Police State USA

[tommyIRISH23]

Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...

Thank you. I appreciate it. The biggest shock to me wasn’t the data or the findings but the surprise from my advisors. Apparently the idea that violent crime rates would influence officer involved shootings was a crazy idea. It was pretty much written off as a influential variable by academia.

My reasons for doing the topic were pretty simple. I’ve been in that position many times. Going into a dimly lit area that is known for homicides, robberies, shootings, gangs, and assaults while responding to gun shots or a gun call is nerve racking. Cops are human, it’s literally impossible not to have a reaction to that type environment. I’d argue that it’d more of a concern if someone didn’t lol


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[irishff1014]

https://www.wboc.com/story/43778105...unced-clinically-deceased-will-be-organ-donor

It sucks anywhere but these are My people. This one of my police departments we work with in dispatch. This an agency my best friend of 20 plus years works for. This the town my family lives in. I am at a loss of words. I am angry, I am pissed and most of all I am heartbroken.

This just goes to show that a gun doesn’t have to be present for an officer to die. And you all can say what you want people that get locked up numerous times and use drugs over and over don’t change and this another case to prove it. On our case search this suspect has been charged with something 38 times and he just turned 30.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...

Just saying ..... he literally destroyed your previous post since you tried to to dilute deadly encounters with ALL police encounters. Based on his statement violent predispositions are way more likely to produce deadly outcomes than the mundane encounters you tries to include.


and I agree with his statement as well hence why I posted the series of stats showing the need for more data.

 

[Irish YJ]

https://www.wboc.com/story/43778105...unced-clinically-deceased-will-be-organ-donor

It sucks anywhere but these are My people. This one of my police departments we work with in dispatch. This an agency my best friend of 20 plus years works for. This the town my family lives in. I am at a loss of words. I am angry, I am pissed and most of all I am heartbroken.

This just goes to show that a gun doesn’t have to be present for an officer to die. And you all can say what you want people that get locked up numerous times and use drugs over and over don’t change and this another case to prove it. On our case search this suspect has been charged with something 38 times and he just turned 30.

Doesn't matter the situation, hate it for you Cack. Sorry, and only peace and love to you and your community. Politics sucks. You rock.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I think all of that is irrelevant. 10 million arrests are 10 million arrests. What does getting arrested multiple times have to do with anything? If a guy was arrested 3 times those events are stand alone events with different facts, crimes, location officer, ect.

Lol ok.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I used most of those studies for my research thesis to get my masters. Also, according to my research, violent crime rates SIGNIFICANTLY influence police deadly force. I used the most populated cities in each state, city level violent crime rates, and used the Washington Post deadly shooting tracker (at the time there was not federal tracking of deadly force but I think that has changed). The homicides were/are counted in the UCR rates ofcourse.

Other significant variables were resource deprivation, failing school, and urban plight in general. Makes sense though right? High crime areas are generally poorly lit with abandoned homes that are infested with drugs, gangs, and all kinds of other indicators of violent crime.

Gun violence and by extension police use of deadly force is the byproduct of economic problems. And neither democrats or republicans are remotely close to having the answers.


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Thanks for the additional insight. I think we all know that economic issues are apart but the degree of influence is something I’d like more info on. Could you link me those sources that I didn’t cite above for my own edification. As you may have read I am taking part in a community program aimed at getting cops and the community to listen to each other and I’d like some more firepower for discussions. It would be much appreciated.

 

[Trait Expectations]

Thank you. This post is great! Its safe to say this goes way beyond police reform...

It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations? Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.

 

[Irish#1]

The news is saying there is a huge shortage in the supply of ammo and many police forces are critically low. I guess our problem may be solved!

 

[Irish YJ]

It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations? Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.I

All of this.

We have to ignore politics and do multiple things.

At minimum....

1. ​​​​​​​don't shoot people that are defenseless and without weapons
2. prosecute LEOs to the fullest if they misuse powers
3. don't defend those that have guns and threaten LEO or others
4. BODY CAM FOR ALL LEOS.... WTF is simpler
5. stop silly defund stuff

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

"In selected countries" is the problem with your graph. It compares the US to some of the countries with the lowest crime rates. Sadly, the crime rate in the US for things like murder, rape, and assault - violent crime (not to mention drug related and property crime) - is MUCH more similar to that of some third world countries than that of Canada, Japan, and most of Western Europe. Many of our major cities look like scenes from war torn third world countries. Crime rates there are comparable to some of the worst places in Central America or Africa.

No it compares to it modern industrialized nations with high GDPs and well developed infrastructures and economies. I’d like a source on your claims above about america being on par with third world countries

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Thanks for the additional insight. I think we all know that economic issues are apart but the degree of influence is something I’d like more info on. Could you link me those sources that I didn’t cite above for my own edification. As you may have read I am taking part in a community program aimed at getting cops and the community to listen to each other and I’d like some more firepower for discussions. It would be much appreciated.

I’ll send you my bibliography if you’d like. I’ll see if I can PM it to you, if not, I can email it to you. What type of community do you live in and what’re some of the issues you’re facing?


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[Cackalacky2.0]

I’ll send you my bibliography if you’d like. I’ll see if I can PM it to you, if not, I can email it to you. What type of community do you live in and what’re some of the issues you’re facing?


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I live in Charleston. Let’s just say racial issues and huge income disparity in an urban setting plus it’s a historical center of slave trade, confederate symbols. Lots of history of the black population being oppressed and lots of reminders of it wherever you go. Lots of distrust as well.

Also is the place of the Walter Scott and Emanuel shootings

 

[tommyIRISH23]

It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

Yeah but those situations are very hard to mimic. No matter what the training scenario is, you still know it’s training. The stakes are significantly higher in real life. But more training is always good. Technology today makes training much more realistic.

And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations?

I don’t know what the national standard is for training. Overhaul is probably extreme, maybe more consistent training? The training I’ve received is pretty good. Again more hands on training is always a great idea.

Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

Yeah again more training would never hurt but it’s still just training. In a high stress situation you revert to your most basic, fundamental level of training. So yeah repetitive hands on training on tactical approaches and also on deescalation scenarios is a good idea .

The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.

Yeah this is the trillion dollar question. I don’t think there is one answer because it’s not just one question. It’s hundreds of questions with thousands of answers. A lot of those answers probably aren’t the answers that people want to hear either. It’s definitely not a good situation.

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[tommyIRISH23]

I live in Charleston. Let’s just say racial issues and huge income disparity in an urban setting plus it’s a historical center of slave trade, confederate symbols. Lots of history of the black population being oppressed and lots of reminders of it wherever you go. Lots of distrust as well.

Also is the place of the Walter Scott and Emanuel shootings

Wonderful city! I’ve been there a few times. It’s in my 20 year plan to move there (or Florida) once i retire haha. I’ll PM you and we can talk a little more and not hijack the thread


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[NorthDakota]

Wonderful city! I’ve been there a few times. It’s in my 20 year plan to move there (or Florida) once i retire haha. I’ll PM you and we can talk a little more and not hijack the thread


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Worth looking into Georgia as well. My folks looked at homes in Florida and Savannah, settled on Georgia. More house for your money apparently. I can't recall if Charleston was on their short-list or not, dad has spoken highly of it though.

 

[Blazers46]

Just saying ..... he literally destroyed your previous post since you tried to to dilute deadly encounters with ALL police encounters. Based on his statement violent predispositions are way more likely to produce deadly outcomes than the mundane encounters you tries to include.


and I agree with his statement as well hence why I posted the series of stats showing the need for more data.

Im beginning to think you have no clue what police are meant for.

Everything he listed as risk factors have nothing to do with policing except AS A RESULT it puts police in those situations where the the risk factors come to head.

Police do not control city lighting
Police do not control abandoned houses
Police do not bring the drugs into the community
Police do not control who becomes a gang member.

Socioeconomic problems are not because of the police. Socioeconomic factors and the RESULTS of those factors is typically where police get involved.

Parents, teachers, youth programs, educational programs, parental programs... the whole fucking community is responsible for the violent predispositions more than the police. Police are just there to clean the shit up. We are lazily talking police reform but forgetting the whole community.

My whole point in pointing out the number of interactions and then ALSO listing the number of higher stress moments between civilian and police in arrests is to point out police do things right a lot more than wrong. So much so that statistically it’s barely a thing.

 

[irishff1014]

All of this.

We have to ignore politics and do multiple things.

At minimum....

1. ​​​​​​​don't shoot people that are defenseless and without weapons
2. prosecute LEOs to the fullest if they misuse powers
3. don't defend those that have guns and threaten LEO or others
4. BODY CAM FOR ALL LEOS.... WTF is simpler
5. stop silly defund stuff

Body cams for all won’t happen until they get the funding for the servers and storage space to keep the videos. That’s where most of the money is spent.

 

[irishff1014]

Im beginning to think you have no clue what police are meant for.

Everything he listed as risk factors have nothing to do with policing except AS A RESULT it puts police in those situations where the the risk factors come to head.

Police do not control city lighting
Police do not control abandoned houses
Police do not bring the drugs into the community
Police do not control who becomes a gang member.

Socioeconomic problems are not because of the police. Socioeconomic factors and the RESULTS of those factors is typically where police get involved.

Parents, teachers, youth programs, educational programs, parental programs... the whole fucking community is responsible for the violent predispositions more than the police. Police are just there to clean the shit up. We are lazily talking police reform but forgetting the whole community.

My whole point in pointing out the number of interactions and then ALSO listing the number of higher stress moments between civilian and police in arrests is to point out police do things right a lot more than wrong. So much so that statistically it’s barely a thing.

I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.

 

[Bishop2b5]

No it compares to it modern industrialized nations with high GDPs and well developed infrastructures and economies. I’d like a source on your claims above about america being on par with third world countries

Hover your cursor over the various countries and it gives the homicide and rape rates for that country. Our numbers are comparable to those of several third world hell holes. It's not that police can't or shouldn't do a better job - they should - but police in the US are dealing with circumstances, cultural issues, and crime rates that Japan, Iceland, and most other wealthy and developed nations don't have to deal with.
Violent Crime Rates by Country 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)

 

[Irish#1]

Body cams for all won’t happen until they get the funding for the servers and storage space to keep the videos. That’s where most of the money is spent.

Servers and disk storage is a cop out if a city says they don't have the funding. Disk storage is dirt cheap anymore along with servers. Didn't Uncle Joe say part of his grand plan was to provide funding for cities to get body cams? If you're going to keep using your credit card, you might as well max it out, then ask for an increase in your credit limit.

 

[Irish#1]

I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.

It's easier to blame a group rather than take a hard look at the root and own up to it.

 

[Rocket89]

https://www.wboc.com/story/43778105...unced-clinically-deceased-will-be-organ-donor

It sucks anywhere but these are My people. This one of my police departments we work with in dispatch. This an agency my best friend of 20 plus years works for. This the town my family lives in. I am at a loss of words. I am angry, I am pissed and most of all I am heartbroken.

This just goes to show that a gun doesn’t have to be present for an officer to die. And you all can say what you want people that get locked up numerous times and use drugs over and over don’t change and this another case to prove it. On our case search this suspect has been charged with something 38 times and he just turned 30.

That is sad.

Now, imagine if someone said, "Well, you know only about 50 police officers are murdered while on duty each year from 300 million interactions" and then using this as a basis for why we really shouldn't care about that death toll. You know, cause statistically it's barely a thing anyway.

 

[Trait Expectations]

I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.

Who is not pro police? I haven't seen a single poster say anything resembling being anti-police. Have there been posts about reduced funding for police? or about how they are doing a terrible job? Or how they should be shut down? This is a serious question, I thought there were essentially two sides here: some saying the police do a good enough job, their issues are largely a statistical anomaly and trying to help them improve is pointless vs. the side that says the police force is doing what they can but we need to equip them with more. More training, more preparation, better pay, more transparency.

Of course, I haven't gone very far back and only entered into the discussion in the past couple weeks. What am I missing?

 

[GowerND11]

I have said for a long time that a lot of this is a product of teen pregnancy. You can’t have babies raising babies. How is one supposed to teach someone respect when the teacher doesn’t know what it is. Need to start holding people accountable like we used to do.

Baltimore had 4 shot before dinner today. And you won’t hear a single word about. If that was the police every news agency in every large city would be reporting on it.

The only thing I do know for sure is that this board is not Pro police.

You know the teen pregnancy rate has been continually falling right? I can't stand this whole "back in my day" bs. It doesn't help solve any issues, and it's disingenuous. You romanticize the past as if everything was so much better, when more often then not, the data doesn't back it up.

I'm also pretty sure, besides NJNP, this board is pro police, along with pro police reforms. No one here wants to abolish police. No one here is yelling Fuck the police! Your drive by shots like this are old.

 

[TorontoGold]

It's easier to blame a group rather than take a hard look at the root and own up to it.

This is 100% correct, blaming a group of people that have been historically disadvantaged by both parties and have faced discrimination throughout history is such a terrible cop out. Easy to blame the absent dad when you've thrown him in jail for trivial things. Privatized prison! Wooooooo

 

[Blazers46]

This is 100% correct, blaming a group of people that have been historically disadvantaged by both parties and have faced discrimination throughout history is such a terrible cop out. Easy to blame the absent dad when you've thrown him in jail for trivial things. Privatized prison! Wooooooo

I agree but also disagree. At some point there needs to be some accountability for ones own actions.

 

[TorontoGold]

I agree but also disagree. At some point there needs to be some accountability for ones own actions.

Of course, but when there is a profit motive to continue sending people to prison nothing really matters in terms of taking care of people and providing rehabilitation.

 

[Blazers46]

It is safe to say the problem is systemic but shouldn't we be helping the police force by giving them better and more consistent training in those kind of situations?

And I really appreciate the input Tommy, there are myriad issues at play. Do you believe an overhaul in training/continued training would help in these situations? Consider more hand-to-hand training, scenario based weapons work, etc. Anything to raise anxiety and put people in uncomfortable positions before requiring quick decisions. It would seem this would help to normalize the intensity response and allow better decision-making.

The other angle is that we need to raise people out of poverty and help communities and families grow stronger. If anyone has a real suggestion on how to do that, I'm all ears but people have been trying to solve that riddle for decades. I don't think "accountability" training in crime-ridden communities will have an effect.

On the first part. Yes. But when you say "these kind of situations" what are you talking about? More training in what? Do you not think the police are well aware of socioeconomic issues? They see it everyday. They are the middle man between bad governmental policy / socioeconomics and the results of those.

I kind of think a lot people see policing totally wrong. I sort of see this like saying we are blaming the trash guy for all the nations trash. The trash guys job is to collect the garbage and trasnport it to where its supposed to go. There is nothing that trash man can do to mitigate how much trash there is in the streets. I am in no way calling criminals trash... And I know more than enough to know police do more than "take out the trash". But their job is not really to mitigate or prevent crime, their job is to enforce laws.

To the second bolded... there is no acountability. The police are being held accountable for damn near everything. The same mayors and government officials bitching and moaning about their own police but totally forget their policies and lack of programming/education are the ones that need be accountable.

Here in NM we are way too nice to nonviolent offenders. I am in a "Group Me" group with local detectives and retail stores. Its main focus is loss prevention. Its the same guys all day long. We all know them by name and their mode of operation. The state and cities stick out their chest on the incarceration rates and populations on a rapide decline but totally ignore the increase in crime, especially on small business. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Blazers46]

Of course, but when there is a profit motive to continue sending people to prison nothing really matters in terms of taking care of people and providing rehabilitation.

There is still a cost and currently the prison population is on the decline. In fact violent crime rates have been on the way down the last 30 years, total arrest are down about 35% over the same time frame.

 

[Irish#1]

Who is not pro police? I haven't seen a single poster say anything resembling being anti-police. Have there been posts about reduced funding for police? or about how they are doing a terrible job? Or how they should be shut down? This is a serious question, I thought there were essentially two sides here: some saying the police do a good enough job, their issues are largely a statistical anomaly and trying to help them improve is pointless vs. the side that says the police force is doing what they can but we need to equip them with more. More training, more preparation, better pay, more transparency.

Of course, I haven't gone very far back and only entered into the discussion in the past couple weeks. What am I missing?

If you go back about a year. There were several that want defunding or changes that basically stripped police of most of their authority. I haven't seen them on here in a while though.


Edit: NJNP is one that GowerND11 mentioned.