Offensive Line Thread

[IrishLax]

I believe Matt Balis and HH overlapped just one year so it’ll be interesting to see what HH can do with the OL that have been going through the Built by Balis program the last several years.

Feel like I haven’t seen you round these parts in ages. Hope you’re doing well!

 

[Dizzyphil]

I believe Matt Balis and HH overlapped just one year so it’ll be interesting to see what HH can do with the OL that have been going through the Built by Balis program the last several years.

Agreed.

Rd 1 / 16 Zack Martin
Rd 3 / 25 Chris Watt
Rd 1 / 6 Ronnie Stanley
Rd 2 / 19 Nick Martin
Rd 1 / 6 Quentin Nelson
Rd 1 / 9 Mike McGlinchey

Joe Moore Award years:
2015 (first year of award) finalist
2017 Awarded 1[SUP]st[/SUP] place

I think HH has the ability to return the Irish OL back to where he left them.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

Agreed.

Rd 1 / 16 Zack Martin
Rd 3 / 25 Chris Watt
Rd 1 / 6 Ronnie Stanley
Rd 2 / 19 Nick Martin
Rd 1 / 6 Quentin Nelson
Rd 1 / 9 Mike McGlinchey

Joe Moore Award years:
2015 (first year of award) finalist
2017 Awarded 1[SUP]st[/SUP] place

I think HH has the ability to return the Irish OL back to where he left them.

And if our QB play improves as well, that will allow the OL and run game to shine that much more!

 

[BeatSC]

You're cherry picking shit here...... Chicago's OL was brutal before HH got there and he sure as hell didn't have much to work with. Been a Bears fan all my life, the talent level was severely lacking

When was the last time the bears had a QB that would compliment a running game with a passing game. Same could be said for their pedestrian WRs over the years. I can not think of one good or better QB since I started paying attention to the Bears in the 60’s.

Don’t say McMahon either. He had Payton and a defense.

 

[Grahambo]

Feel like I haven’t seen you round these parts in ages. Hope you’re doing well!

It’s been a while! All is well on this end of the screen! Glad to see the board still chugging along!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I believe Matt Balis and HH overlapped just one year so it’ll be interesting to see what HH can do with the OL that have been going through the Built by Balis program the last several years.

Welcome back!

 

[ulukinatme]

Hiestand’s run yards per carry was 28th and 29th in the Chicago his two years. I don’t think any NFL coach would have any choice but to fire him.

I think Hiestand is awesome at recruiting and pass protection but against good secondaries in college you need to be able to run.

I had similar criticisms towards Harry when he came in. He's absolutely the best with pass blocking. The run blocking is sketchy sometimes, but as others have said that may have been on Long's style too so we'll have to see. I'd like to see what happens when Harry gets a hold on Ballis guys for sure. Even if we're not opening huge holes under Harry, we still had some strong running games under him and he's really the best there is today.

 

[ulukinatme]

Just wanna say if Harry does come back I've been calling for it since early September at least, and really since the Bears let him go...but sources kept saying he wasn't a take because a few entitled kids couldn't hack his style. Been harping on Quinn all year, this wasn't the first time he struggled to reload the OL even if part of the problem was a few bad recruiting cycles.

 

[OCIrish]

When was the last time the bears had a QB that would compliment a running game with a passing game. Same could be said for their pedestrian WRs over the years. I can not think of one good or better QB since I started paying attention to the Bears in the 60’s.

Don’t say McMahon either. He had Payton and a defense.

Cannot and will not disagree with anything you stated......they haven't had good OL play consistently since the 80's. QB, WR, hell.....just about anything offensively for the past 50 yrs has been bad to unwatchable football at times. I was just merely pointing out the lack of talent HH had to work with his last go around in Chicago

 

[Grahambo]

Welcome back!

Thanks brother! Nice to be back in the mix!

 

[Grahambo]

Agreed.

Rd 1 / 16 Zack Martin
Rd 3 / 25 Chris Watt
Rd 1 / 6 Ronnie Stanley
Rd 2 / 19 Nick Martin
Rd 1 / 6 Quentin Nelson
Rd 1 / 9 Mike McGlinchey

Joe Moore Award years:
2015 (first year of award) finalist
2017 Awarded 1[SUP]st[/SUP] place

I think HH has the ability to return the Irish OL back to where he left them.

I think that makes a great recruiting pitch and if rumors of Chris Watt coming in are true, then we know who will be on the road recruiting for HH. It could help Jarrett Patterson in his decision to come back as well.

 

[NDdomer2]

I think that makes a great recruiting pitch and if rumors of Chris Watt coming in are true, then we know who will be on the road recruiting for HH. It could help Jarrett Patterson in his decision to come back as well.

This can't happen unless watt is the coach. If that's the case I'm not sure how much coaching an analyst can do it's muddy waters to me. Maybe someone else knows more.

 

[SouthSideChiDomer]

This can't happen unless watt is the coach. If that's the case I'm not sure how much coaching an analyst can do it's muddy waters to me. Maybe someone else knows more.

Yeah, analysts can't hit the road. However, in the offseason when there is coaching turnover, analysts do go on the road as a temporary fill in for the missing assistant. We saw it this year with Chad Bowden going on the road when we were down a coach. But that is also close to signing day, so we might not have a ton of important visits to OL targets, so a more recruiting specific guy might be better to fill in than a position specific guy.

The bigger thing for recruiting would be Watt being able to text and talk to recruits and meet them when they come on campus. That's what guys like Bowden do now, so its within the rules (or at least is a big enough loophole even our administration feels comfortable using it).

 

[Rogue219]

If Harry Hiestand is being blamed for the ills that plagued the Chicago Bears in 2018 and 2019, that's one hot agenda there.

He had two guys get to the Pro Bowl in 2018 when they won the NFC North. Then things went to shit in 2019 and he got fired with a TE coach and a couple other sacrificial lambs while the real problems all got to keep their jobs.

 

[chicago51]

Harry Hiestand is in fact coming back I hope we run some buck sweep like we did in 2017, maybe little bit more counter as well. Our current run game has no soul, just inside zone/ outside zone.

I know that's modern spread football. But I a little bit more spice, and flavor with my run game.

 

[Wild Bill]

Harry Hiestand is in fact coming back I hope we run some buck sweep like we did in 2017, maybe little bit more counter as well. Our current run game has no soul, just inside zone/ outside zone.

I know that's modern spread football. But I a little bit more spice, and flavor with my run game.

Counter is totally underutilized imo. Ton of LBs just don't read keys that well, especially if you get the run game going. They're going to bite hard and a counter keeps them honest.

 

[Crazy Balki]

If Harry Hiestand is being blamed for the ills that plagued the Chicago Bears in 2018 and 2019, that's one hot agenda there.

He had two guys get to the Pro Bowl in 2018 when they won the NFC North. Then things went to shit in 2019 and he got fired with a TE coach and a couple other sacrificial lambs while the real problems all got to keep their jobs.

It cannot be understated how much Pace neglected to address the talent issue on the OL. Particularly Tackle.

From 2015 to 2020, Pace drafted ONE offensive tackle. ONE! And that one was a 6th rounder, so effectively zero with more than a slim chance to actually contribute.

How you go SIX WHOLE DRAFT CYCLES and completely neglect to address a position is beyond me. And it's not like the Bears had All Pro caliber tackles. They had a past his prime Jermon Bushrod and were so weak at the spot that they had to move Kyle Long from guard.

Pace's apparent long-term answer to the question of tackle was...Charles Leno and Bobby Massie, WTF!?

 

[IrishRazor82]

SIAP but ISD put together some stats on Heistan's time at ND. Not as exciting as you'd think..

Harry Hiestand:

2013, ND finished 80th in rushing.

2014, 68th in rushing, 70th in sacks allowed with 28.

2015, 28th in rushing, 58th with 26 sacks allowed

2016, 80th in rushing, 85th with 28 sacks allowed

2017, ND finished 7th in rushing with a dominant rushing team, but also had a running QB in Wimbush so they ran all the time, yet they still finished 83rd with 30 sacks allowed

Jeff Quinn:

2018, 51st in rushing, 49th in sacks allowed with 25

2019, 45th in rushing, 12th in sacks allowed with 16

2020, 24th rushing, 61st in sacks allowed with 26.

 

[IrishLax]

SIAP but ISD put together some stats on Heistan's time at ND. Not as exciting as you'd think..

Harry Hiestand:

2013, ND finished 80th in rushing.

2014, 68th in rushing, 70th in sacks allowed with 28.

2015, 28th in rushing, 58th with 26 sacks allowed

2016, 80th in rushing, 85th with 28 sacks allowed

2017, ND finished 7th in rushing with a dominant rushing team, but also had a running QB in Wimbush so they ran all the time, yet they still finished 83rd with 30 sacks allowed

Jeff Quinn:

2018, 51st in rushing, 49th in sacks allowed with 25

2019, 45th in rushing, 12th in sacks allowed with 16

2020, 24th rushing, 61st in sacks allowed with 26.

Yeah and people gave Mike Frank a ton of shit in that thread for 1) leaving off data points [for example sacks allowed in 2013] and 2) picking stats that say virtually nothing about how well the line played. I'm not going to get into the weeds on it because I'm pretty busy at work, but the advanced stats show quite clearly the same thing our eyes do -- that overall Hiestand's lines blew Quinn's out of the water. It wasn't close.

 

[Dizzyphil]

SIAP but ISD put together some stats on Heistan's time at ND. Not as exciting as you'd think..

Harry Hiestand:

2013, ND finished 80th in rushing.

2014, 68th in rushing, 70th in sacks allowed with 28.

2015, 28th in rushing, 58th with 26 sacks allowed

2016, 80th in rushing, 85th with 28 sacks allowed

2017, ND finished 7th in rushing with a dominant rushing team, but also had a running QB in Wimbush so they ran all the time, yet they still finished 83rd with 30 sacks allowed

Jeff Quinn:

2018, 51st in rushing, 49th in sacks allowed with 25

2019, 45th in rushing, 12th in sacks allowed with 16

2020, 24th rushing, 61st in sacks allowed with 26.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Yeah and people gave Mike Frank a ton of shit in that thread for 1) leaving off data points [for example sacks allowed in 2013] and 2) picking stats that say virtually nothing about how well the line played. I'm not going to get into the weeds on it because I'm pretty busy at work, but the advanced stats show quite clearly the same thing our eyes do -- that overall Hiestand's lines blew Quinn's out of the water. It wasn't close.

I will do it for you, since I was curious and wanted to look it up. Below is the FO line metrics by year (2014 first year available). Numbers are national ranking, for standard downs line yards, passing downs line yards, % of carries that generate 4 yards, Power success, stuff rate, adj sack rate


2014 - 69, 42, 24, 44, 42, 30
2015 - 36, 3, 4, 58, 87, 56
2016 - 102, 8, 46, 16, 30, 95
2017 - 11, 20, 11, 38, 22, 65
2018 - 88, 120, 112, 23, 121, 38
2019 - 78, 42, 81, 106, 70, 16
2020 - 67, 9, 30, 32, 15, 82
2021 - 63, 86, 87, 83, 67, 84

There is also the total line yards, weighing all of these together versus the rest of the country. Overall Line Yards rank by year.

2014 - 32
2015 - 2
2016 - 18
2017 - 5
2018 - 106
2019- 62
2020 - 26
2021 - 70

Yea....it's not close. It's actually quite embarrassing for Quinn.

 

[Dale]

Obviously the rushing stats are impacted by the RB but I’ve always somewhat disregarded sack #s. QB makes a massive difference. Many examples of OLs one year to the next or even within season doing a 180 on their sack rates based off QB change.

 

[IrishLax]

I will do it for you, since I was curious and wanted to look it up. Below is the FO line metrics by year (2014 first year available). Numbers are national ranking, for standard downs line yards, passing downs line yards, % of carries that generate 4 yards, Power success, stuff rate, adj sack rate


2014 - 69, 42, 24, 44, 42, 30
2015 - 36, 3, 4, 58, 87, 56
2016 - 102, 8, 46, 16, 30, 95
2017 - 11, 20, 11, 38, 22, 65
2018 - 88, 120, 112, 23, 121, 38
2019 - 78, 42, 81, 106, 70, 16
2020 - 67, 9, 30, 32, 15, 82
2021 - 63, 86, 87, 83, 67, 84

There is also the total line yards, weighing all of these together versus the rest of the country. Overall Line Yards rank by year.

2014 - 32
2015 - 2
2016 - 18
2017 - 5
2018 - 106
2019- 62
2020 - 26
2021 - 70

Yea....it's not close. It's actually quite embarrassing for Quinn.

Awesome, thank you! 2020 was the only year that even compared to Hiestand.

I think it's reasonable to question whether Hiestand is the right long term choice for ND, but no doubt in my mind that if Patterson comes back next year and the line is healthy he is going to have them crushing some fools. Fisher - Kristofic - Patterson - Spindler/Lugg - Alt is going to be dominant.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Awesome, thank you! 2020 was the only year that even compared to Hiestand.

I think it's reasonable to question whether Hiestand is the right long term choice for ND, but no doubt in my mind that if Patterson comes back next year and the line is healthy he is going to have them crushing some fools. Fisher - Kristofic - Patterson - Spindler/Lugg - Alt is going to be dominant.

Yea, especially when you consider the running threat of TB. If he can develop to being a serviceable throwing threat, the offense could take a really big jump from this year.

Also, w/r/t 2020, it would be the fourth best line for Harry. It's hard to fathom really considering how we all held that line to such esteem.

 

[BabyIrish]

SIAP but ISD put together some stats on Heistan's time at ND. Not as exciting as you'd think..

Harry Hiestand:

2013, ND finished 80th in rushing.

2014, 68th in rushing, 70th in sacks allowed with 28.

2015, 28th in rushing, 58th with 26 sacks allowed

2016, 80th in rushing, 85th with 28 sacks allowed

2017, ND finished 7th in rushing with a dominant rushing team, but also had a running QB in Wimbush so they ran all the time, yet they still finished 83rd with 30 sacks allowed

Jeff Quinn:

2018, 51st in rushing, 49th in sacks allowed with 25

2019, 45th in rushing, 12th in sacks allowed with 16

2020, 24th rushing, 61st in sacks allowed with 26.

Sorry but I’m also calling bullshit on your stats. Are you really going to chalk the 2017’s line performance to Brandon Wimbush? Josh Adams was going to be a heisman finalist if it weren’t for the injury he sustained after the NC St game. And we know Adams wasn’t a shifty runner that made you miss. It’s because of the consistent massive holes that the line was opening up for him.

 

[IrishRazor82]

Sorry but I’m also calling bullshit on your stats. Are you really going to chalk the 2017’s line performance to Brandon Wimbush? Josh Adams was going to be a heisman finalist if it weren’t for the injury he sustained after the NC St game. And we know Adams wasn’t a shifty runner that made you miss. It’s because of the consistent massive holes that the line was opening up for him.

The stats are just the stats and more interesting than I thought. Don't need to get hyper, I haven't offered an opinion.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Sorry but I’m also calling bullshit on your stats. Are you really going to chalk the 2017’s line performance to Brandon Wimbush? Josh Adams was going to be a heisman finalist if it weren’t for the injury he sustained after the NC St game. And we know Adams wasn’t a shifty runner that made you miss. It’s because of the consistent massive holes that the line was opening up for him.

And Adams led the nation in yards after contact.

 

[IrishRazor82]

I will do it for you, since I was curious and wanted to look it up. Below is the FO line metrics by year (2014 first year available). Numbers are national ranking, for standard downs line yards, passing downs line yards, % of carries that generate 4 yards, Power success, stuff rate, adj sack rate


2014 - 69, 42, 24, 44, 42, 30
2015 - 36, 3, 4, 58, 87, 56
2016 - 102, 8, 46, 16, 30, 95
2017 - 11, 20, 11, 38, 22, 65
2018 - 88, 120, 112, 23, 121, 38
2019 - 78, 42, 81, 106, 70, 16
2020 - 67, 9, 30, 32, 15, 82
2021 - 63, 86, 87, 83, 67, 84

There is also the total line yards, weighing all of these together versus the rest of the country. Overall Line Yards rank by year.

2014 - 32
2015 - 2
2016 - 18
2017 - 5
2018 - 106
2019- 62
2020 - 26
2021 - 70

Yea....it's not close. It's actually quite embarrassing for Quinn.

Thanks for posting this. The "% of carries that generate 4 yards" is a really interesting and stark comparison.

 

[BabyIrish]

And Adams led the nation in yards after contact.

Right, because he was so big and fast he could run through tackles at the second level pretty easily. For instance, against UNC he got 60 yards of YAC after breaking a tackle on a safety 15 yards past the line of scrimmage. That occurred on 99% of his big runs.

 

[Dale]

I don’t see that Adams led in YAC. He was near the tops but PFF had him 6th in yard after contact and 18th, really 3rd if you eliminate guys that had barely any carries, in yards after contact per attempt. He had 300 less yards after contact than Jonathan Taylor.