to take the city to make that happen. But holding western Ukraine thereafter will be much more difficult.

I don't want my kids to die in a nuclear firestorm because a bunch of Couch Generals who's brains were addled by the Marvel Cinematic Universe think it'd be fun to LARP as the Avengers in Eastern Europe.

Got to admit if we had Antman this shit would be Done son!

 

[Irish#1]

Got to admit if we had Antman this shit would Done son!

F@ck Antman, Batman, Ironman, Spiderman and all the others. Just send in the original and still bad ass of them all, Superman!

 

[ACamp1900]

Reps to Whiskey for throwing in shade at Marvel fans,…

Also, it is odd to follow the far left and right talking heads, who always just parrot bashing each other,… I can’t think of any other event that got Young Turks and Daily Wires of the world saying the same thing and using much the same tone,… Ukraine should be collectively honored with the Presidential Medal of Freedom just for that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey, you need a drink! Apologies if I wasn't clear. I was simply pointing out that after those years democracy started moving east and started to decay the Soviet empire leading to where we are. I'm pretty sure that I haven't endorsed or suggested using nuclear weapons was an answer.

Apologies for the quick draw. I've seen that argument offered earnestly on Twitter recently, though--that once a country opts for "democracy", we are then duty-bound to let them into NATO and defend them under Article 5. I can appreciate the desire for libs to protect fellow believers, but it'd be easier to sympathize with them if they recognized that instinct as a religious one.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Reps to Whiskey for throwing in shade at Marvel fans,…

Also, it is odd to follow the far left and right talking heads, who always just parrot bashing each other,… I can’t think of any other event that got Young Turks and Daily Wires of the world saying the same thing and using much the same tone,… Ukraine should be collectively honored with the Presidential Medal of Freedom just for that.

Any time both ends of the spectrum drop the political theater and suddenly start singing from the same hymnal, you should immediately reach for your wallet and demand to see the fine print.

 

[ACamp1900]

Any time both ends of spectrum drop the political theater and suddenly start singing from the same hymnal, you should immediately reach for your wallet and demand to see the fine print.

Right!?!? Lol

Acid flashbacks of No Child Left Behind

 

[PerthDomer]

For the people who think we triggered Russia with NATO expansion, where would you stop? No baltics? No Poland? No Romania? Should China cede outer Mongolia and Manchuria to create buffer states? If you give a putin an inch he'll take a mile. He wants pre WWI boundaries which include Poland and other parts of the EU.

Also. The thing that threatens Putin is more is EU expansion. Improved standards of living for Slavic people outside of Russia threatens his worldview. That's why he's going after the Ukraine. They didn't have a shot at NATO expansion for at least 10 years.

 

[Irish#1]

Apologies for the quick draw. I've seen that argument offered earnestly on Twitter recently, though--that once a country opts for "democracy", we are then duty-bound to let them into NATO and defend them under Article 5. I can appreciate the desire for libs to protect fellow believers, but it'd be easier to sympathize with them if they recognized that instinct as a religious one.

No worries. I don't want any nukes fired at my kids or grandkids either. I don't think NATO should be a given, but I don't mind helping a country get a democracy established. Besides how do you justify adding a country to NATO that is almost 6,000 miles from the Atlantic?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

No worries. I don't want any nukes fired at my kids or grandkids either. I don't think NATO should be a given, but I don't mind helping a country get a democracy established. Besides how do you justify adding a country to NATO that is almost 6,000 miles from the Atlantic?

Building off your last sentence (without italics this time), Ukraine was the capitol of the Kievan Rus, the foundation of Slavic civilization. For those who still have a sense of Slavic nationalism, watching Ukraine join NATO or the EU would be a bit like watching Rome fall to the Byzantine Empire for Catholics. The history here is real, and pretending its all pretense for Putin's will to power does not improve our understanding of the situation.