Offensive Line Thread

Whiskeyjack

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I don't disagree with the general premise but the coaches are also responsible for recruiting. So if we aren't getting enough of the blue chippers I'm still looking at the coaches. One in particular, starts with D and ends with el. And Quinn is also responsible for the very poor offensive line play to date.

Yes, you can always recruit better. Even Saban would say as much. But it matters what your baseline is. ND will never ever recruit like 'Bama and OSU do.

But as a small private school, Clemson is a much fairer comparison for us. The main difference there is a couple of 1st round picks at QB. We're not far off.
 
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Dale

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Yes, you can always recruit better. Even Saban would say as much. But it matters what your baseline is. ND will never ever recruit like 'Bama and OSU do.

But Clemson, as a small private school, is a fair comparison. The main difference there is a couple of 1st round picks at QB. We're not far off.

Clemson a small private school or Notre Dame a small private school or both?
 

zelezo vlk

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Yes, you can always recruit better. Even Saban would say as much. But it matters what your baseline is. ND will never ever recruit like 'Bama and OSU do.

But Clemson, as a small private school, is a fair comparison. The main difference there is a couple of 1st round picks at QB. We're not far off.

Clemson University is a public land-grant research university in Clemson, South Carolina. Founded in 1889, Clemson is the second-largest university in student population in South Carolina.
25,822 (Fall 2019)[SUP][3][/SUP]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemson_University
 

Whiskeyjack

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Poorly worded, sorry. Since ND is a small private school, Clemson is a fairer comparison for us.
 

Rogue219

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Definitely can't blame him for injuries, at least not IMO. However, the OLine should be more than 1 deep, no? It doesn't even look 1 deep right now. That's bad. And that's on him. Again, IMO. And for the record, I think Driskell is a petulant toddler.

Yes, but I don't think most fans take into account how much of a dropoff there is between the first and second string at most schools outside of maybe 3-4 programs. Injuries typically come down to fluke bad luck. One on the OL is enough, but when you get 2 or more, you're shuffling things around and plugging leaks with your fingers. The second string guys are not starting for a reason.

I wasn't a huge fan of Jeff Quinn's hiring and I honestly thought he hung around as an analyst because he was going to be the next OC. I was glad he didn't get OC in the end. I suppose we'll see what the results are this year, but any indication that Harry Hiestand's influence is still in this program is long gone. These are Quinn's guys and if it turns out that he's been living off of the recruiting and development of the guy before him, he might need to go.

I am not all that surprised based on what they lost and what they had returning, though. If this turns out to be a disaster, maybe he has to go. If not, next year is going to tell us a lot about where they're at. I personally found it odd that this past cycle had so many top targets on it that live in Wisconsin. This could all catch up to the program quickly.
 

Luckylucci

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There is a lot to this conversation so it's impossible to convey it all in one post but here my best efforts, lol.

This is 100% on the coaches. Because it's either an evaluation issue, a developmental issue, or a combination of both. The coaches evaluate, recruit, and develop the talent that they currently have. Right now, we're living with those missed evaluations and/or lack of development. So, the coaches should be taking responsibility for this in some manner. Max accountability time for them. I said in the gameday thread, this can be a watershed moment for Quinn. I truly believe that. And, I think he should be given the opportunity to change it. Maybe make it a group effort since the results at the present are so bad.

The question then becomes, what should they do about it? And, like stated above, I don't think this is a situation where anybody, ex. Quinn, should lose their job over. Ultimately, I think the solution is to remove all the egos, seniority, and get back to forcing accountability in the room regardless of age. Creating more competition will create more accountability.

I think Lugg is a very good, if not the best, example of this. Someone within the program has seen him virtually everyday for 4+ years. He's a 4 star prospect, former HS AA, and 5th year Senior. There is that evaluation, development issue, or both. Maybe he actually needed those reps at RT that I was clamoring for them to give him during camp. And, if he couldn't get those reps in because of health. Then maybe he shouldn't have been penciled in as a starter and they should've went to someone else. The final answer very well might be, he's just not that good. Or, at least not good enough to have Veteran days during camp. But, it shouldn't take 4 years and two really important Camps to figure this out. How about Correll? I think he can be a very good C but he's an undersized OG and very inexperienced LG. Is it surprising when he never practiced LG during Spring camp? Madden is as known commodity as they're going to get. Plenty of evaluation had to or should have went into this. And here we are. Kristofic and Carroll. Both stud recruits, no meaningful starts. So far, busts. Evaluation and/or development. Tosh Baker, stud recruit not remotely ready to play as a Sophomore. And, let's just be honest with ourselves. We're not talking about these guys being busts or not playing on a good unit. Apparently, Kristofic and Carroll can't compete on a bad unit. Lugg is the best we have at RT. This is just epic level of failure for long stretches dating back to 2019.

And, that leads me too what I mentioned during Spring Camp. I really sensed a lack of urgency. Or a feeling that they were being very cavalier with the unit as a whole. And, I still feel that way. They just assumed that they had these studs on the roster and they'd just plug them in and coach them up. But, it's a lot harder than that. They need reps and lots of them. They grossly miscalculated the room they had and the ability for those guys to just play where they put them. Or, in some cases, for them to just play at all. But, like others, I got sucked in to the preseason hype of the team and expected that they'd "figure" it out.

And, Kelly's comments yesterday further cement these thoughts for me. I was very disappointed to see that he spent a lot of time scapegoating the OL struggles on having to "play the 3rd string LT" or Tosh Baker. If I was Tosh, I would point out that he's not the only one that isn't playing well. Accountability should start at the top. I'd much rather see coach point out that this is a room full of OL that need to play better and that they need to do a better job of coaching and developing them. Because that is the truth. ND is OL U because of it's standards. Those standards are achieved through accountability of performance and competition. Lugg should've never been handed a job. Correll should've never been the LG without more practice. And, if the answer is, we don't have anyone better then that's not Tosh Baker's fault but the entire offensive coaching staffs for their evaluations and development of the players they do have.

This is nothing short of a disaster at the present. And, like (I believe) NDAccountant stated, this will probably account for an epic failure or two this season. Could it have been avoided last March/April? Probably doubtful. But, it certainly didn't help being so cavalier with reps when it's crystal clear everybody, sans Patterson, needed more of them where they'd ultimately be playing. The real answer is always a lot further in the past, like recruiting since 2018-2019, but it's hard to not be frustrated with the present.
 

Luckylucci

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As far as short term solutions. I think you have to move Patterson off C and put Correll back at C. If Carmody is healthy then Patterson at LG. If not, LT. Full fledge battle for LG and RG between Spindler, Kristofic, and Madden. And, Lugg at RT should be next. I think they need to fast track Alt, Carmody, and Spindler development during the season. This will probably hurt but what we're watching hurts and isn't getting us better for next year.

Move on from Madden and Lugg unless they are significantly better than what's behind them. If the tape says they are just slightly better, need to move on. Get guys reps for the future so we aren't in this position in 1-2 years from now.
 

Sea Turtle

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There is a lot to this conversation so it's impossible to convey it all in one post but here my best efforts, lol.

This is 100% on the coaches. Because it's either an evaluation issue, a developmental issue, or a combination of both. The coaches evaluate, recruit, and develop the talent that they currently have. Right now, we're living with those missed evaluations and/or lack of development. So, the coaches should be taking responsibility for this in some manner. Max accountability time for them. I said in the gameday thread, this can be a watershed moment for Quinn. I truly believe that. And, I think he should be given the opportunity to change it. Maybe make it a group effort since the results at the present are so bad.

The question then becomes, what should they do about it? And, like stated above, I don't think this is a situation where anybody, ex. Quinn, should lose their job over. Ultimately, I think the solution is to remove all the egos, seniority, and get back to forcing accountability in the room regardless of age. Creating more competition will create more accountability.

I think Lugg is a very good, if not the best, example of this. Someone within the program has seen him virtually everyday for 4+ years. He's a 4 star prospect, former HS AA, and 5th year Senior. There is that evaluation, development issue, or both. Maybe he actually needed those reps at RT that I was clamoring for them to give him during camp. And, if he couldn't get those reps in because of health. Then maybe he shouldn't have been penciled in as a starter and they should've went to someone else. The final answer very well might be, he's just not that good. Or, at least not good enough to have Veteran days during camp. But, it shouldn't take 4 years and two really important Camps to figure this out. How about Correll? I think he can be a very good C but he's an undersized OG and very inexperienced LG. Is it surprising when he never practiced LG during Spring camp? Madden is as known commodity as they're going to get. Plenty of evaluation had to or should have went into this. And here we are. Kristofic and Carroll. Both stud recruits, no meaningful starts. So far, busts. Evaluation and/or development. Tosh Baker, stud recruit not remotely ready to play as a Sophomore. And, let's just be honest with ourselves. We're not talking about these guys being busts or not playing on a good unit. Apparently, Kristofic and Carroll can't compete on a bad unit. Lugg is the best we have at RT. This is just epic level of failure for long stretches dating back to 2019.

And, that leads me too what I mentioned during Spring Camp. I really sensed a lack of urgency. Or a feeling that they were being very cavalier with the unit as a whole. And, I still feel that way. They just assumed that they had these studs on the roster and they'd just plug them in and coach them up. But, it's a lot harder than that. They need reps and lots of them. They grossly miscalculated the room they had and the ability for those guys to just play where they put them. Or, in some cases, for them to just play at all. But, like others, I got sucked in to the preseason hype of the team and expected that they'd "figure" it out.

And, Kelly's comments yesterday further cement these thoughts for me. I was very disappointed to see that he spent a lot of time scapegoating the OL struggles on having to "play the 3rd string LT" or Tosh Baker. If I was Tosh, I would point out that he's not the only one that isn't playing well. Accountability should start at the top. I'd much rather see coach point out that this is a room full of OL that need to play better and that they need to do a better job of coaching and developing them. Because that is the truth. ND is OL U because of it's standards. Those standards are achieved through accountability of performance and competition. Lugg should've never been handed a job. Correll should've never been the LG without more practice. And, if the answer is, we don't have anyone better then that's not Tosh Baker's fault but the entire offensive coaching staffs for their evaluations and development of the players they do have.

This is nothing short of a disaster at the present. And, like (I believe) NDAccountant stated, this will probably account for an epic failure or two this season. Could it have been avoided last March/April? Probably doubtful. But, it certainly didn't help being so cavalier with reps when it's crystal clear everybody, sans Patterson, needed more of them where they'd ultimately be playing. The real answer is always a lot further in the past, like recruiting since 2018-2019, but it's hard to not be frustrated with the present.

I think this post is pretty spot on.

This program should not even be in this situation. Then when you take into account that we even got an AA Guard to transfer here and it's still a disaster? How bad would it have been with just the guys we recruited?

You said it, it's on the coaches. Poor recruiting, poor evaluation, poor development. It's almost like Kelly thought 'the OL was fireproof at that point and that he could just slide his buddy into place and nothing would change.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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There just aren't that many upper classmen on the team. Not including Madden, the bolded are guys still on the roster.

Lugg has had health issues forever, Patterson is very good, and most of the rest of those guys are in the NFL or part of a transitional class from when the old OL coach stopped recruiting. I certainly have questions about what's going on with Carroll and Kristofic. If they were hurt, would we know?

2017 Class
Hainsey 9605
Lugg 9443
Banks 9301
Gibbons 8847

2018 Class
Patterson 8912
Dirksen 8776
Luke Jones 8776
Cole Mabry 8655

2019 Class
Zeke Correll 9578
Quinn Carroll 9472
Kristofic 9254

Olmstead 9242

2020 Class
Tosh Baker 9549
Michael Carmody 9352


2021 Class
Fisher 9738
Spindler 9714
Caleb Johnson 8958
Joe Alt 8862
Pat Coogan 8701
 

Irish#1

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To miss on that many guys, I have a hard time believing this is an evaluation issue. Quinn will be gone after this season.
 

StPaul_Irish

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To miss on that many guys, I have a hard time believing this is an evaluation issue. Quinn will be gone after this season.


^THIS^

Also, if recruiting and evaluation were the root cause, then I am pretty sure 90% of the folks clambering about crappy recruiting on here are just as crappy of evaluators. I seem to remember a lot (most) of us being pretty fired up about most of these guys.
 

Sea Turtle

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^THIS^

Also, if recruiting and evaluation were the root cause, then I am pretty sure 90% of the folks clambering about crappy recruiting on here are just as crappy of evaluators. I seem to remember a lot (most) of us being pretty fired up about most of these guys.

I'm pretty sure that we are being kind when we add evaluation and recruiting to development as benefit of the doubt on criticisms to Quinn. At least I am.

Ok, they aren't being developed
 

Sea Turtle

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To miss on that many guys, I have a hard time believing this is an evaluation issue. Quinn will be gone after this season.

Me too but some posters on here believe that injuries and youth are the reason, so we are kind of turning over every stone. I agree. You don't just miss on that many guys.
 

SBirishlawyer

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And this current crop of recruits doesn’t wow me. Two are from Indiana and the other is a very long term commitment so I think we can keep those three in the class even with staff turn over. Also need to send out more offers. We need a class of 6 not 3. I think its clear Carroll and maybe a few more are never going to be more than practice depth.
 

NDRock

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Didn't PFF have us as the #1 OL last year and one of the highest they ever graded? This year was always going to be a down year, we basically had very few starts coming back. I do think Quinn dropped the ball with the '19 and '20 classes, especially only having 5 players left in those two years. Hopefully they get some things figured out.
 

NDisme

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To miss on that many guys, I have a hard time believing this is an evaluation issue. Quinn will be gone after this season.

Unfortunately I don’t see Kelly firing his guy Quinn hope I’m wrong, I wouldn’t mind hiring Chris Watt back as the Oline coach, might be young, not sure what he would bring as a recruiter. I knew him a little in HS (from the same area) he seemed like a good guy and I think can be a little salty which this line needs.
 

Dale

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Patterson today:

”We're over communicating and going back to base fundamentals”

“The biggest thing is getting back to the fundamentals.”
 

Wild Bill

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The oline deserves the criticism it's getting but I wonder how much this run game misses a guy like Tommy Tremble. You can do a lot of things in the run game if you have a guy like Tommy consistently moving defenders against their will at the point of attack. If you can go back and watch filim on the run game last year, I'm guessing you'd find we relied on him to run the ball more than any of us think.
 

BeauBenken

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Fellas, other than suggesting that Quinn Carroll and Kristofic are "misses", what misses are you blaming Quinn for? The current freshman class? The true sophomores?
 

Dale

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The 2018 recruiting class will go down as one of the more odd classes. It had top end talent with Griffith, Austin, Jurkovec, Simon, Lamb, Allen and Jayson A all in the Top 150. That’s more than the 2022 class has now and will potentially finish with. But that class wasn’t absurdly good because you had 13 (!!!) guys ranked as 88 3 stars or lower. Some solid contributors in that group but it was a oddly unbalanced class and 3 in that 88 or lower group were on the OL. The blue chips largely haven’t panned out. And so here we are.
 

Ndaccountant

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The oline deserves the criticism it's getting but I wonder how much this run game misses a guy like Tommy Tremble. You can do a lot of things in the run game if you have a guy like Tommy consistently moving defenders against their will at the point of attack. If you can go back and watch filim on the run game last year, I'm guessing you'd find we relied on him to run the ball more than any of us think.

Yes, agree. I mentioned that a few days ago. But I don't think it's just Tommy. It's the combination of Tommy and the threat of Book running. We all saw how much better the run game was with TB in the game. It really makes me wonder if the OL was as good as we thought. If TB could open that up with a sub-par line by most measures and reduced TE blocking from last year, was it really a truly dominating OL last year? Truth is usually in the middle and I think some of the shine of the last two years on the OL is starting to wear off a bit.
 

IrishLax

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There just aren't that many upper classmen on the team. Not including Madden, the bolded are guys still on the roster.

Lugg has had health issues forever, Patterson is very good, and most of the rest of those guys are in the NFL or part of a transitional class from when the old OL coach stopped recruiting. I certainly have questions about what's going on with Carroll and Kristofic. If they were hurt, would we know?

2017 Class
Hainsey 9605
Lugg 9443
Banks 9301
Gibbons 8847

2018 Class
Patterson 8912
Dirksen 8776
Luke Jones 8776
Cole Mabry 8655

2019 Class
Zeke Correll 9578
Quinn Carroll 9472
Kristofic 9254

Olmstead 9242

2020 Class
Tosh Baker 9549
Michael Carmody 9352


2021 Class
Fisher 9738
Spindler 9714
Caleb Johnson 8958
Joe Alt 8862
Pat Coogan 8701

Everything I have heard about Carroll is that he just hasn't developed athletically and does not move well enough to play D1 football. Sadly, Baker might end up in that same category when all is said and done. I know a lot of people who were super high on both coming in, and it's kind of shocking that Carroll isn't even in the conversation at guard right now.

Kristofic is allegedly "fine" but isn't super big, athletic, doesn't have long arms, etc. so he projects as an interior player and isn't better than the guys currently playing.

I've heard good things about Fisher, Spindler, Alt... so starting next season I think you will have some growing pains but at least 3 very competent NFL-future players on the line. Correll will likely be OK as center (even though he was a disaster at center last year), which means you just have to find an RG or get a transfer. I wouldn't be shocked to see one of the tackles slide in to RG. But I think we're a full two years away from a line that is of the caliber we have come to expect.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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Everything I have heard about Carroll is that he just hasn't developed athletically and does not move well enough to play D1 football. Sadly, Baker might end up in that same category when all is said and done. I know a lot of people who were super high on both coming in, and it's kind of shocking that Carroll isn't even in the conversation at guard right now.

Kristofic is allegedly "fine" but isn't super big, athletic, doesn't have long arms, etc. so he projects as an interior player and isn't better than the guys currently playing.

I've heard good things about Fisher, Spindler, Alt... so starting next season I think you will have some growing pains but at least 3 very competent NFL-future players on the line. Correll will likely be OK as center (even though he was a disaster at center last year), which means you just have to find an RG or get a transfer. I wouldn't be shocked to see one of the tackles slide in to RG. But I think we're a full two years away from a line that is of the caliber we have come to expect.

Do you think Gibbons would be starting if he had stayed?
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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Yes, agree. I mentioned that a few days ago. But I don't think it's just Tommy. It's the combination of Tommy and the threat of Book running. We all saw how much better the run game was with TB in the game. It really makes me wonder if the OL was as good as we thought. If TB could open that up with a sub-par line by most measures and reduced TE blocking from last year, was it really a truly dominating OL last year? Truth is usually in the middle and I think some of the shine of the last two years on the OL is starting to wear off a bit.

By the same token, the OL problems are exacerbated by the fact that defenses have been coming straight downhill the last two weeks. If ND does a better job of punishing them for it the OL will look better.
 

NDohio

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Yes, you can always recruit better. Even Saban would say as much. But it matters what your baseline is. ND will never ever recruit like 'Bama and OSU do.

But as a small private school, Clemson is a much fairer comparison for us. The main difference there is a couple of 1st round picks at QB. We're not far off.

Clemson has had one OL drafted since 2014 and that was a fourth rounder last year. Start getting the skill players, especially QB, and we are right there even with a down year at OL. I do agree that it is a worry for ND to not have a dominant OL since it is a strength of the program, but build up the skill positions and let's roll.
 
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