Bowl Game - Anyone else sitting out?

[Rogue219]

The money isn't the problem. What triggers some of you folks more is WHO is getting it.

 

[ab2cmiller]

pOSU

 

[Free Manera]

Of all the fanbases, we should be most sympathetic to guys sitting out. Remember Jaylon Smith? Does anyone think his pro career turned out the way it could have? How many millions of dollars will his injury end up costing him?

This is entertainment to us. It has no impact on our livelihood.

We can't say the same for players like Hamilton and Williams. They are virtually guaranteed to make millions of dollars, imminently. By playing they would literally risk it all, with nothing to gain from it, for our entertainment.

 

[NDPhilly]

Oh shit my bad. Too many “OSUs.”

No, no one from Oklahoma State is opting out. There are no top tier draft prospects on their team.

An argument could be made that late round picks "need" to sit out more than 1st round picks. For a fringe guy, a torn ACL could be the difference between ever getting a practice squad spot & salary. Even if a guy like Kyle Hamilton tears his ACL, he's still going to be a top 2-3 round draft pick.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

He is wrong though. The power 5 isn’t professional football. The NFL-factory-like success of OSU, Bama and (formerly?) Clemson doesn’t mean everything is bad and sucks.

Pretending Kyren’s decision is some stain on his character or the integrity of CFB in general is dumb as hell. Anybody that watched him avoiding defender after defender in the backfield for the first six games of the season could see that, as could anyone that watched the star RB of a top-5 team fielding punts late in the year, or picking up blitzers. He always did his job with 100% effort… I don’t fault him for sitting out and getting ready for the next step. He earned it with his effort and his conduct as a representative of the ND brand, IMO.

This.

There is nothing selfish about a kid taking advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity to cash in after years of hard work. Literally no one in the program, teammates or staff, are faulting him or Hamilton for sitting out this bowl game, so what do fans really have to gripe about? How many of us have had a chance to ink a contract worth MILLIONS of dollars, let alone at the age of 20-21?

Quit acting like you can relate and calling a kid selfish for taking advantage of an opportunity millions of kids can only dream about.

I'm baffled that people literally witnessed Jaylon Smith, who was a top five LOCK, blow up his knee in the Fiesta Bowl against OSU and now the guy is on his couch on Sundays rather than playing. Even if he didn't pan out as a top five pick before the injury, do you have any idea how much guaranteed money he lost out on between being drafted top five and 34th overall?

They put in years of sweat equity to be put in this position and the last thing they should be concerned about is letting down some fan with a shitty "how dare them" take.

 

[dublinirish]

An argument could be made that late round picks "need" to sit out more than 1st round picks. For a fringe guy, a torn ACL could be the difference between ever getting a practice squad spot & salary. Even if a guy like Kyle Hamilton tears his ACL, he's still going to be a top 2-3 round draft pick.

ah but the difference in salary runs into the millions

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The straw-manning against those alarmed by this decision is ridiculous. I can't recall a single post calling out Kyren for selfishness, or claiming we're somehow "entitled" to see him play in the bowl game. For my part, I think this was likely driven by his agent, and our RB room is stacked, so I don't hold this against Kyren personally and think we'll be fine.

But KHam and Kyren are the first two ND players to ever opt out of a bowl. That's not a good thing no matter how hard you try to spin it. And the fact that Kyren is a healthy captain makes it even worse.

My concern is over team culture. If Kyren ran this by his teammates and got their blessing before making the decision, then no harm. If he didn't, then he absolutely deserves shit for it.

We've weathered these recent storms well largely because of our outstanding culture. Allowing individuals to put themselves above the team, for whatever reason, is the quickest way to destroy that culture. That's all.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

The straw-manning against those alarmed by this decision is ridiculous. I can't recall a single post calling out Kyren for selfishness, or claiming we're somehow "entitled" to see him play in the bowl game. For my part, I think this was likely driven by his agent, and our RB room is stacked, so I don't hold this against Kyren personally and think we'll be fine.

I may be wrong, but I think their final games were playoff games. Not exactly the same thing.

I am torn on the idea of players sitting prior to the Draft to protect themselves from injury. This will likely be helped by the introduction of an expanded playoff. More games that “matter” at the end of the year, with championship implications.

From a personal aspect I don’t fault Kyren at all because I have seen mocks with him landing between the 2nd and 4th round. With the bowl games meaning less, it makes sense to preserve your future payday.

On the other hand, it feels wrong because it is in fact selfish, and hurts the teams chances for success in the bowl game. With that being said, I’m sure if I was staring down the barrel of an NFL contract I would make the selfish decision too, which is probably the right one from a risk/reward perspective.

I'm not just calling out IB28, I've seen several posters call the opt-out move selfish across multiple threads as the rumors were swirling that KH and KW might sit out.

 

[Sea Turtle]

This.

There is nothing selfish about a kid taking advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity to cash in after years of hard work. Literally no one in the program, teammates or staff, are faulting him or Hamilton for sitting out this bowl game, so what do fans really have to gripe about? How many of us have had a chance to ink a contract worth MILLIONS of dollars, let alone at the age of 20-21?

Quit acting like you can relate and calling a kid selfish for taking advantage of a dream millions of kids can only dream about.

I'm baffled that people literally witnessed Jaylon Smith, who was a top five LOCK, blow up his knee in the Fiesta Bowl against OSU and now the guy is on his couch on Sundays rather than playing. Even if he didn't pan out as a top five pick before the injury, do you have any idea how much guaranteed money he lost out on between being drafted top five and 34th overall?

They put in years of sweat equity to be put in this position and the last thing they should be concerned about is letting down some fan with a shitty "how dare them" take.

Hopefully it won't matter.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

RBs aren't the valued positions they once were in the NFL. The window of opportunity for most RBs is one, maybe two contracts before a lot of teams move on. Not only that, the days of first or second round RBs are mostly over, so if he did in fact get a middle round grade, that's likely as good as Kyren is going to get, even if he plays in the bowl game or comes back next year.

If he blows out his knee, not only is his draft window gone this year, but who knows how he comes back from that. He's done all he can do here.

Congratulations to the young man, go get your money. Thanks for the memories.

 

[Irish#1]

The fact that we have two guys sitting out says volumes about where the program is compare to years past. I don't expect this to change things a lot because of the programs culture and the kids that want to come to ND. McCaffery sat out in 2016 and people said you would see this great rush by players to do the same. The numbers of kids doing this since 2016 isn't that great and hasn't appeared to have big impact on CFB and the bowls. With playoff expansion it may even shrink.

 

[ab2cmiller]

ah but the difference in salary runs into the millions

Exactly. If last year's #5 pick fell to the end of the 1st round, they would've lost 19 million dollars. Make a ton of sense for someone expected to be drafted in the top half of the first round to sit out. Makes less sense for someone else expected to be drafted in the later rounds.

 

[Rogue219]

ND just rattled off how many wins without Kyle Hamilton? Kyren is a bigger loss, for sure, but they can still win this game without him. National Championship likely not. KH is the top guy at his position and is being projected as a Top Five pick. It's a no brainer. He doesn't owe anyone anything: fans, coaches, university, whomever.

Kyren is probably top four at his position and that's still not knowing who else is coming out into the Draft, but you can put at most three RB in front of him right now. RB only have so many carries in their bodies from beginning to end of their careers. Wilson and Olave are receivers. Way less mileage on their bodies now and way less goes on in the pros versus being a running back.

As far as Edge Rushers go, I don't know where Foskey would rate, but I would think he needs to play in this game regardless and show some things on film against a good team versus the other two guys. I could be completely wrong. Edge guys are the two Michigan kids and the Oregon kid. The guy from Purdue is probably up there too.

 

[Rogue219]

My concern is over team culture. If Kyren ran this by his teammates and got their blessing before making the decision, then no harm. If he didn't, then he absolutely deserves shit for it.

There is a fine line between culture and control. I can appreciate his dedication if he wanted to do this, but the idea that Kyren Williams would need the blessing of 84 other scholarship players who he will likely never play with in the NFL along with a group of walk on players strikes me as something that is almost detrimental to where this program eventually wants to go under it's new leadership. That's a massive red flag with recruiting and if any such process where to actually take place, I hope the other programs don't find out about it knowing how they'd use that information against the program. In the end, I think it's entirely unnecessary. Do we draw the line just here or should this include transfers, injuries, picking a coarse load each semester?

We have assistant coaches making high six figures now and coordinators getting paid multi million dollar contracts per year. None of them have to ask anyone's permission to leave other than their wives. The players should consult with their parents, coaches and whatever adults they consider to be their mentors they wish to seek advice from. They might not be adults, come from where I come from or not look like me but having athletic potential shouldn't limit them to make choices for themselves.

At the end of the day, this football program is a football program, and for too long it has been about everything other than or after football. You can come here and win a National Championship, get to the NFL and make money; and in addition you can earn a degree that is going to take you beyond the gridiron.

I just find it puzzling that in a society that has screamed individualism and money for five decades somehow young athletes don't get afforded those same pursuits in the eyes of so many.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I just find it puzzling that in a society that has screamed individualism and money for five decades somehow young athletes don't get afforded those same pursuits in the eyes of so many.

It's because: (1) the culture of an effective football team is more analogous to that of a military company than a business; and (2) individualism is poisonous to such cultures.

The coaches can and should get dragged when they act like mercenaries. That's not an argument for encouraging the players to do the same.

 

[AlaskanIrish]

It's because: (1) the culture of an effective football team is more analogous to that of a military company than a business; and (2) individualism is poisonous to such cultures.

The coaches can and should get dragged when they act like mercenaries. That's not an argument for allowing the players to do the same.

I agree with your straw-manning point, although I respectfully don't entirely agree with your position, however well-articulated--all good.

To culture going forward: What made me feel better about this under MFMF was that, at the press conference, he seemed to indicate KW and KH had made their decisions before even speaking to him. He further said that if he was asked, he would have encouraged them to play. Does that similarly make you feel optimistic about his approach going forward?

 

[Irish du Nord]

I just find it puzzling that in a society that has screamed individualism and money for five decades somehow young athletes don't get afforded those same pursuits in the eyes of so many.

Just because society at large screamed it doesn’t mean every person in the society agreed with it (I assume you don’t either, by your tone). I don’t think we should hold people to standards that they disagree with from the outset.

And to be clear, I’m not saying Kyren nor Kyle did anything wrong. Just saying there is non-hypocritical room for certain people to criticize people for making selfish decisions (I’m thinking more of people criticizing Kelly here)

 

[Rogue219]

It's because: (1) the culture of an effective football team is more analogous to that of a military company than a business; and (2) individualism is poisonous to such cultures.

The coaches can and should get dragged when they act like mercenaries. That's not an argument for allowing the players to do the same.

The problem is they don't get dragged. The process was given the name "Coaching Carousel." It is annual, it's expected, it's accepted and to be frank I really don't take issue with it either. I didn't have a problem with how Brian Kelly came to ND and I don't have a problem with how he left.

There isn't a single person on this board that wouldn't do what is best for them in a given situation. College athletes are no different in that respect, but those decisions are highly visible and looked upon completely differently be it consciously or subconsciously.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

For people to say "this is the first time ND has had players opt out," I don't think that's really applicable to our culture as a program.

CMC started the trend in 2016 when he opted out of Stanford's bowl game. That is literally the point in time when BK turned the program around for this historic five year run.

2017 (2018 draft) : Q and Mike could've sat out but didn't, both went in the top 10.
2018 (2019 draft): We played in the CFP, so null and void.
2019 (2020 draft) highest drafted players were Cole Kmet and Chase Claypool, both in the 2nd round.
2020 (2021 draft): we played in the CFP, so null and void.


So we are really talking about two, MAYBE three or four if you include Claypool and Kmet, who were in the conversation of sit-out candidates. You could also argue that Claypool and Kmet had the opportunity to improve their stock by playing against the Cyclones as well. There is literally nothing Kyren could do against Oklahoma St to improve his stock.

I honestly don't think this is a shift in culture at ND, more so than it's a shift in the talent that we've recruited and developed, coupled with the fact that we aren't playing in the CFP this year.

Kyren, in my opinion, is a little different given he is playing RB and I've already laid out why that's quite different than other position groups opting out for a mid-round grade.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's a good thing for players to do this. However, it's the direction the sport has headed, and to act like ND should be any different, or it's affecting our culture negatively...I just don't think that's fair or accurate. It's a justifiable decision for players to make given the current climate of college football.

 

[Free Manera]

Dragging "culture" into this is kind of a reach. The players aren't dummies. They have known for a long time that KW and KH were likely sitting out, and they are probably happy for their boys. They also probably know they would do the same thing if the roles were reversed.

 

[BeatSC]

Manti Teo came back for his senior year and I think he got extra respect for it. I don’t like using the Jaylin Smith example as it (if I recall correctly) was a non contact WTF type of injury) that could have easily happened during prep drills. I do get the correlation of a serious injury to his draft status. I would say Kyren with a good game improves his draft stock and credibility as someone who puts team first. With that said I’m sure he has his agent looking after him. I would just say it would be awkward to be in the sideline when you could be in the field.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

Manti Teo came back for his senior year and I think he got extra respect for it. I don’t like using the Jaylin Smith example as it (if I recall correctly) was a non contact WTF type of injury) that could have easily happened during prep drills. I do get the correlation of a serious injury to his draft status. I would say Kyren with a good game improves his draft stock and credibility as someone who puts team first. With that said I’m sure he has his agent looking after him. I would just say it would be awkward to be in the sideline when you could be in the field.

JaylOn Smith's was definitely a contact injury at the hands of Taylor Decker, currently a Detroit Lion. (see 4:00 of the video). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5keKcfVyZM

Please explain how Kyren can improve his draft stock. He has back to back 1,000 yard seasons, is a proven pass blocker and receiver out of the backfield. Is he going to magically improve his 40 time between now and the bowl game? Is he going to grow a few inches?

His production is tried-and-true. Claypool, Kmet, etc had loads of potential but weren't exactly second round locks. Claypool especially had a monster game against the Cyclones, going for 130+ and a TD, and both helped their stock with really positive combine numbers.

 

[AlaskanIrish]

Manti Teo came back for his senior year and I think he got extra respect for it. I don’t like using the Jaylin Smith example as it (if I recall correctly) was a non contact WTF type of injury) that could have easily happened during prep drills. I do get the correlation of a serious injury to his draft status. I would say Kyren with a good game improves his draft stock and credibility as someone who puts team first. With that said I’m sure he has his agent looking after him. I would just say it would be awkward to be in the sideline when you could be in the field.

I would call it an unnecessary, after the play was clearly dead, hit by Taylor Decker. 4:00 into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5keKcfVyZM

 

[Rogue219]

A lot to unpack here.

An injury during a game is an injury regardless of how it occurs. If you're shut down, you're shut down. Jaylon Smith was likely a first round pick and the only reason he turned out to be a second round pick was that Jerry Jones took a chance on him. The only other team that would act in such a manner is maybe the Raiders? Jaylon got really, really lucky. He's a cautionary tale not just for ND players but for all players alike.

Manti came back for his senior year only to wind up being catfished and went 38th overall in the second round. The 2012 Draft there were 33 LB drafted and five were taken prior to the 38th whereas in 2013 Manti was the third LB taken of 27 total. I don't know that going out for him at the time was a wise choice. He may have fallen further than 38th the year before and the ILB position is a lot like RB in this NFL. There isn't as much value there now as there is in edge rushers or DBs.

The flipside to running for 150 yards in the Fiesta Bowl is the OkSU defense completely shuts him down and that's the lasting impression scouts have of him prior to the Combine and workouts. I don't know that NFL scouts and front offices are going to put tremendous stock into one game when it comes to drafting a player. Is there more to gain or lose by KW playing in the Fiesta Bowl? The obvious answer is he has more to lose.

He's a team guy and he's got the balls. He needs to show he's got the brains and not take an unnecessary risk by playing in this game. Then he goes to the NFL and shows them he's not going to take unnecessary risks as a pro by making foolish choices when it comes to his body and his off the field activities. Brains and balls are for business. This is business. That's all it is. This is as much a part of his "forty year decision" as a degree that gets him some desk job when he's done playing.

 

[IrishLion]

It's because: (1) the culture of an effective football team is more analogous to that of a military company than a business; and (2) individualism is poisonous to such cultures.

The coaches can and should get dragged when they act like mercenaries. That's not an argument for encouraging the players to do the same.

My argument would be that guys like Williams and Hamilton have done so much good for the culture of the program, that any potential harm caused by their sitting out the bowl game is a non-factor.

Kyren deciding to sit out the Fiesta Bowl and prepare for the draft doesn't erase the example he has set for the young RB's about how to handle their business, an example he has backed up and put on display in many different ways. He's making a decision based in individualism, but it really can't be that poisonous to the culture of the program based on how much good he's already done... and also based on the fact that his teammates likely understand why he's making the decision, and their performance likely won't be affected in a negative way at all. Diggs, Estime, Tyree, etc., are more likely to work even harder to achieve the baseline that Kyren has established, imo, than they are to loaf and become 'me-first' guys.

I'd also speculate that Kyren wouldn't be sitting out if he knew he'd be leaving ND with no good options at RB, but that's probably just giving him the benefit of the doubt to further my argument (though his passion for the game and the team makes me feel good with my educated guess).

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The problem is they don't get dragged. The process was given the name "Coaching Carousel." It is annual, it's expected, it's accepted and to be frank I really don't take issue with it either. I didn't have a problem with how Brian Kelly came to ND and I don't have a problem with how he left.

I drag them, and I take issue with it. You can't expect loyalty if you're not willing to give it.

There isn't a single person on this board that wouldn't do what is best for them in a given situation.

I economically disadvantage myself for the sake of duty all the time. This cynical posture of proclaiming everyone a whore is really tiresome.

College athletes are no different in that respect, but those decisions are highly visible and looked upon completely differently be it consciously or subconsciously.

It's a shitty trend, and I don't have to applaud the trickle down of this corruption from the top.

Dragging "culture" into this is kind of a reach. The players aren't dummies. They have known for a long time that KW and KH were likely sitting out, and they are probably happy for their boys. They also probably know they would do the same thing if the roles were reversed.

There are hundreds of people still working and sacrificing so we can beat Okie Stat on January 1st. The idea that some just get to opt of that as soon as the Sunday Syndicate decides it suits them concedes way too much. "Oh, but MONEY! I'm sure you understand." FOH.

 

[RDU Irish]

Outside of the playoffs I have no problem with kids preparing for the draft and skipping a bowl game. I kind of prefer it as back ups get a full month of first team practice reps and a quality start to build on for next year. I am excited to see the RB production in particular - future is now!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My argument would be that guys like Williams and Hamilton have done so much good for the culture of the program, that any potential harm caused by their sitting out the bowl game is a non-factor.

Kyren deciding to sit out the Fiesta Bowl and prepare for the draft doesn't erase the example he has set for the young RB's about how to handle their business, an example he has backed up and put on display in many different ways. He's making a decision based in individualism, but it really can't be that poisonous to the culture of the program based on how much good he's already done... and also based on the fact that his teammates likely understand why he's making the decision, and their performance likely won't be affected in a negative way at all. Diggs, Estime, Tyree, etc., are more likely to work even harder to achieve the baseline that Kyren has established, imo, than they are to loaf and become 'me-first' guys.

I'd also speculate that Kyren wouldn't be sitting out if he knew he'd be leaving ND with no good options at RB, but that's probably just giving him the benefit of the doubt to further my argument (though his passion for the game and the team makes me feel good with my educated guess).

Having a healthy captain sit out of a big bowl game is a dangerous precedent to set. We can spin up all sorts of justifications to absolve Kyren now, but this will come back to bite us in the ass soon if it's normalized.

 

[BobbyMac]

Was hoping to see Houdini run one last time but I'm more excited to see Diggs, Estime and Buchner split his carries.

 

[BobbyMac]

I drag them, and I take issue with it. You can't expect loyalty if you're not willing to give it.



I economically disadvantage myself for the sake of duty all the time. This cynical posture of proclaiming everyone a whore is really tiresome.



It's a shitty trend, and I don't have to applaud the trickle down of this corruption from the top.



There's are hundreds of people still working and sacrificing so we can beat Okie Stat on January 1st. The idea that some just get to opt of that as soon as the Sunday Syndicate decides it suits them concedes way too much. "Oh, but MONEY! I'm sure you understand." FOH.

I really don't want to care about the trend and then you remind me what's right is right. You're real good at that chit.

(Nice FOH drop at the end by btw, well played)