UFOs, Paranormal, Pseudoscience Thread

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,975
Reaction score
6,464
Cack, you asked about Corbell, Elizondo, etc and I've not yet gotten back to you.

Corbell is an entertainment filmmaker and a sideline recipient of a good break for his business. He seems interested in the subject but is a bit player. No one, to my knowledge, knows why he was the recipient of the first leaked film and story.

Luis Elizondo is legitimately who he says he is --- intelligence, ex-CIA, project leader on the small study that he speaks about. He was an "ordinary" intel operative, i.e. not some deep black superagent. He was given the job of overseer for the CIA on this project probably because they didn't want to put a lot of money into what was essentially a collecting operation. Elizondo, however, seems not to have treated this as sh!t assignment. As far as we can tell, Elizondo's remarks on the project's nature are legit.

The project in its later resurrection at least seems to be the product of billionaire Bob Bigelow's influence on politicians. Bigelow has always been intensely interested in UFOs (I consulted for him briefly in the late 80s before he set up his own organization --- VERY difficult man to work for by the way.) Being in Nevada, Bigelow had been a big donor to Harry Reid --- forget the politics, Bob would be seeking influence not philosophy --- and also became more generally influential through his government contracts as Bigelow Aerospace. Thus he got three Senators (both sides of the aisle) to push the CIA/Military to create this case collection project and let some form of team analyze incidents. Pressure worked at least as far as the CIA doing something to get Congress off its back. Whether Elizondo's group was brand new, or a re-purposing of a prior project is not known to the research community, but it is likely that this is when Elizondo got assigned (I'm not an insider on the CIA machinations here and so can easily be wrong.) Nevertheless, some collecting and at least crude assessments were made, and almost none of the collected cases could be explained --- we are still waiting for release of the bulk case documents, even with the expected National Security redactments.

AATIP is something entirely else. This is the Tom Delonge thing. He has been a closet UFO enthusiast for a long time apparently and knows a little about the field but not really a lot. But he has/had money to spend and set up the organization hoping to get the files and assess them with some self-created team. Elizondo, now retired, was available, and signed on. Other people were brought/bought on. Most of these people have no track record in UFO research and so far the organization has shown the rest of us nothing. This doesn't mean they are incompetents, clowns, fast-buck artists, fame grabbers, or spies, simply that they haven't demonstrated any production. (other than showing up in front of cameras.)

The two questions most interesting to the research community are: will the CIA ever release their collected stack of cases? and have they already released some which we have not seen to Bob Bigelow, and if so will HE ever share the data? (Bob's not great at sharing info.)

That's at least some info on this circus. Fortunately it's a circus which, due to insider leaks, has shown some real substance.
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
Messages
5,644
Reaction score
3,487
I find people have opinions about a great many things of which they know little to nothing about and they will belittle, subvert, obscure or obfuscate the more knowledgeable persons on matters of topic. I know jack shit about farming and my opinions on the matter carry little weight relative to a 3rd generation farmer whose family has been fighting big Ag for half a century. I'll defer to them on a lot simply because I know I don't know shit about it. That doesnt mean I have to accept what they tell me and I may dig more on the matter, but it carries much more weight than my own ignorant opinions and I at least accept that.
Some people post tin foil hat memes and batboy pics too.
 

NDFAN420

Well-known member
Messages
789
Reaction score
356
51ANKG7JHGL.jpg
 

Cackalacky2.0

Specimen
Messages
9,023
Reaction score
8,018
Cack, you asked about Corbell, Elizondo, etc and I've not yet gotten back to you.

Corbell is an entertainment filmmaker and a sideline recipient of a good break for his business. He seems interested in the subject but is a bit player. No one, to my knowledge, knows why he was the recipient of the first leaked film and story.

Luis Elizondo is legitimately who he says he is --- intelligence, ex-CIA, project leader on the small study that he speaks about. He was an "ordinary" intel operative, i.e. not some deep black superagent. He was given the job of overseer for the CIA on this project probably because they didn't want to put a lot of money into what was essentially a collecting operation. Elizondo, however, seems not to have treated this as sh!t assignment. As far as we can tell, Elizondo's remarks on the project's nature are legit.

The project in its later resurrection at least seems to be the product of billionaire Bob Bigelow's influence on politicians. Bigelow has always been intensely interested in UFOs (I consulted for him briefly in the late 80s before he set up his own organization --- VERY difficult man to work for by the way.) Being in Nevada, Bigelow had been a big donor to Harry Reid --- forget the politics, Bob would be seeking influence not philosophy --- and also became more generally influential through his government contracts as Bigelow Aerospace. Thus he got three Senators (both sides of the aisle) to push the CIA/Military to create this case collection project and let some form of team analyze incidents. Pressure worked at least as far as the CIA doing something to get Congress off its back. Whether Elizondo's group was brand new, or a re-purposing of a prior project is not known to the research community, but it is likely that this is when Elizondo got assigned (I'm not an insider on the CIA machinations here and so can easily be wrong.) Nevertheless, some collecting and at least crude assessments were made, and almost none of the collected cases could be explained --- we are still waiting for release of the bulk case documents, even with the expected National Security redactments.

AATIP is something entirely else. This is the Tom Delonge thing. He has been a closet UFO enthusiast for a long time apparently and knows a little about the field but not really a lot. But he has/had money to spend and set up the organization hoping to get the files and assess them with some self-created team. Elizondo, now retired, was available, and signed on. Other people were brought/bought on. Most of these people have no track record in UFO research and so far the organization has shown the rest of us nothing. This doesn't mean they are incompetents, clowns, fast-buck artists, fame grabbers, or spies, simply that they haven't demonstrated any production. (other than showing up in front of cameras.)

The two questions most interesting to the research community are: will the CIA ever release their collected stack of cases? and have they already released some which we have not seen to Bob Bigelow, and if so will HE ever share the data? (Bob's not great at sharing info.)

That's at least some info on this circus. Fortunately it's a circus which, due to insider leaks, has shown some real substance.
Thanks OMM. I found Elizondo to be generally reliable if not a bit dramatic but none the less he seems to know more than he can leaglly share on several cases.
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
Messages
5,644
Reaction score
3,487
Apologies for the antagonistic post on my part.

However, OMM is a literal expert in this field. See his responses to each of your posts. Of course you're entitled to your opinion and I agree we should all be skeptics by nature, but your posts so far are the precise hand-waiving type posts that Mike was referring to. You just did the same thing to BobbyMac. All I meant by my post is that the people on this board take Mike's stance on this particular topic seriously and respectably because we know he's devoted his life to studying it. Again, sorry for essentially putting that in less civil terms yesterday.
It's all good. I may have been a bit flippant in my posts. My apologies.

I do try to treat others with dignity and respect. I don't insult or make fun.

What do you think about bigfoot and dinosaur type creatures that may still exist today in remote areas?
 

NDFAN420

Well-known member
Messages
789
Reaction score
356
It's all good. I may have been a bit flippant in my posts. My apologies.

I do try to treat others with dignity and respect. I don't insult or make fun.

What do you think about bigfoot and dinosaur type creatures that may still exist today in remote areas?

Next time you're at Barnes & Noble, ask them where their cryptozoological romance fan-fic section is located.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,975
Reaction score
6,464
I knew the leading Bigfoot, Yeti, and Extant Dinosaur explorers of the 1980s (one meets a lot of the better researchers at anomalies research conventions.) I'd recommend writings by Dr. Grover Krantz (Washington State University) and Dr. Roy Mackal (University of Chicago) as places to start. If you can find copies of the International Society of Cryptozoology (Journal titled simply Cryptozoology) you'll get fairly high level stuff. I was a member for many years and enjoyed the company. Those resources will not give anywhere near a full perspective, however. Though the fields are not nearly as large as UFOlogy, their history is still complex. For instance, none of Herman Regusters' (former NASA engineer) expeditions to west central Africa are in those publications, and the extremely rare Soviet studies of the thirties are not either --- this latter is forgivable in that the volumes containing that work are in Russian, and only a few copies are known. I was fortunate to receive one, plus translations, but too late to publish in Cryptozoology, as the society could not sustain economically. Most of the TV material is utter crap sadly, and almost 100% of the media-appearing personalities are money-grabbing morons and scam artists. Still, there is "something" to the Bigfoot/Yeti business, though for the extant dinosaur hypothesis optimism is hard to come by. The researchers should not be mocked on that latter, though, as the fact that central Africa has been geoplanetary-stable (just wobbling around a fixed latitude while the continents drifted) and remaining hot and wet, would theoretically allow an opening for big reptile survival, a la crocodilians.

That's it for me posting about Cryptozoology, though. I'm no expert despite having published two academic papers on cryptids. I can just imagine that the irritation for me posting on this might produce and it's not worth it. UFOs? OK. My reputation there is sufficient to ward off witch-hunters.
 

Sea Turtle

Slow and steady wins the race
Messages
5,644
Reaction score
3,487
I knew the leading Bigfoot, Yeti, and Extant Dinosaur explorers of the 1980s (one meets a lot of the better researchers at anomalies research conventions.) I'd recommend writings by Dr. Grover Krantz (Washington State University) and Dr. Roy Mackal (University of Chicago) as places to start. If you can find copies of the International Society of Cryptozoology (Journal titled simply Cryptozoology) you'll get fairly high level stuff. I was a member for many years and enjoyed the company. Those resources will not give anywhere near a full perspective, however. Though the fields are not nearly as large as UFOlogy, their history is still complex. For instance, none of Herman Regusters' (former NASA engineer) expeditions to west central Africa are in those publications, and the extremely rare Soviet studies of the thirties are not either --- this latter is forgivable in that the volumes containing that work are in Russian, and only a few copies are known. I was fortunate to receive one, plus translations, but too late to publish in Cryptozoology, as the society could not sustain economically. Most of the TV material is utter crap sadly, and almost 100% of the media-appearing personalities are money-grabbing morons and scam artists. Still, there is "something" to the Bigfoot/Yeti business, though for the extant dinosaur hypothesis optimism is hard to come by. The researchers should not be mocked on that latter, though, as the fact that central Africa has been geoplanetary-stable (just wobbling around a fixed latitude while the continents drifted) and remaining hot and wet, would theoretically allow an opening for big reptile survival, a la crocodilians.

That's it for me posting about Cryptozoology, though. I'm no expert despite having published two academic papers on cryptids. I can just imagine that the irritation for me posting on this might produce and it's not worth it. UFOs? OK. My reputation there is sufficient to ward off witch-hunters.
Thanks for the response. All of this stuff is interesting. With large swaths of land in parts of africa, the Amazon and siberia mostly unexplored, it wouldn't shock me if some truly amazing animals existed out there.
 

calvegas04

Well-known member
Messages
11,879
Reaction score
8,454
Thanks for the response. All of this stuff is interesting. With large swaths of land in parts of africa, the Amazon and siberia mostly unexplored, it wouldn't shock me if some truly amazing animals existed out there.
Bigfoot, dinosaurs and other large mammals would have been discovered by now. Only option for any large creatures being discovered would be deep ocean type stuff
 

Bishop2b5

SEC Exchange Student
Messages
8,933
Reaction score
6,160
Bigfoot, dinosaurs and other large mammals would have been discovered by now. Only option for any large creatures being discovered would be deep ocean type stuff
The best argument I've heard against Bigfoot is that we've never seen a dead one on the side of the road after being hit by a vehicle. Every other large land animal in the world has been hit by cars, trucks, or trains.
 

NDFAN420

Well-known member
Messages
789
Reaction score
356
Bigfoot, dinosaurs and other large mammals would have been discovered by now. Only option for any large creatures being discovered would be deep ocean type stuff
So you're saying that there is no Bat Boy?
 

BleedBlueGold

Well-known member
Messages
6,270
Reaction score
2,493
The best argument I've heard against Bigfoot is that we've never seen a dead one on the side of the road after being hit by a vehicle. Every other large land animal in the world has been hit by cars, trucks, or trains.
That's "the best argument"...? That the alleged animal, that potentially lives in the most remote areas of the country, has not been hit by a car. I mean, Harry and the Hendersons was a fine movie...but c'mon.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,625
Reaction score
2,729
Thousands Of Rare Gorillas Found In Congo - You would think100,000 plus gorillas would be hard to miss.

10 Fascinating New Species Discovered In The 21st Century — Steemit

I don't think people appreciate the vastness of wilderness in the US and Canada. You could fit the entire population of humans in Rhode Island without touching each other (about 2x2 foot square each so I guess some exceptions to that no-touching comment). I am Bigfoot believer - our Pacific Northwest is massive and not hard for me to imagine small groups migrating long distances making them hard to pin down. Much like UFOs I think serious research is squashed by hecklers and most sightings go unreported.

I find Dr. Jeff Meldrum the most compelling :
The Science Behind Bigfoot an Interview With Dr. Jeff Meldrum
Some of the detail in his analysis of the 300+ foot casts is hard to dispute IMO.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,975
Reaction score
6,464
This is the sort of thing that the better (i.e. rational) cryptozoologists think through. The African mountain gorilla would be considered by them to be the closest match in habitat and behavior to the alleged Yeti and Sasquatch, so comparative reasoning exists in the literature. When the lady scientist whose name I can't remember was researching these gorillas, she reported that she could be no further away from them than a "couple of bushes" and they were still so clever and furtive that they wouldn't give her a glimpse. So, again, the researchers aren't fools. They think about all that stuff. The seas were mentioned. Actually the oceans are now better monitored than the hinterlands of mountains --- USN satellite reconnaissance covers all of that down to very deep depths --- so "sea monster" hunters have been more discouraged than Yeti researchers.

I won't comment on Dr. Meldrum. I never met him and he was just after my time in that field. Dr. Krantz pioneered the footprint cast analyzes and I'll bet inspired Meldrum. I'll shut up on Bigfoot now, as I have a very radical, highly unpopular to all sides of the issue opinion, which is not worth getting into. This is a bit ironic in that I hold in my archives the Ivan Sanderson collection of files including several footprints of the 1950s-1970s era. Several authors and two film crews have visited them since I took over curatorship.
 
Last edited:

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,625
Reaction score
2,729
This is the sort of thing that the better (i.e. rational) cryptozoologists think through. The African mountain gorilla would be considered by them to be the closest match in habitat and behavior to the alleged Yeti and Sasquatch, so comparative reasoning exists in the literature. When the lady scientist whose name I can't remember was researching these gorillas, she reported that she could be no further away from them than a "couple of bushes" and they were still so clever and furtive that they wouldn't give her a glimpse. So, again, the researchers aren't fools. They think about all that stuff. The seas were mentioned. Actually the oceans are now better monitored than the hinterlands of mountains --- USN satellite reconnaissance covers all of that down to very deep depths --- so "sea monster" hunters have been more discouraged than Yeti researchers.

I won't comment on Dr. Meldrum. I never met him and he was just after my time in that field. Dr. Krantz pioneered the footprint cast analyzes and I'll bet inspired Meldrum. I'll shut up on Bigfoot now, as I have a very radical, highly unpopular to all sides of the issue opinion, which is not worth getting into. This is a bit ironic in that I hold in my archives the Ivan Sanderson collection of files including several footprints of the 1950s-1970s era. Several authors and two film crews have visited them since I took over curatorship.

I don't find "sea monsters" compelling. Plenty of undiscovered life but no long lost Megalodons or Pleasaurs, IMO. Kind of funny b/c my wife thinks the Loch Ness Monster is likely real but Bigfoot ridiculous while I feel the opposite.

That might be the ultimate tease OMM - DM me your theory! I am having a hard time even speculating.

To confirm your Dr. Krantz/Dr. Meldrum theory - The Man, The Myth, and The Legend of Grover Krantz
 
Last edited:

calvegas04

Well-known member
Messages
11,879
Reaction score
8,454
So any kind of bigfoot would need to mate at some point correct? If we can't find a single one with tens of thousands of people out hiking and camping every day. How is bigfoot finding his lady that is out there?
 

NDFAN420

Well-known member
Messages
789
Reaction score
356
So any kind of bigfoot would need to mate at some point correct? If we can't find a single one with tens of thousands of people out hiking and camping every day. How is bigfoot finding his lady that is out there?
Plenty of fish
 

Cackalacky2.0

Specimen
Messages
9,023
Reaction score
8,018
So any kind of bigfoot would need to mate at some point correct? If we can't find a single one with tens of thousands of people out hiking and camping every day. How is bigfoot finding his lady that is out there?
It’s because cryptids are actually alien life forms that the aliens drop off on earth as an evolutionary expiriment.
 

T-Boone

Well-known member
Messages
8,400
Reaction score
4,796
the more I hear from cosmologists about the size of the universe and stuff like many worlds theory the more I think we have likely been visited.
 

Irish#1

Livin' Your Dream!
Staff member
Messages
44,599
Reaction score
20,060
When I was younger, I firmly believed in Aliens and Big Foot, but as I've grown older, I find myself closer to the fence. I still think there's something there, but always wonder. After all these years, why neither has been found? We always assume the aliens are superior. If true, why haven't they just dropped in instead of running whenever there is a sighting?
 
Top