Why I am a fan of Cleveland Sports?

[ACamp1900]

I get it, as a life long Pens fan, and life long Browns fan, who also HATES the Steelers and Buckeyes,... I totally get it.

 

[Luckylucci]

What makes a city "deserving" ?

This doesn't apply to people on IE but I have many friends that are from Ohio/Cleveland and they are some of the most ignorant and annoying sporss fans I have ever met. 90% of Cavs fans are also Ohio St. fans. We shit on Ohio St. fans on this site but all of a sudden those same people are deserving of a championship because it's the Cavs and not Ohio St.? Not IMO.

Maybe deserving wasn't the best word choice but in general, if it isn't going to be my team winning a championship, then I like seeing new teams or cities get those chances. Cool experience for a new set of fans. In this case, Cleveland hasn't had a lot of chances recently so its cool for them.

 

[gkIrish]

Maybe deserving wasn't the best word choice but in general, if it isn't going to be my team winning a championship, then I like seeing new teams or cities get those chances. Cool experience for a new set of fans. In this case, Cleveland hasn't had a lot of chances recently so its cool for them.

I prefer that the Spurs win every year if the Knicks don't win. The more success other cities (especially in the Eastern Conference) have, the harder it is for the Knicks to win. The last thing I want is for the Cavs to build a dynasty.

 

[BobbyMac]

You're very seriously underestimating how good Tim Duncan is. He's the best PF to ever live, 5x champ, 3x Finals MVP, 2x NBA MVP, 15x All Star, and one of the best defenders in basketball history. His career compares very favorably to Kobe's, the main difference being that Duncan didn't ride the most dominant physically dominant player of the last 30 year's coat tails to 3 of his titles.

No, I'm not. I didn't say he's not the best of his generation. I just inferred that your camp will have less than those who chose Kobe.

I can argue that stats say Mailman is the best PF of all time. Duncan's the best by awards. Personally, if I'm selecting a player to be my PF it would be Hakeem to play along side Kareem and Bird on the front line. With MJ and Magic in the backcourt.

Being old and being a basketball player, has it's advantages in these discussions.

...and when you're 20-22 y/o and average 23ppg you aren't riding coat tails. Pippen's in the HOF, averaged less and no one with a brain says that about him because MJ was 0-career without him. How many titles did Shaq win in Kobe's first three years when the Laker's were grooming him right out of high school? Shaq didn't win anything undtil Kobe's game was ready to make the Laker's champions.

 

[koonja]

Kobe was a transcendent talent that could dominate any game on any given night for ~7 years of his prime.

In 2005 he averages 35 PPG, 5 boards, 5 assists, and 2 steals. I love Kobe but I also like Duncan and I don't think it's an argument to be honest. Both great defenders, I really wish they could somehow have played together, because Kobe played best with smart players (Fisher, Pau).

Everyone freaking out about how great Lebron is and dismissing Kobe, who's last 5 years have been rough, need to go back and watch Kobe from 2005 to 2011. It's unlike any basketball you'll see outside of Jordan.

 

[BobbyMac]

Kobe was a transcendent talent that could dominate any game on any given night for ~7 years of his prime.

In 2005 he averages 35 PPG, 5 boards, 5 assists, and 2 steals. I love Kobe but I also like Duncan and I don't think it's an argument to be honest. Both great defenders, I really wish they could somehow have played together, because Kobe played best with smart players (Fisher, Pau).

Everyone freaking out about how great Lebron is and dismissing Kobe, who's last 5 years have been rough, need to go back and watch Kobe from 2005 to 2011. It's unlike any basketball you'll see outside of Jordan.

Unlike anything anybody your age has seen. Big O averaged 30ppg until he was 30. Had a triple double for his career average until he was 28. George Gervin scored more points over his best 5 years span than Kobe did. The 80's Sixers, Lakers, Celtics & Pistons would have beat all 5 of Kobe's championship teams. The list goes on...

I haven't even brought up Kareem or Wilt in their primes. They were aliens.

 

[koonja]

Unlike anything anybody your age has seen. Big O averaged 30ppg until he was 30. Had a triple double for his career average until he was 28. George Gervin scored more points over his best 5 years span than Kobe did. The 80's Sixers, Lakers, Celtics & Pistons would have beat all 5 of Kobe's championship teams. The list goes on...

I haven't even brought up Kareem or Wilt in their primes. They were aliens.

Serious QU, do you think Kobe's numbers would be the same if he played in the 60s and 70s and some 80s if he played at the same time as some of those you mentioned? My guess is he'd have been even more dominant. Point is, IMO, regardless of age, you can only compare players that played within ~ 20 years of one another because it gets too weird beyond that.

 

[NDohio]

Kobe was a transcendent talent that could dominate any game on any given night for ~7 years of his prime.

In 2005 he averages 35 PPG, 5 boards, 5 assists, and 2 steals. I love Kobe but I also like Duncan and I don't think it's an argument to be honest. Both great defenders, I really wish they could somehow have played together, because Kobe played best with smart players (Fisher, Pau).

Everyone freaking out about how great Lebron is and dismissing Kobe, who's last 5 years have been rough, need to go back and watch Kobe from 2005 to 2011. It's unlike any basketball you'll see outside of Jordan.

This is exactly why this conversation is almost impossible to have. When you are older you may understand this a little better, but part of your love for Kobe is because he was the guy doing great things during your impressionable years.

The underlined is laughable. Ever hear of a guy name Pete Maravich? He did things with the basketball for about a five year period that were absolutely unbelievable. Things that not many people have done since then.

If you combine the last three years of Dr. J's ABA career with the first five years of his NBA career, he transcended the game. No one played above the rim and with the aerial flair that he had prior to his arrival. He paved the way for the NBA's popularity to explode with Magic and Bird then on to MJ.

I am not saying they are better all-time players than Kobe, but they had short stints of long careers that matched what Kobe did well before you ever touched a basketball - LOL

Oh, and Kobe isn't even the greatest Laker - Kareem wins that everytime.

 

[Shamrock Theories]

Kobe was a transcendent talent that could dominate any game on any given night for ~7 years of his prime.

In 2005 he averages 35 PPG, 5 boards, 5 assists, and 2 steals. I love Kobe but I also like Duncan and I don't think it's an argument to be honest. Both great defenders, I really wish they could somehow have played together, because Kobe played best with smart players (Fisher, Pau).

Everyone freaking out about how great Lebron is and dismissing Kobe, who's last 5 years have been rough, need to go back and watch Kobe from 2005 to 2011. It's unlike any basketball you'll see outside of Jordan.

Good thing he won 6 MVP awards then... wait he only has 1?

Seasons with a shooting percentage of 47% or better:
Kobe: 0
LeBron: 12

Sorry man LeBron is better. More efficient scorer, better rebounder, much better passer.
The only thing Kobe had was playoff success.

LeBron just carried a CLEVELAND team to the first ever 3-1 finals comeback, against the 73-win defending champions, leading all players on both teams in all statistical categories.

 

[greyhammer90]

I prefer that the Spurs win every year if the Knicks don't win. The more success other cities (especially in the Eastern Conference) have, the harder it is for the Knicks to win. The last thing I want is for the Cavs to build a dynasty.

At this point I think it would be hilarious if LeBron spent every year switching between teams in the East and giving each team a one year window to win a championship. Im honestly having trouble thinking of an East team that wouldn't have a good chance of getting to the Finals with LeBron on board. Even the 76ers would have a decent chance.

 

[BobbyMac]

Serious QU, do you think Kobe's numbers would be the same if he played in the 60s and 70s and some 80s if he played at the same time as some of those you mentioned? My guess is he'd have been even more dominant. Point is, IMO, regardless of age, you can only compare players that played within ~ 20 years of one another because it gets too weird beyond that.

More dominant in the 80's? No. You will never find anyone who has been associated with the game to agree with that statement. 80's had better players - historic alpha dog Hall of Famers and NFL level defense, legal to hand check, lots of 7-0+ HOF erasers and the 3pt shot was not as big a part of the game. Kobe came along at the right time for him. He's coming off the bench of the Dream Team.

 

[IrishLax]

Kobe was a transcendent talent that could dominate any game on any given night for ~7 years of his prime.

In 2005 he averages 35 PPG, 5 boards, 5 assists, and 2 steals. I love Kobe but I also like Duncan and I don't think it's an argument to be honest. Both great defenders, I really wish they could somehow have played together, because Kobe played best with smart players (Fisher, Pau).

Everyone freaking out about how great Lebron is and dismissing Kobe, who's last 5 years have been rough, need to go back and watch Kobe from 2005 to 2011. It's unlike any basketball you'll see outside of Jordan.

Huh? Kobe was never even the best player in the league during any of those seasons per metrics that matter.

LeBron is 100x better than anything Kobe can even dream of being.

 

[koonja]

Huh? Kobe was never even the best player in the league during any of those seasons per metrics that matter.

LeBron is 100x better than anything Kobe can even dream of being.

Metrics, LOL. The most advanced metrics say James Harden is a top 3 NBA player.

Fact.

 

[BobbyMac]

This is exactly why this conversation is almost impossible to have. When you are older you may understand this a little better, but part of your love for Kobe is because he was the guy doing great things during your impressionable years.

The underlined is laughable. Ever hear of a guy name Pete Maravich? He did things with the basketball for about a five year period that were absolutely unbelievable. Things that not many people have done since then.

If you combine the last three years of Dr. J's ABA career with the first five years of his NBA career, he transcended the game. No one played above the rim and with the aerial flair that he had prior to his arrival. He paved the way for the NBA's popularity to explode with Magic and Bird then on to MJ.

I am not saying they are better all-time players than Kobe, but they had short stints of long careers that matched what Kobe did well before you ever touched a basketball - LOL

Oh, and Kobe isn't even the greatest Laker - Kareem wins that everytime.

While my last post is basically in step with your's I do have to point this out. Doc didn't pave the way for Bird & Magic. They did it all on their own when the '79 Championship drew a 24.1 share. Never been approached by a basketball game again. They saved the NBA all by themselves.

 

[gkIrish]

Metrics, LOL. The most advanced metrics say James Harden is a top 3 NBA player.

Fact.

Maybe metrics that don't incorporate defense...

 

[NDohio]

While my last post is basically in step with your's I do have to point this out. Doc didn't pave the way for Bird & Magic. They did it all on their own when the '79 Championship drew a 24.1 share. Never been approached by a basketball game again. They saved the NBA all by themselves.

Don't mistake my comment. I agree that those guys took it to a new level, but the style of play that Doc brought to the NBA from the ABA put more eyes on the league. Prior to Doc, the college game was a bigger deal than the NBA. IMO Doc was the foundation for the league to survive so Magic and Bird could make it thrive.


To Koon's point - Kobe would have been just another guard in the 80's. He would not have been anything special and the physicality of the game would have slowed him way down. The changes in the defensive rules from that era to today has made it much easier for a guard to be the dominate player in the game.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Kobe was a transcendent talent that could dominate any game on any given night for ~7 years of his prime.

In 2005 he averages 35 PPG, 5 boards, 5 assists, and 2 steals. I love Kobe but I also like Duncan and I don't think it's an argument to be honest. Both great defenders, I really wish they could somehow have played together, because Kobe played best with smart players (Fisher, Pau).

Everyone freaking out about how great Lebron is and dismissing Kobe, who's last 5 years have been rough, need to go back and watch Kobe from 2005 to 2011. It's unlike any basketball you'll see outside of Jordan.

My closest friend is the biggest Kobe fan I've ever talked to. He said LBJ>Kobe. And LBJ has years left in his career and Kobe's was over long ago.

 

[ACamp1900]

I have a friend of a friend that I have had to endure at a number of gatherings... Dude is the biggest Kobe backer you've ever seen... in fact take any athlete who has done anything wrong or has been generally disliked by any noticeable number of people (Kobe, Mayweather, Newton, Brady etc.) and that's his guy as a general rule...

Anyway, say anything about anyone other than Kobe being the greatest ever... forgot basketball... just ever, and prepare to not hear the end of it until you concede or the fight ends it. You'd think he was Kobe's mom or something.

When Kobe dropped what he did in his last game, while taking like half the shots in the damned game, all I could think was, "Geez now we will all never hear the freaking end of it next time "X" gets invited to "Y" "....

 

[koonja]

60.

 

[ACamp1900]

60.

Shots or points???

 

[GATTACA!]

Shots or points???

 

[Luckylucci]

Kobe benefited greatly from playing with Shaq in his prime.

 

[BobbyMac]

Don't mistake my comment. I agree that those guys took it to a new level, but the style of play that Doc brought to the NBA from the ABA put more eyes on the league. Prior to Doc, the college game was a bigger deal than the NBA. IMO Doc was the foundation for the league to survive so Magic and Bird could make it thrive.
.

I loved Doc. I Loved the 70's NBA but the TV numbers available on Google clearly support Bird & Magic being the only thing that moved the needle when it came to what made the NBA successful. Faces in front of the tv's and azzes in the seats.

 

[Rocket89]

Bill Simmons' Hall of Fame Pyramid--say what you want he knows his hoops--was published right before the 2009-10 season:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe (30 years old, finished 13th season)
9. West
10. Oscar
11. Hakeem
12. Shaq
13. Moses
14. Havlicek
15. Baylor
16. Doc
17. Pettit
18. Mailman
19. Barkley
20. LeBron (24 years old, finished 6th season)

Since then:

Kobe-
1 Title (5th overall)
4 straight top 5 MVP voting finishes
2 All-defensive 1st team
4 All-NBA 1st team
1 NBA Finals MVP

LeBron:
3 Titles (3 overall)
3 MVP awards (no worse than 3rd in voting since '08-09)
5 all-defensive 1st team
7 All-NBA 1st-team
3 NBA Finals MVP

Interesting look at things. Huge argument there if Kobe passed Duncan. The latter 2 years older. Kobe's 2009-10 through 2012-13 was better but Kobe fell off a cliff the last few years and Duncan kept trucking along at an All-Star level through 2015.

LeBron will sky rocket up these rankings. Maybe Top 4 after this recent run. The advanced stats love him even more. No. 2 all-time in player efficiency, No. 9 all-time in offensive win shares, No. 8 all-time in win shares, No. 1 all-time plus/minus, No. 1 all-time in VORP.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Why I am a fan of Cleveland Sports?

Bill Simmons' Hall of Fame Pyramid--say what you want he knows his hoops--was published right before the 2009-10 season:

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Kobe (30 years old, finished 13th season)
9. West
10. Oscar
11. Hakeem
12. Shaq
13. Moses
14. Havlicek
15. Baylor
16. Doc
17. Pettit
18. Mailman
19. Barkley
20. LeBron (24 years old, finished 6th season)

Since then:

Kobe-
1 Title (5th overall)
4 straight top 5 MVP voting finishes
2 All-defensive 1st team
4 All-NBA 1st team
1 NBA Finals MVP

LeBron:
3 Titles (3 overall)
3 MVP awards (no worse than 3rd in voting since '08-09)
5 all-defensive 1st team
7 All-NBA 1st-team
3 NBA Finals MVP

Interesting look at things. Huge argument there if Kobe passed Duncan. The latter 2 years older. Kobe's 2009-10 through 2012-13 was better but Kobe fell off a cliff the last few years and Duncan kept trucking along at an All-Star level through 2015.

LeBron will sky rocket up these rankings. Maybe Top 4 after this recent run. The advanced stats love him even more. No. 2 all-time in player efficiency, No. 9 all-time in offensive win shares, No. 8 all-time in win shares, No. 1 all-time plus/minus, No. 1 all-time in VORP.

Advanced stats are definitely important, but Bill Simmons himself said years ago "stat geeks a century from now will think Kevin Garnett was a better player than Tim Duncan, and that is obviously way wrong."


*Stats are a large piece of the puzzle, but merely a piece in the grand scheme of things. Stats alone bring us to asinine conclusions.

 

[Kingbish01]

You are the owner of an expansion team....You get first pick, who do you build your team around...Kobe or LeBron? Both are in their prime.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Why I am a fan of Cleveland Sports?

You are the owner of an expansion team....You get first pick, who do you build your team around...Kobe or LeBron? Both are in their prime.

More has to be taken into account than ability to win you titles. As the owner, you want a guy who can be the face of your franchise, is marketable, has a clean image, and is affable to the press and fans. One of those guys fits the bill more than the other, so if I'm taking everything into consideration, Lebron is the slam dunk choice, no pun intended.

 

[gkIrish]

You are the owner of an expansion team....You get first pick, who do you build your team around...Kobe or LeBron? Both are in their prime.

Lebron and it's not even close.

 

[greyhammer90]

You are the owner of an expansion team....You get first pick, who do you build your team around...Kobe or LeBron? Both are in their prime.

Lebron for the versatility alone. Lebron could be the best player at his best position at any given point in any era. In today's NBA he's the greatest PF alive. In ultra small ball situations he's a freakish center. In the smash era he would've been the greatest SF. He has the slashing ability of an elite SG and the vision and passing of an elite PG. James is a deficiency eraser, wherever you have a deficiency he can be plugged in and play at an all star level at minimum.

 

[KPENN]

First part is debatable. Kobe was the baddest man in the land for 5 years, 5 titles, and won 2 with less help than LeBron just did. Andrew Bynum is a 20 some year old DJ, and Kyrie >> Pau. Kobe did 2 with less let's see how many LeBron gets with a cakewalk to the finals.

Please, give LeBron those Laker teams when he was in Cleveland his first stint he wins a couple championships.